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Rhine or Ruin (no glvaca) - 6/27/2012 6:59:07 AM

Michael T

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End Soviet Turn 2

Here is the first of a series periodical AAR on my game with glvaca. Probably update every 2 or 3 turns as time permits.

Alt 260VP CG 1941

House Rules.

1. No HQ bombing unless stacked with combat unit.
2. Non-random weather
3. Max. 3 airbase attacks after first turn
4. No landings West of Sevastopol until 1943.
5. No airbase mega fuel harvest. (this is now fixed in latest patch)
6. No para drops to break pockets.

Nothing out of the ordinary in turn 1 or 2 except for my non fight in the south. He overlooked my cutting his lead Mech units off in AGC. But a small error. He is so far ahead of his supply line that not much fuel would get thru anyhow. He has probably tanked up his HQ with air supply.

My aims for summer 1941 are pretty basic. Survive. Save the army as best I can and evac as much important industry as possible. If other opportunities present then act. Steam roll back in winter and aim for a ~6m army around May 42. My strategy will remain flexible, run when needed, stand when needed, attack when needed.

So far Kiev, Mogilev and Kremenchug evacuated of all Arm Ind.

Just got turn 3 from Glenn and no disasters to report�.yet :) So far so good.

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< Message edited by Michael T -- 6/27/2012 7:04:20 AM >

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RE: Rhine or Ruin - 6/27/2012 7:00:47 AM

Michael T

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Some more info including close up of cut off spearhead.

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RE: Rhine or Ruin - 6/27/2012 8:06:02 AM

Peltonx

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GHC advance in north seems slow, he should be across or at least at the Pskov.

GHC advance in center is too narrow. The advance here reminds me of how I use to play until playing a good russian player. The pocket you formed means little as AGC generally cannot advance much until turn 5 or 6 becauce of supply issues.

GHC advance in south is normal.

SHC defences seem too loose(checker board), which if attacked right will cause very hvy losses over time for the SHC. But mybee you will tighten this up once hes almost out of range of his rail heads.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 6/27/2012 8:08:43 AM >

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RE: Rhine or Ruin - 6/27/2012 8:17:42 AM

Michael T

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The defences will morph in to whatever I see fit to work best at that point in time and space. If I have a Soviet doctrine its to remain flexible.

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RE: Rhine or Ruin - 6/27/2012 8:32:07 AM

76mm

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Michel, you didn't show everyone's favorite topic: the Lvov opening; how much did you lose there? Looks like he's almost at Kiev on Turn 2?!

Also, given your stated position on this issue, I'm surprised that it looks like you're running away in the south, and generally you are not defending forward.

Finally, looks like you've left several HQ units in harm's way, what is your thinking with these HQs?

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RE: Rhine or Ruin - 6/27/2012 8:59:35 AM

Michael T

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@76mm. I just ran in the south. I am trying to prove a point in this game. If the SU is allowed total freedom of action it cannot lose. I would prefer the game forced me to defend forward to a degree, or a agreed house rule that did so. But this game is under no such rules. Its a free for all in that regard. As for the HQ's I just have other priorites. No spare rail to get them away any further. They all seemed to gravitate to the swamp lands in turn 1. Lvov was the standard loss. No surprises or mercy shown :)

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RE: Rhine or Ruin - 6/27/2012 9:04:07 AM

76mm

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OK, thanks for the clarification.

I will certainly be interested to see what happens, although when you say that you'll show the Sovs can't lose, I don't think you'll be able to show that unless you play until '45, unless you really drub him in the blizzard.

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RE: Rhine or Ruin - 6/27/2012 10:47:42 AM

Peltonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

Michel, you didn't show everyone's favorite topic: the Lvov opening; how much did you lose there? Looks like he's almost at Kiev on Turn 2?!

Also, given your stated position on this issue, I'm surprised that it looks like you're running away in the south, and generally you are not defending forward.

Finally, looks like you've left several HQ units in harm's way, what is your thinking with these HQs?

Delaying in the south is the only option. Kiev falling on turn 3 is totally possible.

The trick is delaying, but not running. If the SHC runs in the south then D-town and Z-town could fall on turn 4, Stalino turn 7 and Stalingrad on turn 14, I have done it more then once.

Pelton

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< Message edited by Pelton -- 6/27/2012 5:54:16 PM >

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RE: Rhine or Ruin - 6/27/2012 11:01:52 AM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
The trick is delaying, but not running. If the SHC runs in the south then D-town and Z-town could fall on turn 4 and Stalino turn 7. I have done it more then once.

I think I've seen you do it, but wasn't that under your old "factory raiding" strategy? I guess with a "mass encirclement" strategy it could take a few turns longer but must still create a serious evac problem for the Sovs?

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RE: Rhine or Ruin - 6/27/2012 3:10:35 PM

Peltonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
The trick is delaying, but not running. If the SHC runs in the south then D-town and Z-town could fall on turn 4 and Stalino turn 7. I have done it more then once.

I think I've seen you do it, but wasn't that under your old "factory raiding" strategy? I guess with a "mass encirclement" strategy it could take a few turns longer but must still create a serious evac problem for the Sovs?

Yes was under raiding strategy.

As MT is doing playing SHC, the GHC needs to also be very flexable.

1. Raiding when possible, not just factorys but citys, like the raid I did vs M60 to cut rail lines around Moscow.
2. Mass encirclement strategy.
3. Jamians grinding strategy.

Personally I am just starting to try and mix all 3 into on over all flex-strategy. I have done some grinding vs zxr8421 but only in 1942 and vs M60 in 1943.

Bobo will be the first game where I try and use all the strategys in the tool kit.

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RE: Rhine or Ruin - 6/27/2012 3:14:22 PM

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wow, ultimate check-boarding experience

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RE: Rhine or Ruin - 6/27/2012 3:41:39 PM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
Personally I am just starting to try and mix all 3 into on over all flex-strategy.
* * *
Bobo will be the first game where I try and use all the strategys in the tool kit.

Yikes, that will be scary, will have to watch that one...

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RE: Rhine or Ruin (no glvaca) - 6/30/2012 4:21:28 PM

HITMAN202

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Pelton's criticism about a too narrow advance in AGC is a pet peeve with me. Granted, I'm still new at this game, but the only other option for the Germans in AGC is to dilly dally. The Smolensk land bridge, which is the hardest section for the Soviets to defend, juts out at the northern advance of AGS. It lies in the shortest, direct path to Moscow. AGC Pz can attack it on the 2 nd turn, infantry on the 3 rd turn. This schwerpunkt forces the Soviets to similarly concentrate their AGC's defensive front, opens up the door for a major encirclement and possibly taxes an already over-stretched rail net. The Dnepr line in AGC in is best out-flanked from the north. To hammer across it is a waste of time.

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RE: Rhine or Ruin (no glvaca) - 6/30/2012 4:50:23 PM

Peltonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

Pelton's criticism about a too narrow advance in AGC is a pet peeve with me. Granted, I'm still new at this game, but the only other option for the Germans in AGC is to dilly dally. The Smolensk land bridge, which is the hardest section for the Soviets to defend, juts out at the northern advance of AGS. It lies in the shortest, direct path to Moscow. AGC Pz can attack it on the 2 nd turn, infantry on the 3 rd turn. This schwerpunkt forces the Soviets to similarly concentrate their AGC's defensive front, opens up the door for a major encirclement and possibly taxes an already over-stretched rail net. The Dnepr line in AGC in is best out-flanked from the north. To hammer across it is a waste of time.

I think the mistake many SHC players are doing is being anal about arm pts and tring to save them all, which greatly weakens the front lines. They can have very strong defences for 20ish hexes, but then have very weak defences for 20 hexes unitl next "important" area. Flaviusx way of doing arm evac is by far the smartest, you lose 35ish which hurts in no way. It takes atleast 70 to hurt. I am guessing that the amount of hvy lost is hurting supplys more in late 42-43 then lossing 50ish arm pts from what i have read, so hvy does matter. How much or how many I have no idea.

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RE: Rhine or Ruin (no glvaca) - 6/30/2012 7:11:49 PM

Farfarer61

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Once there is some slack as Sov I evac HI before the 1942 Axis offensive. I also do not like (these) house rules - even though I assess the Sov side is more likely to win in any given game. Disclosure, I stopped bombing Axis airfields after my first PBEM game - agree this is needed for balance.

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RE: Rhine or Ruin - 6/30/2012 11:11:00 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

@76mm. I just ran in the south. I am trying to prove a point in this game. If the SU is allowed total freedom of action it cannot lose. I would prefer the game forced me to defend forward to a degree, or a agreed house rule that did so. But this game is under no such rules. Its a free for all in that regard. As for the HQ's I just have other priorites. No spare rail to get them away any further. They all seemed to gravitate to the swamp lands in turn 1. Lvov was the standard loss. No surprises or mercy shown :)

From what I see of your southern defense of the Dnepr from Kiev to Cherkassy, and what you've stated above, I agree this is the unequivocal 'can't lose' strategy in the south.

What I feel, having played (and succeeded) more with Soviet than German (not that I think I'm more than an average player) is that the Lvov complaints are a red herring. If I were playing Soviet and did not have a Lvov, I still would not fight forward: I would make the Dnepr into a true equivalent of the maginot as best as time would allow.

When you are forced to fight a deliberate attack over all points of the Dnepr against stacks of 2 and 3, it takes 3 or 4 turns just to establish a position from which to then break out. If the Lvov units survive, then this would be the de-facto Soviet strategy once the romanticism of a forward fight played themselves out as they always do west of the Dnepr (Germany uses multiple buildups and surrounds the whole lot of it).

As an aside:
I have found that as Soviet that placing mobile stacks (cav or arm) in the rough hexes west of the river can occasionally make the German crazy and/or achieve something unlikely (like an airfield over-run). I don't know if you've ever experimented with the strat (or if it works at your caliber of play and opponents). You can either force an attack against you in ideal terrain (though a retreat means extra losses - which is no big deal where tank divisions are concerned, since they are 1-and-done anyway) or you can restrict ZOCs/supply MPs, and occasionally you get to open a pocket or displace an FBD or something.

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RE: Rhine or Ruin - 7/1/2012 2:13:40 AM

Michael T

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I wouldn't put myself in the top echelon of Soviet players yet I have never been seriously threatened with defeat. With the strategy I am allowed to impose I can never see how a German can avoid ultimate defeat. We shall see how it goes in this game.

As a matter of interest I just unwittingly wasted 100 AP moving two AA Reg from Smolensk and V Luki! A trap for young players.... really some kind of warning should be popped up when doing this. I just assumed it would be 1 AP. But now checking the rules I see it is clearly stated that it will cost 50 AP per Reg. WOW. Its a bit crazy really. You can run with every plane, tank, soldier, factory, cow, dog and even the last chicken coop, but dare not take away those AA guns!!

Anyway an update soon.

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RE: Rhine or Ruin - 7/1/2012 3:15:38 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

As a matter of interest I just unwittingly wasted 100 AP moving two AA Reg from Smolensk and V Luki! A trap for young players.... really some kind of warning should be popped up when doing this. I just assumed it would be 1 AP. But now checking the rules I see it is clearly stated that it will cost 50 AP per Reg. WOW. Its a bit crazy really. You can run with every plane, tank, soldier, factory, cow, dog and even the last chicken coop, but dare not take away those AA guns!!

Anyway an update soon.

Interesting idea, what if factory evacuation cost APs? Would that make any difference to the meta game of soviet withdrawl, as the system is now it seems it is to simple and fast to move production away from the front line, which is a major factor in the Soviet flat out retreat strategy. An extra decision on wether to spend Aps or not could make a difference? Or maybe it would have no effect...

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RE: Rhine or Ruin - 7/1/2012 4:30:49 AM

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Soviet players would be fine with that, but you'd have to increase the AP budget.

The reason AA costs so much to move (for both sides) is that AA are also propaganda weapons meant to make civilians feel safe in wartime. Taking them away from cities causes unrest and turmoil. If you are Axis and find yourself with APs to burn then I can fathom this being an ok idea to get a few more 88s on the front, but for the Sovs its abject suicide.

Don't forget to set TOEs for arty, AA at 50-60%. This will steer your production towards infantry squads, which is what you need in 41.

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RE: Rhine or Ruin - 7/1/2012 7:35:58 AM

Encircled

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65% is generally enough I find.

I tend to whack up any Guard artillery to 100% as soon as they gain the status

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RE: Rhine or Ruin - 7/1/2012 7:40:28 AM

Michael T

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quote:

Don't forget to set TOEs for arty, AA at 50-60%.

I know that one. Actually all the obvious ones I do know. But the City AA snuck up on me. 100 AP wasted arrghh!

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RE: Rhine or Ruin - 7/1/2012 2:19:46 PM

notenome

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

65% is generally enough I find.

I tend to whack up any Guard artillery to 100% as soon as they gain the status

Yeah I do the same for my guards support elements. They are guards, after all.

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RE: Rhine or Ruin - 7/3/2012 6:57:48 AM

Michael T

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End Soviet Turn 4

The great retreat in the south continues. Starting to firm up in the centre. In the north we have a little surprise in store for the Finns and south of Leningrad the lines are now shaping up. The basic strategy should now start to become obvious. Its pretty much an all or nothing approach. This turn I moved out the T34's from Kharkov plus 12 Arm from D-town. So far the only Arm Ind lost is the Minsk group. Losses for the Soviets are very minimal and to date there have been no encirclements since turn 1.

In his T5 I expect a strong surge towards Leningrad. No idea really what he will do in the centre or south. Not much I hope. But he really needs to do something in the centre now. He will be struggling with supplies in the south.

The defences to this point have been mass checkers but now that the stop lines are being approached multiple lines will start to form around Leningrad and Moscow. These two areas have all my best units and get the bulk of reinforcements. The south relies on staying out of reach. I am trying something with the Finns I haven't done before. That is to try and stop them at lake Janisjarvi. When and if Leningrad falls I don't want the north to collapse because of the Finns charging across the Svir.

Just got glvaca's Turn 5, no disasters to report.

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RE: Rhine or Ruin - 7/3/2012 6:58:34 AM

Michael T

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More data...

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RE: Rhine or Ruin - 7/3/2012 11:56:25 AM

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Nice job man. I see no reason why Leningrad cant be held now.

With HQ nerfed its almost not worth doing it. The early turn rushes will be a thing of the past making the game much much easyer to win as russsian. The German side has to get pockets later in 41.

Probably not going to see pockets until turn 10ish if there even possible because russian defences will be way way stronger. We are kinda back to 1.04 now I beleive, Berlin being steam rolled in late 44.

Not sure what your doing with your cav but I would pullem all back and save them for blizzard as they are insanely over powered. Tank units are almost worthless from what I see playing vs computer. Why even build any? As Russian you know you can atleast steamroll to Berlin with just inf corps by late 44 because destroying German infantry morale is so easy . Cav is the way to go.

So many exploits to use withen the rule set as russian its a little crazy.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 7/3/2012 12:16:54 PM >

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RE: Rhine or Ruin - 7/3/2012 12:38:29 PM

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You might temp the Axis to do the extended right hook to Onega :)

As to the steamroller, perhaps the MP cost of assaulting forts should be higher? Or perhaps the "entering the ZOC cost of a fort" is higher? |The rationale being well planned arcs of fire, fire support, minefields etc. Then the Armored Corps have a role as only they might have enough MP to do attacks on a second line of defence.

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RE: Rhine or Ruin - 7/3/2012 1:01:52 PM

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Nice to see someone seriously defend Leningrad, the German may get caught napping here before committing the necessary resources. I would definitely look to fortify the hex east of Pavlovo though. I am also surprised you have given up the Dnepr line so early, generally that can be a serious obstacle in delaying the German as well. This looks to be a very interesting match.

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RE: Rhine or Ruin - 7/3/2012 1:16:29 PM

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It's essential to make a fight out of Leningrad in every game, even if it falls, keeping the Axis busy there until mud helps Moscow. But if the Axis really wants it, they are probably going to get it. It really depends how much they reinforce AGN. If AGN is just stock, then it is possible to hold on to Leningrad if the Soviet pours a lot of stuff there.

If the Axis doesn't reinforce AGN, this is worst of all worlds for him. Leningrad may not fall and PG4 is stuck up there for the whole summer without accomplishing its objective, and in turn never gets a chance to hit Moscow. That is why, imo, the Axis ought to massively reinforce AGN every time. Moscow can wait until August. Logistics alone will prevent a big push in the center until then. AGC has to push the rails past Smolensk. You can still get two full clear months in the center after knocking out Leningrad.

Micheal is doing pretty much what I do: heavy on the north (even trying to stop the Finns cold, which is something everybody ought to do), then the center, and delaying in the south. But I think he's running away too fast in the south and could have problems with factory evacuations down the line. I don't see a reason to let the Axis cross the Dnepr before turn 6.

He doesn't have diggers yet on the Neva, that's a possible error.

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RE: Rhine or Ruin - 7/3/2012 1:30:55 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonso
Nice to see someone seriously defend Leningrad, the German may get caught napping here before committing the necessary resources. I would definitely look to fortify the hex east of Pavlovo though. I am also surprised you have given up the Dnepr line so early, generally that can be a serious obstacle in delaying the German as well. This looks to be a very interesting match.

I think the point Michael wants to establish with this match is that even if he just runs for the hills and losses the South, Moscow and Leningrad in 41, he can still stall the 42 Axis summer offensive and achieve a Soviet Major Victory before May 45. Although in that case he shouldn't be holding onto anything except his army. I doubt it will work, but I am curious to see the result. So far I think he forgoes the chance even for a minor victory if the runs in 41, although at least his army may be in better shape for some counteroffensives in contrast to the common state when the Axis player just overruns the Soviets, brute force.

But what would either outcome of this AAR mean? Would it prove the point that this war was never about terrain lost or won, but about keeping the armies from falling apart? Well, we know that from the books already, no matter who'd reach Berlin first. If Michael fails, and even scores a draw or loses, it will prove that running is a losing strategy.

What would be much much more important in my opinion would be an AAR against one of those extremely aggressive and fast Axis players that shows that given the present conditions and rule sets it is possible to survive as Russian by holding forward and counterattacking vigilantly, as history proved it to be possible. In the end, this whole discussion isn't about whether it is the smartest strategy to withdraw in 41/42 summers as Russian, or in the 41 winter as Axis, but whether there exists a strategy or the means that would allow a good Soviet player to hold something like historical lines by December 41 and have enough means (AP points, pools units) to start a blizzard offensive and also conquer Berlin in the long run.
If Michael played an AAR where he deliberately fought for pretty much every hex, and counterattacked despite heavy casualties, and yet still were in control over Moscow and Leningrad by the time he would launch a powerful blizzard counteroffensive (if...), this would make a really important point. However, thus far nobody succeeded to prove this point...

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RE: Rhine or Ruin - 7/3/2012 1:42:02 PM

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That is a lot of counters on the board for the Russians.

I agree with Flav about Leningrad and trying to delay the Germans long enough that AGN can't make a huge impact on the battle for Moscow in 1941.

Historically, I think the Germans should have taken Leningrad to free their left up (while also freeing the Finns to make a serious push on the Murmansk RR). The extra troops should have then been used to take Moscow. There is essentially nothing past Leningrad south of the river until you get to Archangelsk and that is a long, long way to go.

Be interesting to see how this goes.

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