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Reloading 16" guns - 6/9/2012 4:58:56 PM

Charbroiled

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From: Oregon
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I've been playing this game long enough, a person would think there isn't much left that could baffle me. Well, this is proof that you never stop learning this game. Here is the situation:

I have 3 Iowa class BB's anchored at Naha (Okinawa). Naha is a size 6 port with 450 naval support present.

According to page 285 of the manual, the reload cost for 16" guns at a size 6 port is 940. The reload level for a size 6 ports is 700. With 5 points per naval support, this brings the level up to 2950.....much larger than the 940 reload cost. I also have over 50k in supply at the base.

So, why are my 16" guns not reloading their ammo supply?

Is this a tech support issue, or is there something I'm overlooking?

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Post #: 1

RE: Reloading 16" guns - 6/9/2012 5:11:12 PM

Icedawg

Posts: 1610
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: Upstate New York
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charbroiled

I've been playing this game long enough, a person would think there isn't much left that could baffle me. Well, this is proof that you never stop learning this game. Here is the situation:

I have 3 Iowa class BB's anchored at Naha (Okinawa). Naha is a size 6 port with 450 naval support present.

According to page 285 of the manual, the reload cost for 16" guns at a size 6 port is 940. The reload level for a size 6 ports is 700. With 5 points per naval support, this brings the level up to 2950.....much larger than the 940 reload cost. I also have over 50k in supply at the base.

So, why are my 16" guns not reloading their ammo supply?

Is this a tech support issue, or is there something I'm overlooking?

Don't multiply by 5. I think those numbers in that table refer to the number of naval support elements/squads (not points) required to be present at the base.

(in reply to Charbroiled)

Post #: 2

RE: Reloading 16" guns - 6/9/2012 5:12:28 PM

Icedawg

Posts: 1610
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: Upstate New York
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Yeah, I just confirmed it is "squads", not "points".

See p284 of the manual.

(in reply to Icedawg)

Post #: 3

RE: Reloading 16" guns - 6/9/2012 5:15:00 PM

Justus2

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That chart means how much Nav Support over and above the port-provided amount is needed. 16" guns have a reload requirement of 5400, so they would need a Level 6 Port (700) plus 940 Naval Support squads (4700) to equal 5400 (which is a LOT of Naval Support). The easiest answer I have come up with are the big AEs that have 5400 cargo capacity for BB reloads, otherwise you are pretty limited to Port 7 or above.

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Post #: 4

RE: Reloading 16" guns - 6/9/2012 5:17:31 PM

Charbroiled

Posts: 1181
Joined: 10/15/2004
From: Oregon
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

Yeah, I just confirmed it is "squads", not "points".

See p284 of the manual.

So, it should be 5x per squad?

If so, that means I need at least 48 squads to bring the level above 940. I'll have to check when I get home, but it would seem I would have 48 squads for 450 naval points.....but maybe not.

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Post #: 5

RE: Reloading 16" guns - 6/9/2012 5:20:17 PM

Charbroiled

Posts: 1181
Joined: 10/15/2004
From: Oregon
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Justus2

That chart means how much Nav Support over and above the port-provided amount is needed. 16" guns have a reload requirement of 5400, so they would need a Level 6 Port (700) plus 940 Naval Support squads (4700) to equal 5400 (which is a LOT of Naval Support). The easiest answer I have come up with are the big AEs that have 5400 cargo capacity for BB reloads, otherwise you are pretty limited to Port 7 or above.

Are you sure about this? It is not how I read it on page 285.

The other thing I didn't mention. I have (4) fully loaded AEs anchored at Naha as well.

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Post #: 6

RE: Reloading 16" guns - 6/9/2012 5:37:24 PM

Icedawg

Posts: 1610
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From: Upstate New York
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Charbroiled

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

Yeah, I just confirmed it is "squads", not "points".

See p284 of the manual.

So, it should be 5x per squad?

If so, that means I need at least 48 squads to bring the level above 940. I'll have to check when I get home, but it would seem I would have 48 squads for 450 naval points.....but maybe not.

No, just count the number of squads. Forget multiplying by 5. The numbers in the rearm table are the number of squads required.

I think points are only used for loading/unloading and repair.

To answer your specific question though, you need 240 naval support squads plus the base value of 700 to bring you to your magic value of 940 needed to rearm the 16" guns.

(in reply to Charbroiled)

Post #: 7

RE: Reloading 16" guns - 6/9/2012 5:41:54 PM

Charbroiled

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From: Oregon
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charbroiled

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

Yeah, I just confirmed it is "squads", not "points".

See p284 of the manual.

So, it should be 5x per squad?

If so, that means I need at least 48 squads to bring the level above 940. I'll have to check when I get home, but it would seem I would have 48 squads for 450 naval points.....but maybe not.

No, just count the number of squads. Forget multiplying by 5. The numbers in the rearm table are the number of squads required.

I think points are only used for loading/unloading and repair.

To answer your specific question though, you need 240 naval support squads plus the base value of 700 to bring you to your magic value of 940 needed to rearm the 16" guns.

Gotcha. I'll look to see where I'm at when I get home this evening.

Do you know if the AEs provide a benefit at all at this point? As I said, I have (4) of them, but I'm not sure what size. I'm pretty sure they are all over 3000 capacity though.

BTW, thanks for the help!!

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Post #: 8

RE: Reloading 16" guns - 6/9/2012 5:49:49 PM

Icedawg

Posts: 1610
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From: Upstate New York
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Charbroiled

quote:

ORIGINAL: Justus2

That chart means how much Nav Support over and above the port-provided amount is needed. 16" guns have a reload requirement of 5400, so they would need a Level 6 Port (700) plus 940 Naval Support squads (4700) to equal 5400 (which is a LOT of Naval Support). The easiest answer I have come up with are the big AEs that have 5400 cargo capacity for BB reloads, otherwise you are pretty limited to Port 7 or above.

Are you sure about this? It is not how I read it on page 285.

The other thing I didn't mention. I have (4) fully loaded AEs anchored at Naha as well.

Take a look at the first sentence in section 20.1.2.2 (p284). It reads as follows. "The Rearm Table show the number of Naval Support squads, in different port . . . "

The AKEs probably don't have the capacity required to rearm. I only play as Japan, so I'm not sure of the capacities on the Allied AKE's, but the largest for Japan is only 4900, so it wouldn't be big enough. Also, don't make the same mistaken assumption I once made. AKEs don't add together either with each other or with the port. It's just each one taken alone. So, in order to rearm using the AKEs, at least one of them must have a capacity of 5400 to rearm your 16" guns.

Hope this helps.

(in reply to Charbroiled)

Post #: 9

RE: Reloading 16" guns - 6/9/2012 6:04:45 PM

Charbroiled

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From: Oregon
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charbroiled

quote:

ORIGINAL: Justus2

That chart means how much Nav Support over and above the port-provided amount is needed. 16" guns have a reload requirement of 5400, so they would need a Level 6 Port (700) plus 940 Naval Support squads (4700) to equal 5400 (which is a LOT of Naval Support). The easiest answer I have come up with are the big AEs that have 5400 cargo capacity for BB reloads, otherwise you are pretty limited to Port 7 or above.

Are you sure about this? It is not how I read it on page 285.

The other thing I didn't mention. I have (4) fully loaded AEs anchored at Naha as well.

Take a look at the first sentence in section 20.1.2.2 (p284). It reads as follows. "The Rearm Table show the number of Naval Support squads, in different port . . . "

The AKEs probably don't have the capacity required to rearm. I only play as Japan, so I'm not sure of the capacities on the Allied AKE's, but the largest for Japan is only 4900, so it wouldn't be big enough. Also, don't make the same mistaken assumption I once made. AKEs don't add together either with each other or with the port. It's just each one taken alone. So, in order to rearm using the AKEs, at least one of them must have a capacity of 5400 to rearm your 16" guns.

Hope this helps.

You have been a great help!! Thank You!!

I can't believe I haven't gotten a handle on this before, but it hasn't really been a problem until now. However, I only used size 6 or larger ports to rearm and I also used those size 6 ports as "collection point" for all ground units. I must have stockpiled enough naval supports units where this was never an issue.

I suspected that AE's were not combinable, but was not sure.

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Post #: 10

RE: Reloading 16" guns - 6/9/2012 8:06:58 PM

dr.hal

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From: Covington LA via Montreal!
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The safest thing to do is not fire the guns! End of problem...

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Post #: 11

RE: Reloading 16" guns - 6/9/2012 9:50:14 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Charbroiled

I suspected that AE's were not combinable, but was not sure.

Without checking by clickology I'd just suggest you check that the AEs are fully loaded with supplies. I put them in a support TF, click Do Not Unlaod on it, and load. I then disband them and re-load with the Resupply from Port button. My recolleciton is if they're in a TF and undisbanded you have to Reload at Sea. I don't remember how combining works, but four late-war AEs should be able to relaod your formation without breaking a sweat if they're loaded and in the right posture for the right button.

If they don't load fully it's an Ops Point issue and it will take two turns to get it done.

Good luck.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 6/9/2012 9:51:17 PM >

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Post #: 12

RE: Reloading 16" guns - 6/10/2012 12:08:37 AM

Icedawg

Posts: 1610
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From: Upstate New York
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charbroiled

I suspected that AE's were not combinable, but was not sure.

Without checking by clickology I'd just suggest you check that the AEs are fully loaded with supplies. I put them in a support TF, click Do Not Unlaod on it, and load. I then disband them and re-load with the Resupply from Port button. My recolleciton is if they're in a TF and undisbanded you have to Reload at Sea. I don't remember how combining works, but four late-war AEs should be able to relaod your formation without breaking a sweat if they're loaded and in the right posture for the right button.

If they don't load fully it's an Ops Point issue and it will take two turns to get it done.

Good luck.

I'm not sure that they combine. I thought I read something somewhere on these forums indicating that it was just an individual kind of thing (one ship to resupply - one AKE).

If they can combine, then I'm going to seriously reconsider how many of them I build (more) and how I use them.

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

Post #: 13

RE: Reloading 16" guns - 6/10/2012 12:54:55 AM

Charbroiled

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From: Oregon
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charbroiled

I suspected that AE's were not combinable, but was not sure.

Without checking by clickology I'd just suggest you check that the AEs are fully loaded with supplies. I put them in a support TF, click Do Not Unlaod on it, and load. I then disband them and re-load with the Resupply from Port button. My recolleciton is if they're in a TF and undisbanded you have to Reload at Sea. I don't remember how combining works, but four late-war AEs should be able to relaod your formation without breaking a sweat if they're loaded and in the right posture for the right button.

If they don't load fully it's an Ops Point issue and it will take two turns to get it done.

Good luck.

Just checked and all (4) AEs are 6400 capacity and are 100% full of supplies....and are not disbanded in port.

edit: It isn't an ops point issue.

< Message edited by Charbroiled -- 6/10/2012 12:58:20 AM >

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RE: Reloading 16" guns - 6/10/2012 12:57:03 AM

Charbroiled

Posts: 1181
Joined: 10/15/2004
From: Oregon
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charbroiled

I suspected that AE's were not combinable, but was not sure.

Without checking by clickology I'd just suggest you check that the AEs are fully loaded with supplies. I put them in a support TF, click Do Not Unlaod on it, and load. I then disband them and re-load with the Resupply from Port button. My recolleciton is if they're in a TF and undisbanded you have to Reload at Sea. I don't remember how combining works, but four late-war AEs should be able to relaod your formation without breaking a sweat if they're loaded and in the right posture for the right button.

If they don't load fully it's an Ops Point issue and it will take two turns to get it done.

Good luck.

I'm not sure that they combine. I thought I read something somewhere on these forums indicating that it was just an individual kind of thing (one ship to resupply - one AKE).

If they can combine, then I'm going to seriously reconsider how many of them I build (more) and how I use them.

I'm pretty sure that they don't combine as I have 25,600 total AE capacity at Naha. Now, one thing I didn't check is if the AE TFs were docked or undocked.....that might make a difference.

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Post #: 15

RE: Reloading 16" guns - 6/10/2012 1:23:29 AM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Charbroiled

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charbroiled

I suspected that AE's were not combinable, but was not sure.

Without checking by clickology I'd just suggest you check that the AEs are fully loaded with supplies. I put them in a support TF, click Do Not Unlaod on it, and load. I then disband them and re-load with the Resupply from Port button. My recolleciton is if they're in a TF and undisbanded you have to Reload at Sea. I don't remember how combining works, but four late-war AEs should be able to relaod your formation without breaking a sweat if they're loaded and in the right posture for the right button.

If they don't load fully it's an Ops Point issue and it will take two turns to get it done.

Good luck.

Just checked and all (4) AEs are 6400 capacity and are 100% full of supplies....and are not disbanded in port.

edit: It isn't an ops point issue.

Separate your BBs into three TFs and try to reload one of them. Does that work?

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Post #: 16

RE: Reloading 16" guns - 6/10/2012 1:27:42 AM

Charbroiled

Posts: 1181
Joined: 10/15/2004
From: Oregon
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charbroiled

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charbroiled

I suspected that AE's were not combinable, but was not sure.

Without checking by clickology I'd just suggest you check that the AEs are fully loaded with supplies. I put them in a support TF, click Do Not Unlaod on it, and load. I then disband them and re-load with the Resupply from Port button. My recolleciton is if they're in a TF and undisbanded you have to Reload at Sea. I don't remember how combining works, but four late-war AEs should be able to relaod your formation without breaking a sweat if they're loaded and in the right posture for the right button.

If they don't load fully it's an Ops Point issue and it will take two turns to get it done.

Good luck.

Just checked and all (4) AEs are 6400 capacity and are 100% full of supplies....and are not disbanded in port.

edit: It isn't an ops point issue.

Separate your BBs into three TFs and try to reload one of them. Does that work?

I separated one of them out and could not reload it....tried for 3 turns in a row.

< Message edited by Charbroiled -- 6/10/2012 1:28:02 AM >

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RE: Reloading 16" guns - 6/10/2012 1:33:50 AM

Charbroiled

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I'm still a bit confused about the word "squad" in regards to naval support.

The three units I have at Naha are:

101st USN BF - 200 naval support and 10 Rifle squads (only "squads" in the units).

23rd USN BF - (46) x 54 naval support, 10 rifle squads

2nd Eng Amph Bde - 200 Naval Support....no squads.

Looking through units with naval support, there isn't a strong showing of "squads" in these units. I'm not sure if "squads" is the correct term, even though it is in the manual that way.

< Message edited by Charbroiled -- 6/10/2012 1:35:40 AM >

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Post #: 18

RE: Reloading 16" guns - 6/10/2012 1:55:18 AM

Icedawg

Posts: 1610
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From: Upstate New York
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Charbroiled

I'm still a bit confused about the word "squad" in regards to naval support.

The three units I have at Naha are:

101st USN BF - 200 naval support and 10 Rifle squads (only "squads" in the units).

23rd USN BF - (46) x 54 naval support, 10 rifle squads

2nd Eng Amph Bde - 200 Naval Support....no squads.

Looking through units with naval support, there isn't a strong showing of "squads" in these units. I'm not sure if "squads" is the correct term, even though it is in the manual that way.

Different people seem to call "naval support" different things. "Naval Support Squads", "Naval Support", "Naval Support Elements". So, your first and third units are identical in terms of rearming capabilities.

(in reply to Charbroiled)

Post #: 19

RE: Reloading 16" guns - 6/10/2012 1:59:05 AM

Charbroiled

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OK, I was experimenting and I found something out that is interesting.

First off, all 4 AEs were docked.

I tried to reload the USS Iowa in a TF by itself and it did not reload. I tried reload from "port" and "at sea".

I then took one of the AEs out of it's TF and disbanded it into port.

I then tried to reload the USS Iowa from port....and it reloaded 13 shells (hit op limit). Also, the cargo load capacity of the AE in port dropped below 5400.

I then put the USS Wisconsin into a TF by itself. Tried to reload....nothing (as expected). I then disbanded another AE into port and the USS Wisconsin reloaded 13 shells (again, ops limit).

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Post #: 20

RE: Reloading 16" guns - 6/10/2012 2:09:51 AM

Charbroiled

Posts: 1181
Joined: 10/15/2004
From: Oregon
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charbroiled

I'm still a bit confused about the word "squad" in regards to naval support.

The three units I have at Naha are:

101st USN BF - 200 naval support and 10 Rifle squads (only "squads" in the units).

23rd USN BF - (46) x 54 naval support, 10 rifle squads

2nd Eng Amph Bde - 200 Naval Support....no squads.

Looking through units with naval support, there isn't a strong showing of "squads" in these units. I'm not sure if "squads" is the correct term, even though it is in the manual that way.

Different people seem to call "naval support" different things. "Naval Support Squads", "Naval Support", "Naval Support Elements". So, your first and third units are identical in terms of rearming capabilities.

Then, if "Naval Support" is the same as "Naval support squads", per pg 284 "Each Naval Support Squad = 5 rearm points", I should have 2270 (naval support) + 700 (size six port) = 2970 which is not enough by itself to rearm 16" guns with a rearm cost of 5400. Am I reading that correct? If so, I think I have a grasp on it.

As for the AEs, the manual does say the AE needs to be "at anchor in port". I always thought that meant in a TF, but now I see where I have been misreading it.

edit: I reloaded the turn and disbanded all (4) AEs into port. Click "reload from port" on the TF with all 3 BBs in the TF and they all took 13 shells. 3 of the 4 AEs in port dropped their supply load from 6400 to a little over 5000.

< Message edited by Charbroiled -- 6/10/2012 2:15:16 AM >

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Post #: 21

RE: Reloading 16" guns - 6/10/2012 2:12:16 AM

Dan Nichols

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Yes, the AEs and AKEs must be disbanded at the port, not in a TF. As long as they have supply, they can reload. The size limitation is only on the capacity, not the amount of supply loaded. You do need some, but not a complete load. Having multiple AEs disbanded will allow you to rearm more ships as long as there is a ship they can reload based on capacity. For the USN, the 5400 sized AEs can rearm any ship they have. For Japan, the Lima AKE can rearm all but the Yamato class BBs.

And yes, you are reading it right. At a size 6 port you would need 940 Naval Support Squads to load your BBs.

< Message edited by Dan Nichols -- 6/10/2012 2:16:57 AM >

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Post #: 22

RE: Reloading 16" guns - 6/10/2012 2:16:37 AM

Charbroiled

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dan Nichols

Yes, the AEs and AKEs must be disbanded at the port, not in a TF. As long as they have supply, they can reload. The size limitation is only on the capacity, not the amount of supply loaded. You do need some, but not a complete load. Having multiple AEs disbanded will allow you to rearm more ships as long as there is a ship they can reload based on capacity. For the USN, the 5400 sized AEs can rearm any ship they have. For Japan, the Lima AKE can rearm all but the Yamato class BBs.

Thank you....that is exactly what I confirmed as well.

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Post #: 23

RE: Reloading 16" guns - 6/10/2012 4:23:12 AM

msieving1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Charbroiled

Just checked and all (4) AEs are 6400 capacity and are 100% full of supplies....and are not disbanded in port.

The last part is your problem. The AEs should be disbanded in port.

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Post #: 24

RE: Reloading 16" guns - 6/10/2012 4:33:45 AM

Itdepends

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Until you get to some time in 1944 from memory when AE's (not AKE's) can (for the allies) replenish other TF's while at sea (i.e. underway). AE's in a TF count as at sea even if that TF is in port. This also affects air targetting of ships- anything in a TF but in the port will be hit by planes set to naval strike while those disbanded in port need a port strike to hit.

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Post #: 25

RE: Reloading 16" guns - 6/10/2012 5:27:29 AM

Charbroiled

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Itdepends

Until you get to some time in 1944 from memory when AE's (not AKE's) can (for the allies) replenish other TF's while at sea (i.e. underway). AE's in a TF count as at sea even if that TF is in port. This also affects air targetting of ships- anything in a TF but in the port will be hit by planes set to naval strike while those disbanded in port need a port strike to hit.

Apparently, the "rearm at sea" doesn't apply at a port and the AE has to be disbanded.....we are in 9/45.

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Post #: 26

RE: Reloading 16" guns - 6/10/2012 5:59:40 AM

Sardaukar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Charbroiled

quote:

ORIGINAL: Itdepends

Until you get to some time in 1944 from memory when AE's (not AKE's) can (for the allies) replenish other TF's while at sea (i.e. underway). AE's in a TF count as at sea even if that TF is in port. This also affects air targetting of ships- anything in a TF but in the port will be hit by planes set to naval strike while those disbanded in port need a port strike to hit.

Apparently, the "rearm at sea" doesn't apply at a port and the AE has to be disbanded.....we are in 9/45.

IIRC, rearm at sea is only up to 5" shells.

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Post #: 27

RE: Reloading 16" guns - 6/10/2012 3:04:57 PM

UniformYankee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar
IIRC, rearm at sea is only up to 5" shells.

Shouldn't be .... here are 16" on the high line ...

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(in reply to Sardaukar)

Post #: 28

RE: Reloading 16" guns - 6/10/2012 5:54:41 PM

Gridley380

Posts: 464
Joined: 12/20/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: UniformYankee

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar
IIRC, rearm at sea is only up to 5" shells.

Shouldn't be .... here are 16" on the high line ...

I suspect this is just another one for the list of "Things that ought to be in the game for historical accuracy but aren't because they wouldn't take effect until 1944/1945 and only benefit the Allies."

(in reply to UniformYankee)

Post #: 29

RE: Reloading 16" guns - 6/10/2012 6:17:40 PM

Don Bowen

Posts: 8183
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline

Of course an AE can reload ANY ammo if it is within the valid time frame and the capacity of the AE is sufficient to handle the required ammo. Capacity check for rearm at sea is the same check made for port rearming.

(in reply to Gridley380)

Post #: 30