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Scorched Earth project - 6/15/2012 4:35:21 PM   
Panama


Posts: 1362
Joined: 10/30/2009
Status: offline 		Yes, yet another East Front campaign. I guess it's more for my own satisfaction than anything else.

So, the map so far. I can still do a couple more sections in the north before I run into the size limitations of 3.4. I could finish that tomorrow but then what?

I've made a couple of different terrain types. Jungle has become wooded marsh. Dunes will be incorporated into the marsh and wooded marsh where needed to make it impassible to vehicles but usable by mountain and light infantry.

Light infantry will use the mountain heavy weapons symbol to bring it closer to it's historical funtionality.


I suppose I need to give the new dune/wooded marsh terrain type a name. Maybe roadless marsh since there are trails but no roads. Regular infantry will still be able to get into the wooded marsh at the jungle rate. They will still be able to get into the roadless marsh but at the dune rate.

All of that means the Pripets are not a nice place and you will not, under any circumstances, want to invade Finland until winter. It also makes most campaigns in the north rather pointless but you still need to garrison that area.





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< Message edited by Panama -- 6/15/2012 4:47:51 PM >

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RE: Scorched Earth project - 6/15/2012 4:58:00 PM   
Panama


Posts: 1362
Joined: 10/30/2009
Status: offline 		I've made Soviet advances into German occupied territory produce rifle squads to mirror what happened historically. It gives the German player a reason to try and hold back the Soviets. I've also done the opposite and reduced Soviet rifles squads according to how much territory the Germans have gobbled up giving the Soviet player a reason to not cut and run.

Not only will the Soviet want to stay as far west as possible for rifle squads but also for political reasons. If the Soviet falls back without putting up a fight Stalin will be sacked and that will be a big boost to German victory while producing a very large negative impact on Soviet moral.

Before starting the campaign the German player wil have a choice of two options:

Option one, the historical campaign which means an all out assault attempting to defeat the Soviets in one year.
Option two, a multi year campaign, entering winter quarters at the end of October with limits on the first year objectives with some allowance for the situation but still definate limits to how far of an advance is allowed.

The Soviet player will not know which option the German has chosen. So a smart German player will appear have chosen option one but really be on option two or appear to be sticking to option two but in reality have chosen option one.

To add confusion and secrecy to the opterations of both sides theater recon will be zero for both sides.



< Message edited by Panama -- 6/15/2012 4:59:34 PM >

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RE: Scorched Earth project - 6/15/2012 5:12:25 PM   
Panama


Posts: 1362
Joined: 10/30/2009
Status: offline 		The focus of the Scorched Earth campaign for the German player will be to keep the Soviets as far east as possible. The longer it takes the Soviets to conquer the capitals of the Axis allies the more likely it is for the Western Allies to arrive in Berlin before the Soviets. (The Western Allies will NOT wait forever) This will result in a major shift in world history.

Of course the Soviet focus will be the complete defeat of Axis forces in the east as quicly as possible and complete occupation of the Axis Allies resulting in the Iron Curtain.

I've also been toying with an idea. Make the map continue into Western Europe but with a dividing line approximatly where the map ends now.

Why?

Starting June 1944 the German player would control the German forces in the East and the Allied forces in the West. The Soviet player would control the Soviet forces in the East and the German forces in the West.

The German player would use the Allied forces in the West to attempt to get to Berlin before the Soviet player exits a certain number of Soviet Armies from the East side. At the same time the Soviet player would use the German forces in the West to hold back the Allied forces for as long as possible to attempt to exit the Soviet armies in the East before the Allies reached Berlin.

Sounds crazy but it might be fun. And a lot of work.

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RE: Scorched Earth project - 6/16/2012 11:47:36 PM   
Panama


Posts: 1362
Joined: 10/30/2009
Status: offline 		I've decided to give the Soviet player some control over the production of some of the support units. PVO, engineer, anti-tank and AA. Still toying with the idea of full blown Soviet production. Not sure if it would just screw things up.

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RE: Scorched Earth project - 6/16/2012 11:49:25 PM   
Panama


Posts: 1362
Joined: 10/30/2009
Status: offline 		Forgot to mention the scale. Half week turns. 10km per hex.

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RE: Scorched Earth project - 6/17/2012 4:45:53 PM   
shunwick


Posts: 2426
Joined: 10/15/2006
Status: offline 		Panama,

It sounds interesting to me. Go with your instinct.

Best wishes,
Steve

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RE: Scorched Earth project - 6/17/2012 6:36:49 PM   
Telumar


Posts: 2236
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: niflheim
Status: offline 		I especially like the two options idea. Looking forward to this.

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RE: Scorched Earth project - 6/19/2012 3:26:10 AM   
Panama


Posts: 1362
Joined: 10/30/2009
Status: offline 		Trying to find out what artillery units had the Soviet heavy artillery is making me nuts. I know how many units there were and what they consisted of. I also know the unit identifications. I just can't find out what artillery went in which unit. If anyone has info on the two Heavy Gun Regiments (24 152mm BR-2 each), the eight 280mm Howitzer Battalions (6 BR-5 each), the seven OM battalions (6 210mm BR-17 or 305mm BR-18 or 305mm Model 1915 each) and the two Heavy Gun Batteries (2 BR-2 each), I would greatly appreciate it.

So, I have the unit numbers, I have the TOE for the different kinds of units. Now I need to match one to the other and can't find the information.

Otherwise I have to put them into the super-heavy units without regard to which unit they were really in. I don't really like doing that.

< Message edited by Panama -- 6/19/2012 3:29:35 AM >

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RE: Scorched Earth project - 6/19/2012 7:56:01 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		Are you using Glantz' books ? Its confusing, but he has a bunch of info in them. If you don't have them I can take a look to see if I can figure some out, but I don't want to waste time getting into it if you already have.

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RE: Scorched Earth project - 6/19/2012 1:42:42 PM   
Panama


Posts: 1362
Joined: 10/30/2009
Status: offline 		Have all of Glantz's books. No joy there. Charles Sharp has no info because his Soviet Order of Battle WW2 series stops at Brigade level. Craig Crofoot has some info on how many were in each Front or Military District but I don't entirely trust his work. I've checked many, many Russian language sites but they only have the unit numbers, no TOE for each unit.

I have Grigsby's WiTE. They took the easy way out and made all of the super-heavies 280mm throwing out all the other guns.

The TOE for these units stay the same the entire war, truely an aberation, because they never made any more than what they had at the beginning of the war. Too complex and too difficult to make.

Forgot, Zaloga is where I found the TOE for the different unit types but no unit numbers.

< Message edited by Panama -- 6/19/2012 1:51:30 PM >

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RE: Scorched Earth project - 6/19/2012 2:54:47 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		Ok. I went thru similar hassles figuring out the Breakthrough Artillery Divisions. I think we can figure this out, but the descriptions you gave differ slightly from what I am looking at.

Clossus Reborn, pg. 324, Table 8.1.
Descriptions starting on pg. 288.

Stumbling Colossus, pg. 180, Table 6.1.
Abbreviations, pg. xv in the front of the book.

Looking at that stuff I get these:

SPABn (RGK) Special power [OM] artillery battalion
West Front 32nd
SouthWest Front 34th, 245th, 315th, 316th
9th Sep. Army 317th
Moscow Front 40th, 226th, 228th, 23rd

Of course, no idea whether they had 203mm or 305mm howitzers, but 24 each. Um, no 305mm in TOAW ?

I'll stop at that if its no help, or continue on if you like.

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RE: Scorched Earth project - 6/19/2012 4:29:46 PM   
Panama


Posts: 1362
Joined: 10/30/2009
Status: offline 		Special Power, High Power and OM are all the same and that's what I'm looking for. But I have gotten as far as you have. Can you believe after over three years of off and on research I've never run across the type of guns each of these units have?

Zaloga calls the 280mm a howitzer but other people call it a mortar. Here's a picture of one from wiki. It's the one in front. Looks like a Howitzer. Says it makes a 10 meter deep crater.

Crofoot says there are 30 305mm howitzers in the Orel MD. And one Special Power regiment. If there were 30 then that would be all five battalions of them and it would be the 281st Special Powered Artillery Regiment of the RGK.

But then Crofoot goes on to say they are BR-18 M1914/15, 39 which are not the howitzers at all. These are guns and there should only be 6 of them.

Well, anyway, it looks like you and I have gotten to the same point. Thanks for trying.




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< Message edited by Panama -- 6/19/2012 4:34:22 PM >

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RE: Scorched Earth project - 6/20/2012 2:58:14 PM   
Panama


Posts: 1362
Joined: 10/30/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Ok. I went thru similar hassles figuring out the Breakthrough Artillery Divisions. I think we can figure this out, but the descriptions you gave differ slightly from what I am looking at.

Clossus Reborn, pg. 324, Table 8.1.
Descriptions starting on pg. 288.

Stumbling Colossus, pg. 180, Table 6.1.
Abbreviations, pg. xv in the front of the book.

Looking at that stuff I get these:

SPABn (RGK) Special power [OM] artillery battalion
West Front 32nd
SouthWest Front 34th, 245th, 315th, 316th
9th Sep. Army 317th
Moscow Front 40th, 226th, 228th, 23rd

Of course, no idea whether they had 203mm or 305mm howitzers, but 24 each. Um, no 305mm in TOAW ?

I'll stop at that if its no help, or continue on if you like.


Well, your reference to Colossus Reborn got me to combing that for the umpteenth time which led me to combing Zaloga's Red Army Handbook again which led me to going through Craig Crofoot's The Order of Battle of the Soviet Armed Forces "The Sleeping Bear" again and then Charles Sharp's volumes again and after much writing and chart making and a headache I think I finally have it mostly nailed down.

So thanks for the help.

< Message edited by Panama -- 6/20/2012 3:00:04 PM >

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RE: Scorched Earth project - 6/20/2012 4:38:41 PM   
Panama


Posts: 1362
Joined: 10/30/2009
Status: offline 		Railroads, the life blood of the RKKA. The first section of the Soviet rail net was from the new border in Poland to the Leningrad/Smolensk/Kiev areas and made up almost half of the rail net (8 double 9 single main lines). The second section went east from there to Moscow/Kharkov/Rostov and was about a third of the rail net (5 double 11 single main lines). The third and last section was east and south of there and comprised the rest of the rail net (5 double and 9 single main lines). A single track line with 24 trains per day can supply 100 to 150 divisions. The same track would take many times more trains and much more time to move a single division.

No matter how much rolling stock you have you will not be able to move as much men and material with almost half of your rail net in enemy hands. If you still had the same amount of rolling stock on less rail you may even end up moving things slower because of the simple fact that only one train can move through the same space at one time. Single rail lines even more so, it's not a highway, no one passes unless a siding is built.

If the Axis player captures certain Soviet cities it will have an impact on the Soviet's ability to move troops by rail.

< Message edited by Panama -- 6/20/2012 4:41:27 PM >

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RE: Scorched Earth project - 6/27/2012 3:51:50 AM   
USXpat

 

Posts: 388
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Status: offline 		Not sure if this is of any help.

http://lib.rus.ec/b/292237/read - "Artillery in World War II" by Alexander B. Shirokorad

Do a search for 281 - should only be 2 references, both to the 281st Special Power Howitzer Artillery Regiment and specifically cites its use of the 30x 305mm, originally the property of the navy, with 4 more in storage or scrap.

http://3mer.livejournal.com/200868.html - appears to cite the same source.

For what it is worth, I haven't been able to find other units with the 305, at least not in this quantity, so I'd say its a pretty safe bet that they actually weren't 280's. I'd think there'd be more sources, but my Russian is limited.

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RE: Scorched Earth project - 6/27/2012 5:04:32 AM   
Panama


Posts: 1362
Joined: 10/30/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: USXpat

Not sure if this is of any help.

http://lib.rus.ec/b/292237/read - "Artillery in World War II" by Alexander B. Shirokorad

Do a search for 281 - should only be 2 references, both to the 281st Special Power Howitzer Artillery Regiment and specifically cites its use of the 30x 305mm, originally the property of the navy, with 4 more in storage or scrap.

http://3mer.livejournal.com/200868.html - appears to cite the same source.

For what it is worth, I haven't been able to find other units with the 305, at least not in this quantity, so I'd say its a pretty safe bet that they actually weren't 280's. I'd think there'd be more sources, but my Russian is limited.


I think I have it sorted out fairly well. According to Sharp the headquarters of the 281st High Power or Special Power Howitzer Regiment was disbanding at the time of the Axis invasion. That left the five battalions each with six 305mm howitzers as separate battalions. This squares with Crowfoot who places 30 305mm Howitzer BR-18 M1914/15/39 in the Orel MD at the time of the invasion. These were all category 1 and 2. Either needing no maintanence or routine maintanence which is what is verified in your second link.

Your second reference appears to place all 30 howitzers in Belorussia. I think I'll stick with Orel. This monster broke down into three pieces so I don't think they were very mobile and if left in the Western Special MD they will probably be history.

Thanks for the links. A person can never have enough resources.

< Message edited by Panama -- 6/27/2012 5:05:51 AM >

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