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Allied CVs, early war - 7/2/2012 6:43:35 PM

KPAX

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Boy is it depressing early on.

My CVs get jumped by those god-aweful Bettys, get too close to the warp-speed KB and just get toasted.

What do I do with them?

I have tired to raid, but the Bettys range is so long. And the KB is using warp-speed technology or some wormhole.

Is it just best to let them sit with the CA, CL and DD and go through the first (or maybe two) rounds of upgrades which take place in early 1942. Along with training the pilots and upgrading the aircraft?

What are folks doing with them?

< Message edited by KPAX -- 7/5/2012 10:06:18 PM >

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RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/2/2012 6:57:44 PM

RogerJNeilson

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Well I do regard the CV vs CV battle as being pretty chancy, so I tend to do one of two things - either keep them as a threat - preferably the enemy not knowing where they are for as long as possible, or else use them when i know the enemy carriers have depleted their own airstrikes and they can be caught retiring - which means them not knowing where you are.

I'd never chance them against long range air - carriers sink, islands don't.

Sometimes I do let the enemy have glimpse of where my CVs are - but that's very premeditated.

Of course - for the benefit of my current opponents - just because that's how I say I use them doesn't mean its how I will always use them.

Why raid.... have a look at some of your destroyers and fast cruisers.....

Roger

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RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/2/2012 6:59:59 PM

shall9

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Concentrate your carriers, keep them well protected with high AA ships, and keep them far away from anywhere the KB might be until sometime in 1943. You could get lucky and draw the KB into an area where you have lots of land based bombers and your carriers, or they may do something stupid like trying to dock at Manila before Corregidor is taken.

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RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/2/2012 7:00:26 PM

Commander Stormwolf

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:

a)betty was the reason that usn could not attack deep into japanese territory after midway

b) betty was the reason that usn didn't use their old BB during the guadalcanal campaign

c) betty could have sunk lexington during the rabaul raid if the IJN was properly organized

in general, the betty (and the idea of long-range torpedo aviation in general) was perhaps the most formidable weapon the japanese had,
and if the japanese torpedo corps was not squandered during the attritional fighting in the solomons, would have been a powerful adjunct
during any decisive naval engagement (lets say instead of 100 betty and frances in the marianas, the IJN stockpiled 1000 emilies, it could have been
a turket shoot, the other way around)

so what to do with the usn carriers? you can risk them and raid, or you can keep them safe until you can challenge the kb

both strategies have rewards

the first one can slow down the japanese expansion

the second one will guarante strength in 1943

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RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/2/2012 7:03:51 PM

RogerJNeilson

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The third, to lose your carriers is to give the Evil Empire carte blanche all over the map.....

Save them till you have so many you don't mind losing a few...... (Late 1943)

Roger

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RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/2/2012 7:19:38 PM

Nikademus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KPAX

Boy is it depressing early on.

My CVs get jumped by those god-aweful Bettys, get too close to the warp-speed KB and just get toasted.

What do I do with them?

I have tired to raid, but the Bettys range is so long. And the KB is using warp-speed technology or some wormhole.

Is it just best to let them sit with the CA, CL and DD and go through the first (or maybe two) rounds of upgrades which take place in early 1942. Along with training the pilots and upgrading the aircraft?

What are folks doing with them?

You have to handle them with care, which is me calling the kettle black because i get too bored and eventually take what some players would consider unnecessary risks.

Few players make Yamamotto's mistake of breaking up his "winning team" so to speak so against that force your best advice is to avoid. The good news here is that if player one wants to get milage out of KB directly he or she will have to advertise it's location which makes your ability to use Allied CV's much easier. As you said though....you have to watch out for G4M/G3M torpedo equipped concentrations. Same with subs, which are worse in my experience. One sub can ruin your day (and the balance of power)

Usually I keep the CV's back and await an opportunity, but often i'll conduct raids. Sometimes that gets me in trouble, other times i get away with it and sting like a bee while moving like a butterfly.

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RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/2/2012 7:23:04 PM

Mundy

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Me too...

I made the mistake of insisting they go straight back to Pearl in robot-like fashion and paid the price in one of my PBEMs.

It probably helps to let them get some AA upgrades in before getting too daring with them. Lots of the USN ships are pretty weak in this regard at the start.

Ed-

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RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/2/2012 7:40:48 PM

Nikademus

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The AA upgrades can cause agony. I had in one game 5 x US CV's (i don't mix RN and US CV's on average....not kosher IMHO) which was a pretty good concentration...but then one upgraded AA and because of the current load at Pearl Harbor it was to take about 25 days to get out of the dockyard. There was some activity going on somewhere else that i wanted to counter......so the decision was.....sit and wait or send 4 CV's? the agony.......oh and to boot the others were eligble for AA within 40 days too.....so then the question was also, sit tight and let the enemy advance and then counter future moves with stronger defenses????

I solved this thorny problem with a careful logical plan.

I flipped a coin.

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RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/2/2012 7:52:00 PM

tocaff

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Actually the old USN BBs weren't used around Guadalcanal because they consumed huge amounts of fuel and there wasn't enough available and doctrine dictated not using the BBs in confined waters. The later was ignored when the BBs Washington and South Dakota were sent in as other options were burned.

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RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/2/2012 7:53:56 PM

KenchiSulla

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If you know the position of KB and can get away with a strike, why not? Land based bombers are a theat so always keep the CVs together and have a strong CAP up..

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RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/2/2012 7:54:03 PM

geofflambert

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In my first PBEM in late March of '42 I sent my four CVs against all 6 of his CVs and mauled them pretty badly. The location was halfway between Finschafen and PM, with mine on the south side of the peninsula, and his on the north side. Only Kaga escaped with less than 4 bomb hits (1) and only one of my CVs was hit (by both bombs and torps) but still had less than 75% flotation damage and no fires, and I think it would have made it to Sydney, for instance, and all it's air arm successfully landed at PM. He complained that his KB was extremely low on fuel (decidedly careless, I think), and it may have been low on sorties as well, being quite active up to that point without visiting a port. There also were severe thunderstorms over my TF's (each carrier in its own) and only perhaps half his attack found a target, and that was only 1 of the four TFs. His KB was in PC conditions and easily found by all of my strike. I don't remember what land based stuff he had available, but it did not figure in the battle. All and all, I'd say I was extremely lucky (not to mention foolhardy). We stopped the game at that point, of course. My 3 CVs would have hunted down many if not all of his CVs, I think (of course he may have had Bettys around and now had a lot of Kates and Vals on nearby land strips so perhaps pursuit would have been rather risky). A note on running low on fuel: if you don't have AOs available or aren't willing to bring them near the front, and can't be bothered to rendevous and refuel, have some large xAKs handy with their tanks full as an emergency pit stop. You might even keep them with the AOs so they are kept full til you commit them.

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RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/2/2012 7:55:02 PM

Mundy

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Yeah, I remember Neptune's Inferno pretty much saying that due to fuel, it was either the CVs or the BBs, but not both.

The choice is sorta obvious to us today, I guess.

Ed-

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RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/2/2012 8:13:23 PM

pharmy

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Betty's and Nell's lose their edge once you have better CAPs and after a couple of fighter traps, he will have lost his best pilots. Takes a long time to train a new and proper LBA - Navt/NavB/LowN along with search and ASW skills (the last two are essential for when your subs get better and you want to augment your recon). They are really easy planes to shoot down without fighter escorts. In 42 they are still a force to contend with, but the erosion of pilot skills will sooner or later render them toothless (they can't hit a destroyer with a torp 90% of the time) - although with the newest official patch it seems that no cap is leak proof. Also using Dababes AAA really thins their ranks and messes up their aims. Also they need an air HQ to have torps, keep checking signals intelligence, and always estimate ranges from size 4 AFs(both strike range and fighter escort range). Its no good keeping track of where they are as you can ferry from Kwajelein to Port Blair in two days.

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RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/2/2012 8:14:50 PM

spence

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quote:

b) betty was the reason that usn didn't use their old BB during the guadalcanal campaign

c) betty could have sunk lexington during the rabaul raid if the IJN was properly organized

in general, the betty (and the idea of long-range torpedo aviation in general) was perhaps the most formidable weapon the japanese had,
and if the japanese torpedo corps was not squandered during the attritional fighting in the solomons, would have been a powerful adjunct
during any decisive naval engagement (lets say instead of 100 betty and frances in the marianas, the IJN stockpiled 1000 emilies, it could have been
a turket shoot, the other way around)

The IJN spent nearly 4 years wishing that all this was true. In the real world the Bettys (and Nells) had one really good day against ships (Prince of Wales and Repulse). That same torpedo corps went after the Lexington in February and then Adm Crace's TF at Coral Sea without any effect. After that they spent the rest of their existence completely justifying their reputation (amongst their own crews) as RONSONs (a type of cigarette lighter). The occasional torpedo hit they scored hardly justifies the expenditure of aircrew that went along with it.

One ought to think rather hard about bringing one's CVs into range of these babies though since the game (at least) indulges the IJN's fantasies concerning their effectiveness. But if you can catch part of the KB or the "mini-KB" with multiple American CVs then you can put the hurts to the IJN for sure. Their hulls are all but irreplaceable. Yours come back as Essex Class (up to a point).

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RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/2/2012 8:30:21 PM

Commander Stormwolf

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Lexington's raid on Rabaul was greeted by a handful of unescorted betties

someone remind me if they were carrying torpedoes or 250kg

and most of the japanese betties were lost above port moresby and henderson field,
tasks that could have been handeled by the IJAAF if they built proper airfields in the area

i do agree that a better design than the betty was needed, something fast and heavily armed+armored

also, betties took up a lot of the precious airfield space on those small islands, so during invasions like the marshals,
relatively few could be brought into action.

how about all the airfields full of zeroes, and the atolls full of emilies (90% of an island base was the atoll water space)

a much tougher nut to crack

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RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/2/2012 8:33:55 PM

Grfin Zeppelin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf

i do agree that a better design than the betty was needed, something fast and heavily armed+armored

Oh Stormwolf........

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RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/2/2012 8:36:34 PM

ny59giants

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I'm not a big fan of hiding my American CVs till '43, but you can increase their chance of survival. Place a Marine fighter group (18 planes) on each of your CVs. That will bring the number up to 45 per CV. Even with the navy fighters re-sizing to 36 planes in July '42, I keep the extra fighters on till the Hellcat (I max out with 99 planes per CV, so I don't add all the extra planes the re-sizing allows you to do then). Just train up more navy fighter pilots. It helps to stay 14 hexes away from Ms Nell and Ms Betty. That is the extended range of the Zero. 225 fighters plus Wasp is a good number to have if you keep them all together.

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RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/2/2012 8:39:55 PM

KenchiSulla

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quote:

ORIGINAL: icepharmy

Betty's and Nell's lose their edge once you have better CAPs and after a couple of fighter traps, he will have lost his best pilots. Takes a long time to train a new and proper LBA - Navt/NavB/LowN along with search and ASW skills (the last two are essential for when your subs get better and you want to augment your recon).

Why on earth would you want to train Betty pilots in nav bombing, ASW and LowN skills? Get them up to 70 Torpedo skill with about 55/60 search and they are done! Combine with 50 xp, 70 airskill A6M3a pilots and you have a strike force of 90 planes ready to do damage 15 hexes out well into 1944!

< Message edited by Cannonfodder -- 7/2/2012 8:40:19 PM >

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RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/3/2012 3:24:12 AM

crsutton

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I pretty much have one rule set in stone as the Allies in 42. "Don't lose your carriers." Write this down and tape it to your monitor. You can risk and lose anything else but your carriers and still come out smelling like a rose.

So......I never use Allied carriers in any place where I know KB is. And, if I don't know for certain where KB is, I don't use my carriers at all. I have passed up a few choice opportunities but if I am not 100% certain KB is not there I will call off the operation. Simple as that.

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RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/3/2012 12:56:10 PM

zuluhour

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I pretty much have one rule set in stone as the Allies in 42. "Don't lose your carriers." Write this down and tape it to your monitor. You can risk and lose anything else but your carriers and still come out smelling like a rose.

So......I never use Allied carriers in any place where I know KB is. And, if I don't know for certain where KB is, I don't use my carriers at all. I have passed up a few choice opportunities but if I am not 100% certain KB is not there I will call off the operation. Simple as that.

quote:

I pretty much have one rule set in stone as the Allies in 42. "Don't lose your carriers." Write this down and tape it to your monitor. You can risk and lose anything else but your carriers and still come out smelling like a rose.

So......I never use Allied carriers in any place where I know KB is. And, if I don't know for certain where KB is, I don't use my carriers at all. I have passed up a few choice opportunities but if I am not 100% certain KB is not there I will call off the operation. Simple as that.

I only had Wasp left at sea for eight months for not adhering to such fine advice.

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RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/3/2012 1:11:01 PM

RogerJNeilson

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The first rule of the Allies in WITP is 'Don't lose your carriers'

The second rule of the Allies in WITP is the first rule.......

Ad infinitum.

Roger

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RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/3/2012 2:09:50 PM

The Gnome

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My carriers get used to cover my supply chains, but well out of betty range. I can usually punish any attempted raids by cvl's or surface groups. I can also discourage any overly aggressive invasion attempts that wander out beyond LBA support and are foolish enough not to bring along KB.

More or less I keep them out of port and doing something useful, but definitely out of harm's way.

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RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/3/2012 2:36:26 PM

JocMeister

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Hmm, Just coming out of my second cv battle I have some recent experience with this. But beware of the 7 hex strike...not much fun!

I�m convinced that the KB is far, far from invincible. Given the right circumstances the KB can be punished. Hiding your CVs on the WC until you have complete carrier supremacy won�t gain you anything. Use your carriers to check the KB or raid. Keep all six CVs togheter. Makes sure all pilots are fully trained and you have the best leaders assigned. If you go up against the KB make sure its on your terms!

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RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/3/2012 2:47:02 PM

Sardaukar

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KB is very dangerous, but can be brittle, just as in Midway. If you get lucky, you can punish IJN severely. As Allies, you can always come back with Essex-class CVs, IJN cannot.

But I rarely risk my CVs, unless repulsing invasion and being totally sure KB is not around.

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RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/3/2012 2:56:29 PM

Canoerebel

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I'm pretty sure I set the record for wackiest (worst?) use of Allied carriers in my game vs. Q-Ball a few years back.� He invaded India in March 1942 with the full KB present.� I kept the Allied carriers in Capetown for use only in the event I had to force convoys into Karachi.� It got very, very bad for awhile, and I came very, very close to committing the carriers...but I never did.� They sat in Capetown or Mombassa for about seven or eight months.� The upside was that none of them got sunk.

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RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/3/2012 3:11:58 PM

pharmy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

quote:

ORIGINAL: icepharmy

Betty's and Nell's lose their edge once you have better CAPs and after a couple of fighter traps, he will have lost his best pilots. Takes a long time to train a new and proper LBA - Navt/NavB/LowN along with search and ASW skills (the last two are essential for when your subs get better and you want to augment your recon).

Why on earth would you want to train Betty pilots in nav bombing, ASW and LowN skills? Get them up to 70 Torpedo skill with about 55/60 search and they are done! Combine with 50 xp, 70 airskill A6M3a pilots and you have a strike force of 90 planes ready to do damage 15 hexes out well into 1944!

ever since single Engine IJAAF units cost 200pps to upgrade to use a ASW assets :) But seriously the nav bombing and LowN -mainly I play RA - and supply is a very crucial issue, you won't always have torpedoes ready at the minimum of 7 or 8 HQs (the economy in stock or DBB lite is so easy compared to RA), also you can do extended range attacks with bombs if you take a chance. Japanese Navs is also terrible in detecting what units you are facing - a 50 navs skill US pilot will sometimes confuse a CV and CVL or CS - but with the IJN I am blind until skills go over 70. Using the Nells/Bettys as patrol aircraft is almost a must if you want to avoid blindspots, too few PT units availabble. ASW isnt that important, IJAAF land bombers have OK range for that. Thats why I put Navb/LowN in the same category as NavT (low Nav I'm not so sure is needed for either), ASW and Search is optional but its the best thing to supplement your meager Patrol assets

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Post #: 26

RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/3/2012 4:00:18 PM

The Gnome

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

KB is very dangerous, but can be brittle, just as in Midway. If you get lucky, you can punish IJN severely. As Allies, you can always come back with Essex-class CVs, IJN cannot.

But I rarely risk my CVs, unless repulsing invasion and being totally sure KB is not around.

I agree with that, especially if you can engage them in range of your own LBA and once your Devastators have been upgraded to Avengers. I once jumped KB landing at the base north of Noumea and manage to get two sunk CV's at the cost of a badly damaged Lexington and Yorktown. It probably would have turned out a lot worse, but I had a bunch of LBA squadrons massed up at Noumea for support.

My carriers were there escorting a massive convoy to Brisbane out of nothing more than dumb luck. I probably would have lost the island without my CV's being in the area.

As with you though, it's a calculated risk, and one I don't take unless it's an extreme opportunity.

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Post #: 27

RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/3/2012 4:18:25 PM

pharmy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf

Lexington's raid on Rabaul was greeted by a handful of unescorted betties

someone remind me if they were carrying torpedoes or 250kg

I just reread Bruce Gambles Fortress Rabaul - the torpedoes did not arrive in Rabaul so they took 2x250kg bombs - drop tanks for the Zeroes also did not arrive yet, hence why no escort - the 4th Air Group also only had 2 chutais of 18 Betties as about 9-10 a/c that were to form the 3rd chutai were still inbound from the Chitose Airgroup in the Marianas (where they just re-transitioned from Nells)

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Post #: 28

RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/3/2012 4:56:10 PM

Nikademus

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Due to weather and such, they also attacked seperately compounding the lack of escort. Still.....there was a near miss. Ultimately not worth the losses of course but it highlights the 'risk' of war. Had Lex been hit and badly damaged or sunk, it would have made the losses worthwhile.

In the game I'm very wary about attacking a base with proper air defenses. I'll still do it though.....because Boys just wanna have fun. I'd say i've been luckier than unlucky. But on several occasions i've suffered torpedo hits in retaliation for my "raid"

Like the real event......its pinpricking and not really worth the material risk but it does my morale good when i pull it off.

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RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/3/2012 5:40:32 PM

pharmy

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Actually the two Mavis' who spotted Lex were shot down before they could repeat the position, and the two chutais devised a convergent attack, unfortunately for them, not arriving at the same time due to lack of accurate up to date info- the IJN expected Lex to be retiring, instead it was advancing to Rabaul until nightfall, so the advance/vanguard chutai had to backtrack. Still if not for a LT O'Hare (the guy after whom Chicago O'Hare airport is named after) there was still every chance of success as almost all of the CAP except the frustrated O'Hare and his gunned-jammed wing-man (he did not know this at the time) were held back over the carrier by the fighter director while Thach and his buddy's went hunting for glory. He didn't actually shoot down 5 bombers in a row, but the effect was the same, only one straggled onward to try to bodycrash Lexington.

Now if at Midway part of the IJN CAP was kept or sent back up after the TBs attacked, again we might have had an alternate ending.

But I give less money on chance as I think this does demonstrate that radar technology and having a level headed fighter director on the ship is worth far more then the Mark one eyeball.The Japanese system of air-coordination by one of the pilots/observers (offensively, defensively I have no idea how Japanese CAP worked)could have and would have worked if both groups arrived in time or together. If they actually would have a radar equipped Mavis, they could have started their CAP splitting all sides of the compass over visual range.

Played a lot of Harpoon previously and nothing could overcome a USCVN group better then then shadowing Bear recons just out of Phoenix missile range guiding and Bear bombers and Blindfires converging from all points of the compass.

(in reply to Nikademus)

Post #: 30