Slitherine

quote:

H-JAPAN
May 21, 2005


The book (Japan's Secret War) cites US National Archive sources, but simply as "NARA," as I
recall, with no identifying file numbers, making the notes completely
useless. Shortly after the hardcover edition came out I asked the
legendary John Taylor, chief of Modern Military at the Archives, and one
of the great resources in the field, what he knew of this. He said that if
I came across any material like it in my own research ( I was looking at
OSS X-2 (counterintelligence) in China and Japanese Intelligence at the
time), would I please bring it to his attention, as "nobody's been able to
find any of his sources." That was in 1990; and so far as I know, that is
still the situation. You can contact John Taylor at NARA for an update,
but I don't think anything has changed.

If you have access to JSTOR, the absence of any review would be revealing. My
own campus' connection is down at the moment; as soon as it's restored I'll
check it.

Henry Sirotin
Hunter College/C.W. Post

quote:

H-JAPAN
May 25, 2005

(1) From: "wgrund@bgnet.bgsu.edu" <wgrund@bgnet.bgsu.edu>

Here we go again.

I recall about ten years ago when Wilcox's book was reprinted that a
round of similar inquiries was floated on H-Japan. I had just returned
from a trip to DC where I was doing research for my dissertation on
this subject. This is a story that just won't die.

The bibliography in Wilcox's second edition provides a pretty good map
for primary and secondary sources in English on the subject. I was able
to find just about all the sources he used, with only a few exceptions.
To the best of my recollection, Wilcox never actually states that Japan
succeeded in building and testing a nuclear weapon, but he strongly
implies that they did.

After considerable research on the subject, both in the US and Japan, I
am firmly convinced that the Japanese did NOT succeed in testing (or
even building) a nuclear weapon. The Hungnam story likely began when
David Snell, a reporter for the Atlanta Constitution, wrote of his
encounter with a Japanese COUNTER-INTELLIGENCE officer after the war,
who alleged that Japanese scientists had tested a nuclear weapon off
the eastern coast of Korea. Wilcox rediscovered this article many years
ago when researching this subject. Apparently, however, he did not see
Snell's follow up article, where he all but retracted this story.

Nonetheless, Wilcox otherwise got a lot of the story correct, that
Japanese scientists were involved in nuclear research during the war.
Both the army and navy had comparatively small projects. But Wilcox
also neglected to include or account for much of the evidence that
would suggest that Japan DID NOT develop a nuclear weapon. This is
where his book, as work of professional scholarship and history, flies
off the rails. (And not because he isn't tenured somewhere.)

Furthermore, he introduces material referring to the atrocities of Unit
731, and the postwar cover-up, and by inference, suggests that facts
about Japan's nuclear research were similarly suppressed. This is
clearly not the case. Japanese scientists and others began to publish
articles about their wartime nuclear research activity as soon as the
US occupation ended. (The Japanese media had been prevented from
publishing anything about nuclear weapons and research, both US and
Japanese, by US occupation officials.) If you care to do the research,
you can find references to wartime nuclear research in Japan by
scientists, military officials, and historians (in Japanese) from as
early as 1946. But because Wilcox, and others, did not know of these
sources, it was as good as a conspiracy of silence.

I suspect we are seeing another round of interest in this subject
because we will be commemorating the 60th anniversary of the nuclear
attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki this year. We are certain to see
interest in this story emerge again in another ten years, fifteen, and
I suspect, in 2045. And so it goes…

As for Derek Price, he passed away several years ago. On the other
hand, I am happy to report that Eri Yagi is still very much alive and
enjoying her retirement teaching ballroom dancing (to the disabled no
less!)

For reviews of the Wilcox book, I recommend the following: John Dower's
Review of Robert Wilcox, Japan's Secret War, in Bulletin of Atomic
Scientists 43 (Aug.-Sept. 1986), 61-62; and Morris F. Low's, Japan's
Secret War? 'Instant' Scientific Manpower and Japan's World War II
Atomic Bomb Project, Annals of Science 47 (1990), 347-360.

On the Hungnam story, see Walter E. Grunden, Hungnam and the Japanese
Atomic Bomb: Recent Historiography of a Postwar Myth,”Intelligence and
National Security 13 (1998), 32-60.

For a brief, but accurate and scholarly account of Japan's wartime
nuclear research, John Dower's NI and F: Japan’s Wartime Atomic
Bomb Research, in Japan in War and Peace: Selected Essays (New York:
New Press, 1993), 55-100, is a good place to start.

For a more detailed account, see the chapters on science mobilization
and nuclear research in Walter E. Grunden, Secret Weapons & World War
II: Japan in the Shadow of Big Science (Lawrence: University Press of
Kansas, 2005), now available. Also, watch for a follow-up article in
Historia Scientiarum, co-authored by Masakatsu Yamazaki, Keiko-Nagase
Reimer, and Walter E. Grunden on this subject.

For a direct comparison of German and Japanese wartime nuclear research
efforts, see the article by Mark Walker, Masakatsu Yamazaki, and Walter
Grunden in the forthcoming issue of OSIRIS, available in July 2005.

Japanese scholars, such as Masakatsu Yamazaki and Yutaka Kawamura, have
been even busier researching and publishing on this subject, especially
from a more internalist perspective. For selected publications, see the
bibliography in my aforementioned monograph.

A documentary on Japan's wartime nuclear research is under production
by the History Channel and is scheduled for broadcast this summer.

I hope this overly long missive helps to clear up some confusion.

Most Sincerely,

Walter E. Grunden
Department of History
Bowling Green State University

quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

I am simply overwhelmed by all the convincing evidence provided by all the liddle kiddles in reference to the Japanese Atomic Bomb. I am especially indebted to mdiehl for taking his valuable time away from lecturing us on the truths of naval aviation to illuminating we lesser humans on the truths of Atom Bomb historical scholarship.

Damn !!, I love this forum.

quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

The Shock of Hiroshima
Tristan Grunow
University of Oregon

One critic who has spoken out against the Japanese atomic scientists
is Yamamoto Yo\ichi, of the 8th Army Research Division associated with
the “Ni-go\” project. Yamamoto has argued that the blame for the tragedies
of Hiroshima and Nagasaki rests solely on the scientists, because
they did not “fear” the bomb, and did not believe that the United States
could produce one.212 Yamamoto argues:
If the Japanese scientists’ thinking that production of atomic bombs was
not presently possible had not led them to deny as a rumor the American
announcement [the Potsdam Declaration] that the United States had
completed the bomb, Hiroshima and Nagasaki would not have been
bombed. The regrettable thing is, we then have no excuses for the victims
of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. If the scientists knew the dreadfulness
of the atomic bomb, simply because of the completion of the atomic
bomb, would there not have been an effort to take a step toward ending
the war?213

quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45

quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

I am simply overwhelmed by all the convincing evidence provided by all the liddle kiddles in reference to the Japanese Atomic Bomb. I am especially indebted to mdiehl for taking his valuable time away from lecturing us on the truths of naval aviation to illuminating we lesser humans on the truths of Atom Bomb historical scholarship.

Damn !!, I love this forum.

Now I am confused....

quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45

quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

I am simply overwhelmed by all the convincing evidence provided by all the liddle kiddles in reference to the Japanese Atomic Bomb. I am especially indebted to mdiehl for taking his valuable time away from lecturing us on the truths of naval aviation to illuminating we lesser humans on the truths of Atom Bomb historical scholarship.

Damn !!, I love this forum.

Now I am confused....

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

The Shock of Hiroshima
Tristan Grunow
University of Oregon

One critic who has spoken out against the Japanese atomic scientists
is Yamamoto Yo\ichi, of the 8th Army Research Division associated with
the “Ni-go\” project. Yamamoto has argued that the blame for the tragedies
of Hiroshima and Nagasaki rests solely on the scientists, because
they did not “fear” the bomb, and did not believe that the United States
could produce one.212 Yamamoto argues:
If the Japanese scientists’ thinking that production of atomic bombs was
not presently possible had not led them to deny as a rumor the American
announcement [the Potsdam Declaration] that the United States had
completed the bomb, Hiroshima and Nagasaki would not have been
bombed. The regrettable thing is, we then have no excuses for the victims
of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. If the scientists knew the dreadfulness
of the atomic bomb, simply because of the completion of the atomic
bomb, would there not have been an effort to take a step toward ending
the war?213

The bold/underlined part seems to indicate that the speaker, Yamamoto Yo\ichi, believes that the US announced the completion of the atomic bomb in the Potsdam Declaration. That is not true, though. The declaration mentioned "prompt and utter destruction" but that is hardly announcing the completion of a super-secret project, security leaks notwithstanding.

quote:


Sixteen hours ago an American airplane dropped one bomb on Hiroshima and destroyed its usefulness to the enemy. That bomb had more power than 20,000 tons of TNT. It had more than two thousand times the blast power of the British "Grand Slam" which is the largest bomb ever yet used in the history of warfare.

...

It is an atomic bomb. It is a harnessing of the basic power of the universe. The force from which the sun draws its power has been loosed against those who brought war to the Far East.

...

We are now prepared to obliterate more rapidly and completely every productive enterprise the Japanese have above ground in any city. We shall destroy their docks, their factories, and their communications. Let there be no mistake; we shall completely destroy Japan's power to make war. I

It was to spare the Japanese people from utter destruction that the ultimatum of July 26 was issued at Potsdam. Their leaders promptly rejected that ultimatum. If they do not now accept our terms they may expect a rain of ruin from the air, the like of which has never been seen on this earth ...

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45

quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

I am simply overwhelmed by all the convincing evidence provided by all the liddle kiddles in reference to the Japanese Atomic Bomb. I am especially indebted to mdiehl for taking his valuable time away from lecturing us on the truths of naval aviation to illuminating we lesser humans on the truths of Atom Bomb historical scholarship.

Damn !!, I love this forum.

Now I am confused....

You need to drink more!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf



japanese could have delivered a radiological or biological strike, but a fission device was beyond their capability

quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

The Shock of Hiroshima
Tristan Grunow
University of Oregon

One critic who has spoken out against the Japanese atomic scientists
is Yamamoto Yo\ichi, of the 8th Army Research Division associated with
the “Ni-go\” project. Yamamoto has argued that the blame for the tragedies
of Hiroshima and Nagasaki rests solely on the scientists, because
they did not “fear” the bomb, and did not believe that the United States
could produce one.212 Yamamoto argues:
If the Japanese scientists’ thinking that production of atomic bombs was
not presently possible had not led them to deny as a rumor the American
announcement [the Potsdam Declaration] that the United States had
completed the bomb, Hiroshima and Nagasaki would not have been
bombed. The regrettable thing is, we then have no excuses for the victims
of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. If the scientists knew the dreadfulness
of the atomic bomb, simply because of the completion of the atomic
bomb, would there not have been an effort to take a step toward ending
the war?213

The bold/underlined part seems to indicate that the speaker, Yamamoto Yo\ichi, believes that the US announced the completion of the atomic bomb in the Potsdam Declaration. That is not true, though. The declaration mentioned "prompt and utter destruction" but that is hardly announcing the completion of a super-secret project, security leaks notwithstanding.

Perhaps Yamamoto Yo\ichi convoluted the Potsdam Declaration with Truman's announcement of the bomb later in the day following the bombing of Hiroshima...in which Truman tied the atomic bomb to the Potsdam Declaration by stating:

quote:


Sixteen hours ago an American airplane dropped one bomb on Hiroshima and destroyed its usefulness to the enemy. That bomb had more power than 20,000 tons of TNT. It had more than two thousand times the blast power of the British "Grand Slam" which is the largest bomb ever yet used in the history of warfare.

...

It is an atomic bomb. It is a harnessing of the basic power of the universe. The force from which the sun draws its power has been loosed against those who brought war to the Far East.

...

We are now prepared to obliterate more rapidly and completely every productive enterprise the Japanese have above ground in any city. We shall destroy their docks, their factories, and their communications. Let there be no mistake; we shall completely destroy Japan's power to make war. I

It was to spare the Japanese people from utter destruction that the ultimatum of July 26 was issued at Potsdam. Their leaders promptly rejected that ultimatum. If they do not now accept our terms they may expect a rain of ruin from the air, the like of which has never been seen on this earth ...

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs
Conflating those two makes sense, yes.

BTW thanks for posting that stuff. Much better reading than secret sources you can't post but maintain a copy of at hand in case a black helicopter lands and demands to see them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs
Conflating those two makes sense, yes.

BTW thanks for posting that stuff. Much better reading than secret sources you can't post but maintain a copy of at hand in case a black helicopter lands and demands to see them.

Still a rather dubious arguement that it would have prevented Hiroshima/Nagasaki given the attitude of the Military running the Government. Even AFTER the two bombs had been dropped they wanted to continue the war..., so the notion that they would have agreed to surrender based on a warning from scientists about a weapon that no-one really understood is pretty "Pie-in-the-Sky".

quote:

Obviously, there was no initial consensus among Japanese scientists
that the Hiroshima bomb was atomic. Moreover, had the scientists immediately
acknowledged that the Hiroshima bomb was atomic, the Army
could possibly still have opted for a decisive homeland battle. As the
Army Military Affairs Bureau’s report to the National Diet suggests, the
atomic bombs would not have caused a change in Ketsu-Go\ plans. Yet,
since the scientists exacerbated the entrenched obstinacy of Japan’s
myopic leadership by assuring that atomic weapons would not, and
could not, be developed during the war, their dilatory influence should
certainly be factored into any discussion of the delayed Japanese surrender.
Had the military not been falsely led to believe that atomic weapons
were not a genuine threat during the war, they would have responded
much differently to the bombing of Hiroshima. If, in the wake of
Hiroshima, the military had immediately perceived that the bomb was
atomic, they could have sooner utilized the “face-saving” possibility of
the atomic bomb, and acquiesced to Foreign Minister To\go\’s entreaty for
peace on 7 August. In this case, the hundreds of thousands of casualties
and lives lost in the disaster of Nagasaki and the Russian invasion of
Manchuria would have been preventable. In the end, the real “shock of
Hiroshima,” then, was not from the destruction of the city or the introduction
of a “new and most cruel bomb,” but from the realization that
U.S. science had succeeded where Japanese science had failed. It was
this realization that made possible the emperor’s final decision to surrender.
If only it had come sooner.

quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


Still a rather dubious arguement that it would have prevented Hiroshima/Nagasaki given the attitude of the Military running the Government. Even AFTER the two bombs had been dropped they wanted to continue the war..., so the notion that they would have agreed to surrender based on a warning from scientists about a weapon that no-one really understood is pretty "Pie-in-the-Sky".

Not everyone within the government Mike...you need to refer to the final paragraph of the paper...

quote:

If, in the wake of Hiroshima, the military had immediately perceived that the bomb was atomic, they could have sooner utilized the “face-saving” possibility of the atomic bomb, and acquiesced to Foreign Minister To\go\’s entreaty for peace on 7 August.

quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45

What gets me about this thread, why did it even get started? This is all about a mod that is adding atomic bombs. I know over the years I have seen hundreds of comments where the answer was, "if ya want to change it there is an editor." I for one don't care if Cid wants to add nuc's to his mod. Yet we have 3 pages of comments, on a topic that is really unimportant.

quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45

What gets me about this thread, why did it even get started? This is all about a mod that is adding atomic bombs. I know over the years I have seen hundreds of comments where the answer was, "if ya want to change it there is an editor." I for one don't care if Cid wants to add nuc's to his mod. Yet we have 3 pages of comments, on a topic that is really unimportant.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45

What gets me about this thread, why did it even get started? This is all about a mod that is adding atomic bombs. I know over the years I have seen hundreds of comments where the answer was, "if ya want to change it there is an editor." I for one don't care if Cid wants to add nuc's to his mod. Yet we have 3 pages of comments, on a topic that is really unimportant.

true. Cid has the right to do whatever he wants in his mod and that of itself is no big deal. Cid simply doing a mod puts him far beyond our true collection of trolls such as Diehl, who i can see has chimed in, on a thread on the sub-forum devoted to mods and scenarios for a game he's never owned or played. I mention this only to highlight that I don't consider Cid a "troll" unlike our boy Diehl despite some comparisons.

That being said......when Cid presented post#2 on this thread, he started the chain of events that went beyond modding. He implied justifications for what he was doing in his mod to real world history and then did his usual wink wink.......i'm in the know unlike the bulk of the rest of humanity which given the subject matter is bound to rub someone's nose the wrong way. Admitedly some people's reactions did go a bit over the top but Cid's tendancy to mix self promotion and questionable to vague citations for justifying what he says followed by yet more self promotion about how his integrity, and of people's violent reactions being par for the course for ones who don't wish to expand their viewpoints...... can be argued as designed to entice a reaction in the same way that our true Trolls do. The Devil can quote scripture.....or cite facts, or cite "compelling evidence".....a favorite buzz term of trolls and non-trolls.

I actually took the time to read all 6000+ words of Cid's intentionally verbose contemplations trying to see if there was any merit to what he hinted at. if nothing else i found the "citations" he claimed were there and let others take it from there by posting them without them also having to go through a tiring exercise in concentration. Personally i was disapointed. Call it Cid bashing on my part but I at least gave him the benie of a doubt. Ultimately he can do whatever he wants in his mod. If he wants bio weapons and Jet stream baloon bombs, go for it. Modding is part of what WitP and WitP AE are all about. Ultimately if even one person downloads and likes his mod, then its a worthwhile effort for him.

When you try to cite some mod elements as historical however, you invite others to comment appropriately. All Cid needed to do at that point was post his evidence in succint fashion, bereft of his stories about himself and all the other tangents he goes on when he writes.....and let it be. However thats not what happened and the resultant Fubar was not unexpected as a result.

quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45

Thank you both, it makes more sense now.

quote:

Cid has the right to do whatever he wants in his mod and that of itself is no big deal. Cid simply doing a mod puts him far beyond our true collection of trolls such as Diehl,

quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

A thread started by Cid makes sense? How'd that happen? They sometimes make amusing reading..., but "making sense" is a new accomplishment...