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RE: Week 50 - 5/17/2012 7:06:18 PM   
glvaca

 

Posts: 1312
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Status: offline 		I see what you mean concerning Rifle Corps, just started turn 51. Certainly a downside. I'm wondering if their reported thoughness in the defense makes them worthwhile nonetheless?
How do, let's say, 2 divisions compare versus a rifle Corps with both having roughly the same defensive CV?

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Post #: 151
RE: Week 50 - 5/17/2012 7:57:57 PM   
76mm


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Status: offline 		Personally, I never found weak rifle corps to be particularly good on defense; I'd rather have two RifDivs.

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Post #: 152
RE: Week 50 - 5/17/2012 8:05:08 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca

I see what you mean concerning Rifle Corps, just started turn 51. Certainly a downside. I'm wondering if their reported thoughness in the defense makes them worthwhile nonetheless?
How do, let's say, 2 divisions compare versus a rifle Corps with both having roughly the same defensive CV?



Sorry to disagree with 76mm but I think they were/are useful on my game (summer 1942) I am pretty certain Moscow is still in my hands because of them. They are harder to dislodge methinks. I had only created 6 Guards Corps though (= 18 guards rifle divisions). Then when I was hard pressed I kept creating them to face the menace (up to 16).

Said this, they are clearly an offensive tool (1943-44-45). Still, they possibly saved my ar** so I am forced to vouch for them. Well, only in Moscow area

P.S.: for a greater effect stack -as I did- such a corps + 2 rifle divisions... then you will see if your e-enemy dares to attack them

< Message edited by TulliusDetritus -- 5/17/2012 8:09:08 PM >

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Post #: 153
RE: Week 50 - 5/17/2012 8:30:27 PM   
76mm


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Status: offline 		Actually, TD is right in that if you are actually trying to defend a place (Moscow) instead of just slowing the Germans down, a rifle corps would be better, especially if you stack them.

In the open field though, where you are just trying to prevent a German breakthrough, I'd rather have two rifle divs in separate hexes than one rifle corps. Where possible I would try to have the first line or even two composed of rifle divs with some rifle corps a couple hexes back in reserve. The rifle corps can then move forward to mass to attack during your turn should the opportunity present itself. I would definitely build some rifle corps, just don't overdo it.

In my view the best use of rifle corps in 1942 is to keep them in reserve armies near the front so they can be used to manhandle any panzer divs that do manage a breakthrough.

< Message edited by 76mm -- 5/17/2012 8:33:08 PM >

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Post #: 154
RE: Week 50 - 5/17/2012 8:54:09 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

In the open field though, where you are just trying to prevent a German breakthrough, I'd rather have two rifle divs in separate hexes than one rifle corps. Where possible I would try to have the first line or even two composed of rifle divs with some rifle corps a couple hexes back in reserve. The rifle corps can then move forward to mass to attack during your turn should the opportunity present itself. I would definitely build some rifle corps, just don't overdo it.

In my view the best use of rifle corps in 1942 is to keep them in reserve armies near the front so they can be used to manhandle any panzer divs that do manage a breakthrough.


Yes, if you keep them in the open you are playing with fire, I guess, unless they are well barricaded behind hordes of rifle divisions.

Note that I did not send a single rifle corps to the south (aka the open).

In my scenario it worked because to take Moscow he was forced to do a frontal assault. Then he tried to advance via the flanks. Which is why I ended up creating up to 16 corps, to protect the flanks that is. A static, defensive (but with lots of potential counter-attacks) and yet effective role.

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Post #: 155
RE: Week 50 - 5/17/2012 9:49:40 PM   
glvaca

 

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Status: offline 		Good advice. I'm tempted to keep them back, in the open too, to counter attack together with the Cav and Tank Corps. I know it's risky but I don't see any other way of keeping him contained.
I guess when stacking limits start to play, Corps are the way to go, if not, you best stick to divs. Thanks!

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Post #: 156
Week 52 - 5/21/2012 12:58:08 AM   
M60A3TTS


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Status: offline 		Week 52- 11 JUN 42

The Summer German offensive features at least 14 panzer divisions attempting to pocket Soviet troop formations northwest of Moscow. Fortunately the Kalinin-Moscow rail line is intact that allows our troops to be withdrawn safely from the area.
The fortifications in the forward areas have been overrun, and there is not a set of significant forts now in this area.

In the center, the Kalinin, Western and Bryansk Fronts launch selected attacks to keep the Hitlerites off balance.

In the south, the Voronezh, Southwestern, Southern and Caucasus Fronts combine to exert pressure on German and Minor Axis troop formations. There are some German panzer divisions but not enough to cause great concern. With the initiative in our hands here, orders have been issued to drive the Fascists back over the west side of the Dnepr River from Dnepropetrovsk to Kiev. At this time Rokossovsky's 16th, Malinovsky's 9th, and Boldin's 19th Army also have a 40 mile long bridgehead over the west bank of the Dnepr at Dnepropetrovsk.

The Red Army Air Forces are undergoing a significant reorganization to provide uniform aircraft types at specific bases.

< Message edited by M60A3TTS -- 5/21/2012 1:08:32 AM >

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Post #: 157
Turn 52 situation - 5/21/2012 1:04:49 AM   
M60A3TTS


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Status: offline 		Northern Fronts


Central Fronts


Southern Fronts

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Post #: 158
RE: Turn 52 situation - 5/21/2012 8:37:47 AM   
glvaca

 

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Status: offline 		One small thing, I see you have all your Airborn Brigades still. I found that they can be combined into excellent GD rifle divs. Seems like a waste to keep them as brigs.
I've kept a few just to have some airdrop capability but I don't think I'll use them really.
He just secured one flank for a drive on Moscow. To really have a chance he's going to have to do the same around Smolensk/Vyazma...

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Post #: 159
RE: Turn 52 situation - 5/25/2012 12:01:10 AM   
M60A3TTS


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quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca

One small thing, I see you have all your Airborn Brigades still. I found that they can be combined into excellent GD rifle divs. Seems like a waste to keep them as brigs.
I've kept a few just to have some airdrop capability but I don't think I'll use them really.
He just secured one flank for a drive on Moscow. To really have a chance he's going to have to do the same around Smolensk/Vyazma...


The airborne brigades are actually good diggers for their size. Some folks prefer to wait for them to become guards airborne divisions, but since they can't form subsequently into something larger, I don't see them as a whole lot better than as guards divisions. I actually have created a couple guards rifle divisions with them, and aren't that close to the guards cap.

Regarding a drive on Moscow, there may be other things he has in mind in the coming weeks.

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Post #: 160
Turn 53 situation - 5/26/2012 5:36:22 AM   
M60A3TTS


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Status: offline 		Week 53 - 18 JUNE 42

The German northern offensive continues. Their troops have closed to within 50 miles of Moscow and Yaroslavl. The drive is not without cost, with 94,000 fewer ready troops in the German camp over a two week period. Another 800 tanks are also out of service through combat or operational losses in the same two week period.

In the south, attacks against the Rumanians and Hungarians along the lower Dnepr continue. At Dnepropetrovsk, the bridgehead on the western bank is reinforced with 1st and 2nd Guards Rifle Corps.





< Message edited by M60A3TTS -- 5/26/2012 5:37:01 AM >

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Post #: 161
Turn 54 situation - 5/29/2012 3:36:12 AM   
M60A3TTS


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Status: offline 		WEEK 54 - 25 JUNE 42

German mobile divisions cross over the Volga east of the Rybinsk Reservoir. The SS Totenkopf Division captures Vologda while other units threaten Yaroslavl. The German forces threatening Moscow close to within 30 miles of the city.

In the area of the Upper Dnepr, three small-scale Soviet attacks attempt to keep German units in the area off balance. In the Lower Dnepr, plans are underway to consolidate positions on the east of the Dnepr, and then launch several cross-river assaults in order to establish a presence in the west before strong Axis defenses can be established. Four cavalry corps of Vasily Volsky's 65th Army are in the Dnepropetrovsk bridghead. Plans call for the Southern Front to assume responsibility for this position. Voronezh and Southwestern Fronts will establish the bridgeheads north of Dnepropetrovsk towards Kiev.

The Long Range Air Command has 8 bomber divisions committed to the support of the Lower Dnepr Offensive.

Next week, the first three tank armies will form. Three guards rifle corps have been established to date.

German ready ground forces fell this week by over 95,000 to 3.9 million. Soviet ready ground forces fell by 39,000 to 8.1 million. So although the Germans are gaining ground in the north, it is coming at a cost.

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Post #: 162
Turn 54 situation - 5/29/2012 3:41:30 AM   
M60A3TTS


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Status: offline 		Northern Situation Map


Center Situation Map


Southern Situation Map

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Post #: 163
Turn 55 situation - 5/31/2012 5:17:23 AM   
M60A3TTS


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Status: offline 		WEEK 55 - 2 JULY 1942

German forces continue their advance in the north, primarily against Kliment Voroshilov's Northwest Front. The biggest gains are along the Volga as 3 divisions of the Northwest Front are isolated at Yaroslavl. 18th Motorized and 9th Panzer close to within 20 miles of Ivanovo. Counter moves manage to isolate three German divisions.

Farther south, the infantry attacks gain 10 miles and are within 20 miles of Moscow.

Mud strikes the Soviet Central Zone which brings the Soviet Dnepr Offensive to a temporary halt.

Three tank armies are formed in the vicinity of Moscow, Kharkov and Gorky.

German ready ground forces fell another 41,000 from the previous week, compared to a drop of 7,000 Soviet ready forces.

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Post #: 164
RE: Turn 55 situation - 5/31/2012 5:19:18 AM   
M60A3TTS


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Post #: 165
RE: Turn 55 situation - 5/31/2012 7:26:07 AM   
76mm


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Status: offline 		Very strange front line in this one...

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Post #: 166
Turn 56 situation - 6/10/2012 3:13:55 AM   
M60A3TTS


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Status: offline 		WEEK 56 - 9 JULY 1942

The German offensive in the north continues at a rapid pace. Lead German panzer units are within 20 miles of the Oka and now threaten Gorky. A rapid evacuation of 10 vehicle factories and the La-5 aircraft factories takes place. Meanwhile ready German forces drop by another 65,000 men and over 170 tanks. The German advance in the immediate area of Moscow has come to a halt.



Supply is becoming an issue for the Red Army with 32 rifle divisions reporting less than 5% of authorized general supplies. This will impede further offensive operations along the lower Dnepr as Southwestern and Voronezh Fronts are particularly affected.

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Post #: 167
Turn 57 situation - 6/10/2012 3:39:46 AM   
M60A3TTS


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Status: offline 		WEEK 57 - 16 JULY 1942

German forces push their way into Khimki just outside of Moscow. Pavel Rotmistrov's 1st Tank Army throws its full weight into a counterattack that dislodges the fascists.


Northeast of Moscow, the Germans have reached the gates of Gorky. 3rd Rifle Corps supported by 3rd Cavalry Corps and 12th Tank Corps move in to defend the city.


Various battles along the Dnepr continue, but gain little ground. The main objective here is to generate casualties. In this week the Germans lose another 52,000 men from their ready pool while Soviet numbers drop by less than 8,000.

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Post #: 168
Turn 58 situation - 6/10/2012 4:11:16 AM   
M60A3TTS


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Status: offline 		WEEK 58 - 23 JULY 1942

A terrible loss in the east as Gorky is taken. In an urban environment, the attacking forces lose an insignificant 27 AFVs. Panzer and motorized forces turn south to attampt to cut off the Volkhov and Northwest Fronts. Soviet forces will hold in hopes that if either group is cut off then reserves will be able to punch through.



German ready forces drop by another 58,000 men but a mere 65 tanks. Soviet forces drop by a little less than 40,000 men.

The Soviet supply situation is deteriorating rapidly. 96 of 475 rifle divisions now have less than 5% of authorized general supplies. This is making it more difficult for units to recover from battle fatigue. Approximately a fifth of our army is starving. Ammunition stocks while not stressed to the same extent are critically low particularly among units of the Voronezh and Southwestern Fronts.

< Message edited by M60A3TTS -- 6/10/2012 4:23:49 AM >

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Post #: 169
RE: Turn 58 situation - 6/14/2012 2:06:56 AM   
Farfarer61

 

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Status: offline 		The AAR is sufficently behind that I can see it according to Ed, so I will make a post to explain and enhance the AAR. Firstly, I am playing Axis lately leaving the First Winter Zone completely. I see no value in losing 1 million men regardless if the Red Army grows to 8 million. I have trying pursuing a relentless pull back Axis and so outstripped my supplies I assessed that some gifts shouldn't be accepted. Please leave behind this hugely contentious assertion and move on with the experiment in this game. We are playing beta versions after all :)

I needed a 1942 Army that was stronger, with better equipment and higher morale than in 1941. Imporantaly, my Minor Allies had to be strong.

M60 had a very strong defence in the south, actaully poised for offence,so I suspected i would ultimately need to go on the Operational level defensive in the south and conduct an economy of effort campaign. However, I wanted to see if a grand encirclement from Smolensk to Rostov was possible. Alternatively, a very signifcantly resourced attack north of the Azov would give the Red Army pause. To this end, Manteain and athe best commanders were concentrated in what would eventually become my shoestring operational defence in the south. Following significant gains, the Red Army stopped me cold, but sent huge reinforcements south. With this strategic investment, I assess STAVKA commited to a southern offensive, even after the Ost Heer was making worrisome gains in the north. STAVKA's assessment ( I assess :) was that a breakthrough would make a pullback and re-allocation of emergency axis forces essential. In a nutshell, that was the strategic context.

Trucks and Supply. I have a history of posts of trucks, but I was determined in 1942 to attack along sustainable ( i.e. along railways) paths. I learned this playing Soviet, and something I recommend Axis players pay attention to after the 1941 free for all.

In the screenshot, you will note two enabling precursor operations. First, I had to snap the rail line to the Finnish front - that's what the SS is for. The SS divisions that surrendered in 1941 are back in elite morale status even though they came back in the 30's (before a patch corected this) whereas Wehrmact re-created divs still suck.

Secondly, the Yaroslavl rail line runs next to the major river, so I had to hold a divisional picket line further out.

Finally my prefered supply route across the major river at K town had to be ready for the mid game.

OPLAN "Tebow" ( Broncos fan long before he got there but anyway) - all options, no plan :)

1) I was going to go for Chelyabinsk - no sh*t. Ed shut that down. I believe he saw this and went all in as I had 4 FBDs working to keep HQ Build Ups possible but couldn't do it. He knows I am an unashamed Panzer Raider.

2) Turn the flank and encircle Moscow plus. Never could, so I kept going east, with those nice major rivers on my flank and good supply. In 1942, the panzers are always in suppply, something not hoisted in by Sovs still thinknig of 1941.

3) Ended up at Gorky, full of industry. Confession time. It was looking like Stalingrad redux, so I decided to to bomb and leave. I had just finished a turn as Sov in another gave, and unthinkingly bombed troops rather than industry. After an "oh sh*t" moment I decided to do a ground attack to damage the industry. In order to maximize and avoid losses, I spent big APs to optimize C + C and had a reasonable die roll. After this high water mark - withdrawal time.

4) Try and pocket the three distinct and obvious candidates as Options ( i.e. consolation prizes). Supply was great, HQ Build Ups feasible and esentail to keep the Reds off balance, and imporatntly moving their mobile units so much as to reduce Reserve status usefulness. An "On Balanc" Red Army is very tough, a reactive one is not. Once again - Follow Supply Lines!




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 170
RE: Turn 58 situation - 6/14/2012 2:09:26 AM   
Farfarer61

 

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Status: offline 		And here is the Gorky Screenshot. I won't be in the AAR again until Ed lets me know he has posted Turn 67 or later. His screenies are superb compared to mine so enjoy his work ! Meant to add all these are before Axis moves.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Farfarer -- 6/14/2012 2:11:10 AM >

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Post #: 171
RE: Week 50 - 6/14/2012 9:08:32 PM   
HITMAN202


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Status: offline 		M60 .... How long does each turn take as you move this mega Soviet force ???? Also it seems that if Farfarer had limited his goals (not take so much space and isolate Moscow) that with a concentrated force he easily could have isolated 30-50 divisions/corp and pulled a few bear claws/fangs ,,???

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Post #: 172
RE: Week 50 - 6/15/2012 4:52:30 AM   
M60A3TTS


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

M60 .... How long does each turn take as you move this mega Soviet force ???? Also it seems that if Farfarer had limited his goals (not take so much space and isolate Moscow) that with a concentrated force he easily could have isolated 30-50 divisions/corp and pulled a few bear claws/fangs ,,???


It depends on the situation. If I'm in a tough spot it takes about 3 hours but I may wait a while after seeing the turn to figure out what to do. Other times in mud, I've done turns in minutes.

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Post #: 173
RE: Week 50 - 6/17/2012 5:45:25 PM   
Seminole


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quote:

The thing about early rifle corps is that when you first form them, their headcount will be way above their TO&E. Then in subsequent turns, the manpower will bleed off, turning a 12 CV into a 6-7. Since I have a goodly # of 4 CV units, I will probably sit tight on rifle corps, unless they are needed in a critical situation.


I realize this is a month late, but wanted to comment anyway.
I don't see any reason to build regular rifle corps in '42
But I do put together every pair of Guards Rifle Div I can find with a rifle brigade and make as many Gds Rifle Corps as possible. These have bite.
When rifle corps AP cost drops then I'd spend AP on creating the regular corps.

I like to utilize Voronezh Front as my 'Gds Rifle Corps' Front so you can put together a nice hammer/anvil to counter Axis main efforts.
I also switch Gds Rifle Div to Stavka before creating the Gds Rifle Corps to save on AP cost of getting them under Voronezh Front.

< Message edited by Seminole -- 6/17/2012 5:48:33 PM >

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Post #: 174
Week 59 - 6/20/2012 5:12:35 AM   
M60A3TTS


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Status: offline 		WEEK 59 - 30 JULY 1942

There is a severe shortage of general supplies in many rifle divisions. This army looks more like the tsar's army of 1917 every day. Our men are exhausted from lack of food and their high fatigue levels have brought the Dnepr battles to a halt between Dnepropetrovsk and Kiev. (maybe heavy industry means something after all?) In the north, repeated hammerings and a massive encirclement by the Wehrmacht traps a greater portion of both the Voronezh and Northwest Fronts. Red Army counterattacks manage to temporarily open both pockets.

All of this is consuming Germans troops and tanks. But there is also the realization that their summer campaign has another 2 1/2 months left. That is a great deal of time to do significant damage to the Red Army.

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Post #: 175
Week 59 supply - 6/20/2012 5:13:18 AM   
M60A3TTS


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Status: offline 		Supply situation for many of our divisions is grave.


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Post #: 176
Week 59 Northern Situation - 6/20/2012 5:15:37 AM   
M60A3TTS


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Post #: 177
Week 59 Production Figures - 6/20/2012 5:22:29 AM   
M60A3TTS


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Status: offline 		As can be seen here, although arms factories are largely intact, the arms pool has dried up. Our truck production is almost half of what it started with in June 1941. This may affect the number of mobile troops fielded at a later date.


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Post #: 178
RE: Week 59 Production Figures - 6/20/2012 10:10:31 PM   
HITMAN202


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Status: offline 		My comment about not pocketing stuff ??? Seventy units !!! I profusely apologize. This is what the summer Axis O is all about. It's hard to measure "attrition" in regards to how many factors impact a unit's combat effectiveness, but M60 is pointing to a Soviet supply issue that was hard to forsee 10-15 turns ago, that may be a foreshadowing a major disintergration in Soviet resistence. This may sound dumb, but does the Soviets have too many units ??? That is the present supply would be adequate for a fewer number of units, each having higher number of men ???

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Post #: 179
RE: Week 59 Production Figures - 6/21/2012 12:31:08 PM   
Peltonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

My comment about not pocketing stuff ??? Seventy units !!! I profusely apologize. This is what the summer Axis O is all about. It's hard to measure "attrition" in regards to how many factors impact a unit's combat effectiveness, but M60 is pointing to a Soviet supply issue that was hard to forsee 10-15 turns ago, that may be a foreshadowing a major disintergration in Soviet resistence. This may sound dumb, but does the Soviets have too many units ??? That is the present supply would be adequate for a fewer number of units, each having higher number of men ???



I think this is an issue I have seen in a few games that get to 42. There are to many SHC units therefor they are weak over all.

The GHC needs to pocket a min of 100 units during 42 and capture allot of manpower centers. The loss of units and manpower centers greatly weakens the SHC during 43. Making any O during 43 just not possible for SHC. This snow balls into a huge German army by 44 with high moral and no chance for SHC to get even close to Berlin.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 6/21/2012 12:55:22 PM >

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