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1.02 Beta bugs - 6/2/2012 4:21:41 AM   
Razz1


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From: CaLiForNia
Status: offline 		Report your questions or bugs here
Post #: 1
RE: 1.02 Beta bugs - 6/2/2012 4:26:13 AM   
Razz1


Posts: 2560
Joined: 10/21/2007
From: CaLiForNia
Status: offline 		turn 87 German AI attack Russia
turn 88 load patch 1.02
turn 89 upkeep goes from 59 point to 825 per turn!

And that is only level 2!

took my 500PP in the bank and drove me negative to 302






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RE: 1.02 Beta bugs - 6/2/2012 4:41:48 AM   
Razz1


Posts: 2560
Joined: 10/21/2007
From: CaLiForNia
Status: offline 		Germany's upkeep more than tripled and is over 900 PP's per turn.

They are bankrupt too!




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Post #: 3
RE: 1.02 Beta bugs - 6/2/2012 7:36:42 AM   
doomtrader


Posts: 5321
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Which campaign is that?

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RE: 1.02 Beta bugs - 6/2/2012 4:06:03 PM   
Razz1


Posts: 2560
Joined: 10/21/2007
From: CaLiForNia
Status: offline 		That one is the Third Reich, but when I load up old Grand campaign 1939 it still has the same problem.

The Thirds Reich has it's own consist file and shouldn't even be reading the 1.02 file.

It is the same thing with the Grand campaign.

Here Germany which is 2x upkeep from previous turn. It matches income so Germany only gains 1/2 PP per turn

Russia more than doubled in the saved game too.




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RE: 1.02 Beta bugs - 6/2/2012 4:49:11 PM   
Razz1


Posts: 2560
Joined: 10/21/2007
From: CaLiForNia
Status: offline 		I loaded patch into vanilla TOF on different drive.
Added Third Reich. Game should not be reading path 1.02 file

For the above post, game is vanilla with 1.02 patch. Germany is AI. Date Feb 24 1941. War with Russia has started. Income is 401.5 vs upkeep of 401.08
Army composition for AI is follows:

5 AC, 22 AD, 44 C, 48 D, 9 MC, 16 MD

USSR is Human
Income 244 vs upkeep of 112 upkeep more than 2x after load
Army composition
15 AC, 10 AD, 82 C, 44 D, 9 MC, 9 MD


for German AI, army is a little small, country is bankrupt, can not research, and can not reinforce


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Post #: 6
RE: 1.02 Beta bugs - 6/2/2012 6:15:58 PM   
Razz1


Posts: 2560
Joined: 10/21/2007
From: CaLiForNia
Status: offline 		Okay, now I load in the German consist file into the saved game.

Here is the outcome:

income 401 vs Upkeep 662

Germany is bankrupt.

Clearly one can see by using the force composition above for German AI, there is now way you would want to reduce that by 65% just to balance the books. Then reduce that by another 20% so you have income to research and reinforce.

That would leave the German AI with
2 AC, 10 AD, 20 C, 22 D, 4 MC, 7 MD




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RE: 1.02 Beta bugs - 6/2/2012 7:14:41 PM   
Razz1


Posts: 2560
Joined: 10/21/2007
From: CaLiForNia
Status: offline 		The upkeep cost for the German army is way too high at

UpkeepCostModifierForArmy = 6

At the default of
UpkeepCostModifierForArmy = 0.5

Cost is 293 which is 3 PP more than stock vanilla

At the default of
UpkeepCostModifierForArmy = 0.6

Cost is 300 which is 7 PP more than stock vanilla

What is really needed is a hard core cap for the AI as it will continue to build until it goes bankrupt as previous test have confirmed.

So fix the typing error and add hard core limits for the AI as in the Third Reich and we have it made.

After the typing error is fixed then the human German player has a dilemma; they can no longer increase their current army size without sacrificing research and and losses on the battle field.

The only way to gain is through conquest.

The communist have very little to offer as Stalin has ordered industrial PP's to be transferred to Siberia.


You'll have to turn off the German AI production of army core slightly higher than this point and turn it back on when it is slightly lower than this in order to gve a good challenge to the human player.

The same point for the Russians, British, and Americans has to be found and implemented.




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Post #: 8
RE: 1.02 Beta bugs - 6/2/2012 9:48:42 PM   
doomtrader


Posts: 5321
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Could you please check new game?

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Post #: 9
RE: 1.02 Beta bugs - 6/2/2012 10:29:09 PM   
slaytanic

 

Posts: 66
Joined: 12/14/2011
Status: offline 		Could we get a clarification on new upkeep formulas? What are thresholds, force sizes or unit strength? Consts mentions tens of thousand as thresholds, in-game report has much smaller numbers. How is upkeep modified and when? Does UpkeepCostModifierForArmy multiply UpkeepPerOneStrengthPoint, how and when?



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Post #: 10
RE: 1.02 Beta bugs - 6/3/2012 4:47:10 AM   
Razz1


Posts: 2560
Joined: 10/21/2007
From: CaLiForNia
Status: offline 		Force size is the number of divisions on the map. Does NOT include units in the pool.

Div = 1
Corps = 3
Moto Div = 2
Moto Corps = 6
Armor Div = 3
Armor Corp = 9
Paratroop = 1

Level shows the the next level at which the cost for upkeep increases

total unit strength is the combat strength of the units on the map.

< Message edited by Razz -- 6/3/2012 4:51:25 AM >

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Post #: 11
RE: 1.02 Beta bugs - 6/3/2012 4:49:07 AM   
Razz1


Posts: 2560
Joined: 10/21/2007
From: CaLiForNia
Status: offline 		Consist file is not holding.

Here is a snap shot of Fall Gelb New game.
You can see that on turn one it used the German consist file.

Now save the game. Load it up and play a turn.

Then on turn 2 it reverted to the default consist file.




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< Message edited by Razz -- 6/3/2012 5:35:14 AM >

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Post #: 12
RE: 1.02 Beta bugs - 6/3/2012 4:50:09 AM   
Razz1


Posts: 2560
Joined: 10/21/2007
From: CaLiForNia
Status: offline 		Here is the next turn after a save.

This happens in every new scenario I start.




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< Message edited by Razz -- 6/3/2012 5:35:40 AM >

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Post #: 13
RE: 1.02 Beta bugs - 6/3/2012 10:29:07 AM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 2903
Joined: 6/30/2001
From: Bedfordshire UK
Status: offline 		Family weekend, so haven't had time to more than install a fresh copy of ToF with the 1.02b update. Current game running in another copy of the game using v1.01, with the Welk 1939 mod, Axis v AI.

Germany Stats Previous turn :

unit strength 508.46
upkeep 183.05
PP after upkeep 175.57

Ran a game turn in v1.01, no action from me, just let the AI go.

unit strength 515.17
upkeep 185.46
PP after upkeep 161.84

Reasonable progression from the previous turn, next I ran the same game turn in game copy with v1.02b

unit strength 515.49
upkeep 236.35
PP after upkeep 110.95

The higher upkeep may be WAD, but it's going to hurt, I see that I'm through the level 5 threshold and I was thinking of building more Axis forces for the Eastern summer offensive, hmmm !, rethink.

I will have to stay with v1.01 for now, otherwise it will sink this game, I need to run 1.02b with a fresh restart (provided it's working OK, re comments from Razz), to get the feel of how the penalties build up from the beginning, having the force threshold display will be very useful.

BTW the reports and info this game delivers are outstanding, you can really get into the detail quickly and easily, it's all very accessible.


< Message edited by Rasputitsa -- 6/3/2012 10:32:19 AM >

_____________________________

"In politics stupidity is not a handicap" - Napoleon

“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon

“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon

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Post #: 14
RE: 1.02 Beta bugs - 6/3/2012 12:43:21 PM   
slaytanic

 

Posts: 66
Joined: 12/14/2011
Status: offline
quote:

Force size is the number of divisions on the map. Does NOT include units in the pool.

Div = 1
Corps = 3
Moto Div = 2
Moto Corps = 6
Armor Div = 3
Armor Corp = 9
Paratroop = 1

Level shows the the next level at which the cost for upkeep increases

total unit strength is the combat strength of the units on the map.


Example for small countries: my force size is 39, level 0, so I pay 0,06*0,5=0,03 PP per 1 unit strength. I buy 2 more units so now my force size is 41, level 1. How is upkeep calculated now?

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Post #: 15
RE: 1.02 Beta bugs - 6/3/2012 1:07:04 PM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 2903
Joined: 6/30/2001
From: Bedfordshire UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

Family weekend, so haven't had time to more than install a fresh copy of ToF with the 1.02b update. Current game running in another copy of the game using v1.01, with the Welk 1939 mod, Axis v AI.

Germany Stats Previous turn :

unit strength 508.46
upkeep 183.05
PP after upkeep 175.57

Ran a game turn in v1.01, no action from me, just let the AI go.

unit strength 515.17
upkeep 185.46
PP after upkeep 161.84

Reasonable progression from the previous turn, next I ran the same game turn in game copy with v1.02b

unit strength 515.49
upkeep 236.35
PP after upkeep 110.95

The higher upkeep may be WAD, but it's going to hurt, I see that I'm through the level 5 threshold and I was thinking of building more Axis forces for the Eastern summer offensive, hmmm !, rethink.

I will have to stay with v1.01 for now, otherwise it will sink this game, I need to run 1.02b with a fresh restart (provided it's working OK, re comments from Razz), to get the feel of how the penalties build up from the beginning, having the force threshold display will be very useful.

BTW the reports and info this game delivers are outstanding, you can really get into the detail quickly and easily, it's all very accessible.



Replying to my own post - second thoughts - there are other features in the 1.02b update that are too useful to miss and the current game is an early winter turn, so I have the time to re-adjust to the new upkeep calculations, provided it's WAD and depending on how discussion goes on Razz's points.



_____________________________

"In politics stupidity is not a handicap" - Napoleon

“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon

“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon

(in reply to Rasputitsa)
Post #: 16
RE: 1.02 Beta bugs - 6/4/2012 3:58:34 AM   
gwgardner

 

Posts: 6722
Joined: 4/7/2006
Status: offline 		That's mean, Rasputitsa. 1.02b? Now you have me searching everywhere for 1.02b. Is there such an animule? The patch I got was 1.02. Did you simply mean 1.02 beta?

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Post #: 17
RE: 1.02 Beta bugs - 6/4/2012 8:23:33 AM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 2903
Joined: 6/30/2001
From: Bedfordshire UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner
That's mean, Rasputitsa. 1.02b? Now you have me searching everywhere for 1.02b. Is there such an animule? The patch I got was 1.02. Did you simply mean 1.02 beta?


Yup ! It's the beta, sorry, I have several versions running on the HDD and I carried over the label I use to name the latest beta update, expecting that the full 1.02 may turn up sometime.


_____________________________

"In politics stupidity is not a handicap" - Napoleon

“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon

“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon

(in reply to gwgardner)
Post #: 18
RE: 1.02 Beta bugs - 6/4/2012 2:32:55 PM   
doomtrader


Posts: 5321
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: offline 		IIUC Razz is playing his mod.
The upkeep system is going to work only with new games for standard scenarios.

For games already playing there would be a need to update the values, and I'm afraid we are not able to do it through events.
I'll back to this issue later today

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Post #: 19
RE: 1.02 Beta bugs - 6/4/2012 4:09:20 PM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 2903
Joined: 6/30/2001
From: Bedfordshire UK
Status: offline 		Thanks, I keep going with 1.01 for running games, but still interested in the enhancements in 1.02 Beta for new start scenarios.

_____________________________

"In politics stupidity is not a handicap" - Napoleon

“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon

“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon

(in reply to doomtrader)
Post #: 20
RE: 1.02 Beta bugs - 6/5/2012 4:19:10 PM   
slaytanic

 

Posts: 66
Joined: 12/14/2011
Status: offline 		Some strange things I noticed starting a fresh 1.02 game:

- loaded big nations as human players. On turn 2, only German thresholds are country specific, UK, Us, Ussr etc. all have default thresholds of 40, 60 etc
- I changed german specific UpkeepCostModifierForArmy to 1, but upkeep is still 36% of unit strength, same as with default modifier=6
- I changed adjacent defender modifier from 0,05 to 0,1 and 0,15 but the game still uses 0,05

I have the feeling that new changes have been added to consts but changing them has no effect, in other words default values are hardcoded and don't change

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Post #: 21
RE: 1.02 Beta bugs - 6/6/2012 3:26:38 AM   
Razz1


Posts: 2560
Joined: 10/21/2007
From: CaLiForNia
Status: offline 		As posted above in snap shots, you are correct.
consist file does not retain [UpkeepCost] data after saving then re-loading the game

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Post #: 22
RE: 1.02 Beta bugs - 6/12/2012 7:05:24 AM   
doomtrader


Posts: 5321
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: offline 		We are hoping to have this upkeep issue fixed this week and pass the files to Matrix.

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Post #: 23
RE: 1.02 Beta bugs - 6/12/2012 8:54:21 AM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 2903
Joined: 6/30/2001
From: Bedfordshire UK
Status: offline 		Thanks, really want to use this update for the other good features in it.

_____________________________

"In politics stupidity is not a handicap" - Napoleon

“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon

“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon

(in reply to doomtrader)
Post #: 24
RE: 1.02 Beta bugs Mulberry - 6/13/2012 4:43:07 AM   
Razz1


Posts: 2560
Joined: 10/21/2007
From: CaLiForNia
Status: offline 		Mulberry's do NOT work.

Save game. Reload. They are present and do not disappear, that is good.

However.....

They loose supply!

After the first turn out of supply... the second turn they disappear!

Also, Allies have a different value than Axis for Mulberry's.

Axis started at 30

Allies started at 13, then the next turn they were 22 and out of supply and then the next turn disappeared.

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Post #: 25
RE: 1.02 Beta bugs Mulberry - 6/13/2012 9:06:01 AM   
doomtrader


Posts: 5321
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: offline 		So Razz, are you saying that Mulberries are not delivering supplies?

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Post #: 26
RE: 1.02 Beta bugs Mulberry - 6/14/2012 2:57:34 AM   
Razz1


Posts: 2560
Joined: 10/21/2007
From: CaLiForNia
Status: offline 		Correct they do not deliver supplies and they disappear!

(in reply to doomtrader)
Post #: 27
RE: 1.02 Beta bugs Mulberry - 6/17/2012 11:51:22 AM   
cato13

 

Posts: 453
Joined: 6/29/2005
From: scotland
Status: offline 		getting fairly regular ctd's when clicking the previous/next units buttons. this is with the latest beta.

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Post #: 28
Reccon range ? - 6/17/2012 1:14:18 PM   
Meteor2


Posts: 429
Joined: 7/20/2009
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Playing GC as Germany.
I was able to seen units in Great Britain to Scotland in the north during the phase when other player were doing things (Slowakia).
When the turn for Germany was active these units were not visible.
A bug ???

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Post #: 29
RE: Reccon range ? - 6/17/2012 2:33:18 PM   
Meteor2


Posts: 429
Joined: 7/20/2009
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Correction:
It happened during the British-AI turn, that I was able to see units in Great Britain, Irak and Egypt. No german units nearby.

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Post #: 30
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