Matrix Games Forums

 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 6/27/2012 10:46:29 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

Posts: 1623
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
interesting

< Message edited by Commander Stormwolf -- 6/27/2012 10:49:15 PM >

_____________________________

"No Enemy Survives Contact with the Plan" - Commander Stormwolf

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 31
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 6/27/2012 11:38:45 PM   
Grunt


Posts: 111
Joined: 5/17/2004
From: Idaho, USA
Status: offline 		It seems to me that the South has a strong military tradition too. Canoerebel mentioned several prominent men. I served in the Marines and noticed that many of the best Marines were from the south. And why is it that the Drill Instructors all seem to come from the South? Nothing strikes fear in the heart like that gravelly southern drawl from the pits of hell.

(in reply to Commander Stormwolf)
Post #: 32
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 6/28/2012 6:21:14 AM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Amazing lack of elevation change at Chickamauga....and lots of trees.

Can you imagine being on the flank of a brigade advancing through the woods not really knowing if the enemy is going to pop up behind you. I doubt either side really had decent maps.

(in reply to Grunt)
Post #: 33
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 6/28/2012 6:27:48 AM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		I've only been to Gettysburg. What are the best preserved sites?

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 34
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 6/28/2012 1:40:09 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline 		I'm a huge fan of the Shiloh battlefield.

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 35
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 6/28/2012 2:11:05 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Gettysburg, Sharpsburg, Chckamauga, Shiloh, Bull Run and Appomattox Courthouse are peaceful and spectacular.

(in reply to USSAmerica)
Post #: 36
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 6/28/2012 3:28:08 PM   
Empire101


Posts: 1950
Joined: 5/20/2008
From: Coruscant
Status: offline 		This has been a fascinating thread to read for someone 'over the pond'.
I particularly enjoyed reading Canoerebels 'There are regional differences....' thread.

Thanks for sharing the photos.

_____________________________

Our lives may be more boring than those who lived in apocalyptic times,
but being bored is greatly preferable to being prematurely dead because of some ideological fantasy. - Michael Burleigh


(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 37
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 6/28/2012 6:25:30 PM   
Kwik E Mart


Posts: 2447
Joined: 7/22/2004
Status: offline 		slightly OT, sorry...those interested in the regional differences in the U.S. might consider Joel Garreau's 1981 book The Nine Nations of North America...i know it was written a while back, but the theory he puts forward still resonate for me...he names the southeast quarter of the U.S., centered on Atlanta, GA (excluding the very southern section of Florida) as "Dixie"...IIRC, he attributes the South's propensity to be quick to fight (e.g., American Revolution, Mexican American War, War of 1812, etc) to the preponderance of Irish and Scottish immigrants to the region (mostly along the Appalachians)...we Americans sometimes refer to them as "Scotch-Irish"...i know my grandmother (born and raised in West Tennessee) often referred to her heritage as "Scotch-Irish"...

_____________________________

Kirk Lazarus: I know who I am. I'm the dude playin' the dude, disguised as another dude!
Ron Swanson: Clear alcohols are for rich women on diets.

(in reply to Empire101)
Post #: 38
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 6/28/2012 6:41:18 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		alot of that is based on the industry. The southern area of the country was more about agriculture and looked "inward" continentally whereas the NorthEast was more trade based and manufacturing. Hence during the War of 1812, there was a near succession of NE because the naval blockade was hurting business bad. So the NE area of the young country was Sea-focused not continental focused.



_____________________________


(in reply to Kwik E Mart)
Post #: 39
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 6/28/2012 6:50:11 PM   
Kwik E Mart


Posts: 2447
Joined: 7/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

alot of that is based on the industry. The southern area of the country was more about agriculture and looked "inward" continentally whereas the NorthEast was more trade based and manufacturing. Hence during the War of 1812, there was a near succession of NE because the naval blockade was hurting business bad. So the NE area of the young country was Sea-focused not continental focused.




...industry, resources, climate...all factors in shaping regional characteristics...

_____________________________

Kirk Lazarus: I know who I am. I'm the dude playin' the dude, disguised as another dude!
Ron Swanson: Clear alcohols are for rich women on diets.

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 40
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 6/28/2012 8:49:32 PM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline
quote:

to the preponderance of Irish and Scottish immigrants


Or to their distilled beverages.

After all, Tennessee and Kentucky are famous for their libations.

Maine... well... we have lobster.

No one will ever want distilled lobster mash.

_____________________________

Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

(in reply to Kwik E Mart)
Post #: 41
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 6/28/2012 9:44:48 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
alot of that is based on the industry. The southern area of the country was more about agriculture and looked "inward" continentally whereas the NorthEast was more trade based and manufacturing. Hence during the War of 1812, there was a near succession of NE because the naval blockade was hurting business bad. So the NE area of the young country was Sea-focused not continental focused.

...industry, resources, climate...all factors in shaping regional characteristics...

More than you know, Mr Nik.

Yeah, I have Grady/McWhiney, and read all about the Celt assault. Ehhh, ok, I guess. Nothing that any trained Confederate officer was thinking of when it was time to do the deed.

I mean, shoot, there ws a gazillion Celts from Ireland sailing into NY every single day, and they all got conscripted, and the Union Army should have had a surfiet of angry Celts just looking to whack some Southrons so they could go about their business.

Dude, it was simply big vs small. Metal vs flesh. I understand completely there was spots in Europe where little places could survive by being growly. But not in America. This was an historical conquest of a region where there were absolutely no other interests involved. The biggest Dick, wins. And they didn't care how long or how many deaths it took.

If you really know anything about the Civil War, you know that Grady/McWhiney were only analyzing certain tactical factors; NOTHING to do with reasons or rationale.

Not hassling you Nik, just preempting some asshole from Doggieville who wants to pretend he knows something.

Ciao. John

< Message edited by JWE -- 6/28/2012 9:49:45 PM >

_____________________________

Home of DaBabes

(in reply to Kwik E Mart)
Post #: 42
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 6/28/2012 9:47:43 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Gettysburg, Sharpsburg, Chckamauga, Shiloh, Bull Run and Appomattox Courthouse are peaceful and spectacular.


Gettysburg... been there sevral times, done that
Sharpsburg (Antietam)...Been there couple of times, done that.
Chickamauga ... need to include Lookout Mountain and Chattanooga... been there several times, done that.
Shiloh... haven't made it to south central west TN ...yet.
Bull Run ( Manassas 1 & 2) ... been there several times, done that.
Appomattox Courthouse...not yet.

Need to throw in ...

Chancellorsville ( and later the Wilderness) ... been there, done that.
Fredericksburg... been there, done that.
Murfreesboro (Stones River) ... been there, done that

Some lesser known sites ...
Knoxville, TN --- city now built up over much of the siege sites...although they do have a park on the south side of the river.
New Market, VA --- located just off of I-81
Droop Mountain, WV
Kennesaw Mountain, GA
Cedar Creek, VA



< Message edited by treespider -- 6/28/2012 9:55:29 PM >

_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 43
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 6/28/2012 10:04:57 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


If you really know anything about the Civil War, you know that Grady/McWhiney were only analyzing certain tactical factors; NOTHING to do with reasons or rationale.

Ciao. John


No problem John. I used to know something about the Civil War as I was a bit of a buff when i was a teen, but i havn't seriously studied it since those days. I know the highlights but not alot else. Someone wants to lord it over me........more power. I have a friend who's CW nut and dresses in confed outfits. He was telling me the other day how if only for one charge at Gettysburg D.C. would have fallen and the South would have won the war. I just smiled and nodded and didn't try poking any holes. It would only have upset him.

I was just responding to the regional thing as i've been studying the 1812 war of recent and there was distinctive difference in outlook and focus between the Northern, esp NE states (Maine - New York esp) and the southern states of the original 13 Colonies based on Seaward vs. Continental viewpoints, driven by economics.

War is NOT always good for business as the 1812 conflict showed.

Someday i might read up a little on the CW.......so many subjects so little time on this Earth.


_____________________________


(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 44
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 6/28/2012 10:21:50 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
Gettysburg, Sharpsburg, Chckamauga, Shiloh, Bull Run and Appomattox Courthouse are peaceful and spectacular.

Well, I am a Southron, and I do believe Bobby Lee sitteth foremost in the pantheon at the right hand of Joshus, Sword of the Lord, and Scourge of the Unrighteous. But as an historian, I gotta say, we ate doo doo.

We won Battles up the wazoo. There was 7-Days, 2nd Mannassas, Fredricksburg, Chancelorsville, Murfeesboro (c.f.), Chicamauga, you frikkin name it it, but it didn't mean nothing. There was nothing we could do but push the Union troops back to someplace they could regroup, recruit and reorganize and come back for more. Lee and Jackson tried, and tried, and tried, but just couldn't kill the beast. Once we was there, it was just a matter of time. Lee knew this.

So the interesting parts of this conflict (if any part of it could ever be called interesting) is those little things called "engagements" in the ORs. That's where you, as a military historian, will find those personal accounts as to how a single Division, with 2766 total troops fought off 2 Union Corps with 11,982 troops, so very informative.

Read. Learn. Read more. Learn more. Your heritage is captured in your history. The more you know of it, the more complete a person you will be. Ciao. John

_____________________________

Home of DaBabes

(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 45
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 6/28/2012 11:46:43 PM   
LST Express


Posts: 571
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Cap Mandrake as a Sawbones you might enjoy the Museum of Civil War Medicine at Frederick Md if you haven't already.  Besides some of the ones already mentioned I enjoyed Fort Sumter, Harpers Ferry and Vicksburg. Lookout Mountain as already mentioned gives a nice view of the terrain in the Chattanooga area.

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 46
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 6/29/2012 12:57:31 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
Gettysburg, Sharpsburg, Chckamauga, Shiloh, Bull Run and Appomattox Courthouse are peaceful and spectacular.

Well, I am a Southron, and I do believe Bobby Lee sitteth foremost in the pantheon at the right hand of Joshus, Sword of the Lord, and Scourge of the Unrighteous. But as an historian, I gotta say, we ate doo doo.

We won Battles up the wazoo. There was 7-Days, 2nd Mannassas, Fredricksburg, Chancelorsville, Murfeesboro (c.f.), Chicamauga, you frikkin name it it, but it didn't mean nothing. There was nothing we could do but push the Union troops back to someplace they could regroup, recruit and reorganize and come back for more. Lee and Jackson tried, and tried, and tried, but just couldn't kill the beast. Once we was there, it was just a matter of time. Lee knew this.

So the interesting parts of this conflict (if any part of it could ever be called interesting) is those little things called "engagements" in the ORs. That's where you, as a military historian, will find those personal accounts as to how a single Division, with 2766 total troops fought off 2 Union Corps with 11,982 troops, so very informative.

Read. Learn. Read more. Learn more. Your heritage is captured in your history. The more you know of it, the more complete a person you will be. Ciao. John


This describes a situation where one side never came up with a potentially winning strategy and the other side, once Grant was appointed to command over in the east, did come up with a war winning strategy.

Ultimately to win a war one has to destroy the enemy's will to resist. Winning battles might work against weak willed opponents but against leaders of the calibre of Lincoln who retained the confidence of his electorate, they just don't lose heart over tactical defeats.

The only potential winning strategy I can see for the south was to get the Europeans involved. Not an easy task in itself, quite possibly an impossible one. Still potentially the intervention north of the Rio Grande of the large and experienced French army (assuming Maximilian could do without them) would have helped stretch Union resources but the real aid would have been a British naval blockade to disrupt northern trade and as a byproduct undermine popular support for the war.

Alfred

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 47
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 6/29/2012 6:02:50 PM   
Lecivius


Posts: 4845
Joined: 8/5/2007
From: Denver
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Grunt

It seems to me that the South has a strong military tradition too. Canoerebel mentioned several prominent men. I served in the Marines and noticed that many of the best Marines were from the south. And why is it that the Drill Instructors all seem to come from the South? Nothing strikes fear in the heart like that gravelly southern drawl from the pits of hell.


I dunno. I can remember my CPO just LOOK at someone and cause heart failure. And he was from the midwest

(in reply to Grunt)
Post #: 48
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 6/29/2012 7:49:57 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		On September 20, 1863, York's Georgia Battery supported Longstreet's breakout through the center of the Union lines at the Battle of Chickamauga. The battery of four guns advanced with the gray infantry as it pursued shattered elements of the federal army and then fought off attacks against its own flank. One gun of the battery was detailed to occupy a small knoll to interdict enemy artillery retiring towadrs McFarland Gap and Chattanooga.

The monument to York's Georgia Battery has always fascinated me for reasons I can't really put my finger on. After escorting visitors to the site earlier this week, I wrote this brief verse:

York's Georgia Battery 1 Gun


Smoke and thunder
wreath the bronze
hilltop sentinel
York's single gun

Crouched to fire
against the foe
whose broken ranks
seek the sun




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 6/29/2012 7:50:10 PM >

(in reply to Lecivius)
Post #: 49
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 6/30/2012 1:07:38 AM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		I like the poem. Thought it was going to be a Haiku for a sec.

I think that is a 12 lb Nap and it looks to be Union manufacture, though the CSA would have had many captured Uinon guns by '63.


In any event it would not seem the best piece for long range interdiction.



The single gun is poignant.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 50
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 6/30/2012 1:46:29 AM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
This describes a situation where one side never came up with a potentially winning strategy and the other side, once Grant was appointed to command over in the east, did come up with a war winning strategy.

....

Alfred

I am sure you are right, but something about CR's Civil War posts move me profoundly. I guess I'm just a sucker for 'lost batallions', 'forlorn hopes', and 'lost causes'. You know, those little things that ARE the curriculum at USMAWP.

Keep bringing it Canoerebel. I love it.

John

_____________________________

Home of DaBabes

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 51
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 6/30/2012 2:55:33 AM   
topeverest


Posts: 3376
Joined: 10/17/2007
From: Houston, TX - USA
Status: offline 		despite reading several, I never really found what I thought was a definitive Coddington style "Gettysburg Campaign" study of the battle of Chickamauga. What does everyone think is the best available work on the battle? I also live about 75 miles from the battlefield and have visited more than my share of times, given my deference to the American Civil War. I am impressed how well the field is preserved. It is a must visit, along with lookout mountain.



_____________________________

Andy M

(in reply to Titanwarrior89)
Post #: 52
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 6/30/2012 3:00:48 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		That's easy!  This Terrible Sound by Peter Cozzens is the second finest piece of non fiction that I have read.  Just a stunning piece of writing, especially for those who have visited Chickamauga battlefield. 

(in reply to topeverest)
Post #: 53
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 6/30/2012 3:11:06 AM   
topeverest


Posts: 3376
Joined: 10/17/2007
From: Houston, TX - USA
Status: offline 		I must ask...and what is the best?

_____________________________

Andy M

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 54
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 6/30/2012 3:39:40 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		We were Soldiers Once...and Young, by Hal Moore and Joe Galloway.

I am not a big Vietnam War buff, so this book really had to take me by the short hairs and yank in order for me to give such effusive praise. I simply don't think it would be possible to write a better work of non-fiction. To have the commanding officer of the force surrounded deep in enemy territory, to have him interview so many of his men, to have him dig through the records, to have him interview some of the enemy commanders, and to cap it off by interviewing family of some of his men who fell on that battlefield. Well, how could you top that?

(in reply to topeverest)
Post #: 55
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 6/30/2012 4:48:28 AM   
CRations


Posts: 75
Joined: 2/21/2012
Status: offline 		I never read the book but I enjoyed the movie. In the movie there are the cut scenes where the wife hand delivers the "We regret to inform you" telegrams from the western Union.

I include that movie in my top-10 list.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_Were_Soldiers


CR

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 56
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 6/30/2012 4:51:29 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		I hope you won't consider me contrarian or disagreeable in saying that I really don't like that movie.  The book is sublime; the movie...I give it very low marks.

(in reply to CRations)
Post #: 57
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 6/30/2012 5:10:40 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		I felt the same way about Killer Angels and visiting Gettysburg.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 58
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 6/30/2012 5:40:39 PM   
Wirraway_Ace


Posts: 1400
Joined: 10/8/2007
From: Austin / Brisbane
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


This describes a situation where one side never came up with a potentially winning strategy and the other side, once Grant was appointed to command over in the east, did come up with a war winning strategy.

Ultimately to win a war one has to destroy the enemy's will to resist. Winning battles might work against weak willed opponents but against leaders of the calibre of Lincoln who retained the confidence of his electorate, they just don't lose heart over tactical defeats.

The only potential winning strategy I can see for the south was to get the Europeans involved. Not an easy task in itself, quite possibly an impossible one. Still potentially the intervention north of the Rio Grande of the large and experienced French army (assuming Maximilian could do without them) would have helped stretch Union resources but the real aid would have been a British naval blockade to disrupt northern trade and as a byproduct undermine popular support for the war.

Alfred

Alfred,

I would suggest that the Southern leadership clearly understood that the key to eventual victory, if the Northerners could not be caused to lose the will to fight due chronic defeats on the battlefield, was intervention from Europe. The lesson of the Revolution. They tried to bring this about through diplomacy and the economics of the cotton trade, but understood (or came to) that no European power was going to openly support a nation-state that appeared to be fighting to defend "that peculiar institution". And all the actionis you cite that were significant enough to possibly tip the balance were open support. Like Japan of the 40's, they were not willing (or able) to change the nature of their society and its goals in order to change the strategic calculus.

Victory on the battlefield until Lincoln had to face election again in 1964 was not an unreasonable gambit, since there were no others....

Mike

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 59
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 6/30/2012 5:42:49 PM   
Wirraway_Ace


Posts: 1400
Joined: 10/8/2007
From: Austin / Brisbane
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

That's easy!  This Terrible Sound by Peter Cozzens is the second finest piece of non fiction that I have read.  Just a stunning piece of writing, especially for those who have visited Chickamauga battlefield. 


i happen to like Chickamauga by Tucker too.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 60
Page:   <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.984