This is rediculous!

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Steel Panthers World At War & Mega Campaigns >> SP:WaW Training Center >> This is rediculous!

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This is rediculous! - 12/6/2002 12:45:08 AM

kevsharr

Posts: 88
Joined: 2/5/2002
From: Conyers, Georgia
Status: offline

I started a long camp. as the Jap.The first battle appear's to be a meeting engagement with the British .I have a full company of A infantry supported by three Chi-Ha's and a couple of mg's attacking one of the obj.I storm the hill taking half of the v flag's when here comes the British or should I say Supermen,a boy's atr team moves into a hex adjacent to a t-97 and two inf.squad's the tank and one of the sq.were not moving.All of the unit's shoot at this moving enemy unit to no evail he proceed's to button the tank pin one inf.unit and cause the third to throw smoke and retreat.In an adjacent hex a Brit. inf. sq.moves onto a v flag IN THE OPEN comes under fire from a Chi-Ha a type 3 mg. and three count 'em three inf sq.'s.Apparently their wearing Kevlar full body suit's because they apperantly escape unharmed and proceed's to shoot up my inf.unit's which are in two different hex's which are adjacent to him.Two of these unit's were not moving and were set to defend,one was pinned the other forced to retreat!
If I were playing the British side and attempted this I would be slaughtered.
If as in a reply to another post say's this ai advantage is to make up for it's lousy tactic's how do you defend against these tactic's.I had moved my unit's up and stopped them and allowed the Brit.'s to advance into my[jokingly said]kill zone and it did'nt work.Then to top it of the comp. evidently choose a large number of 3 inch mortar's but when he fires them and I'm told he has no los what happen's he able to pound the SAME hex 8 times,When I call in a 75mm offboard arty strike with no los in desperation to remove the threat of advancing Brit. god-like being's my strikes form a shotgun pattern and some land on my own men.
Granted if the game were to easy it would'nt be any fun but going to the other extreme is not fun either.
Three Brit. unit's have held up the advance of an entire inf.company and they were'nt dug in they were moving.Someone help me to understand

Post #: 1

- 12/6/2002 3:26:12 AM

Alexandra

Posts: 546
Joined: 12/7/2000
From: USA
Status: offline

Well, let's see how we can help.

First of all, things like that happen IRL, too, as many accounts of the war can tell you.

But, first of all, the AI opfire advantage is a small one. It gets 3 OpFire shots, a player gets 2. Normally. Sometimes it gets 4.

It gets no hit advantage.

Now, in your particular example, what I think it might be is experience. If the British troops have better exp ratings then your own, then they won't get hit as much. Exp is a major force modifier, as veteran and elite units get more shots with better chances to hit. So, look at your until exp scores, and if they are low, that explains it - and infantry tactics will come with time :).

Now, as for arty. You are comparing two different things. Mortars are much shorter ranged and much less drifty, than OBA. OBA tends to be safer and hit harder, but scatters more. Why?
Because the OBA rounds are coming from much farther away and so minor targeting errors will result in big spreads.

How to deal with this?

Here's what I do. I'll use my last battle in the Stalingrad Camp as an example. For arty I had 8 mortar (7 core), 2 SPA, and 2 batteries of 150mm OBA.

I used mortars for point targets - my B commands might be - 1 for each of three squads, 2 for a bunker to supress it, 2 more for the pesky AA gun, and here, one more for the ATR team. But, with the SPA and 150mm's, I'd area fire - take this, town hall - and give it a volley of 150s. I didn't care where the rounds hit, I was putting fire over the area and anything I got from it - and you are bound to get something if you place it right, is bonus :)

Hope it helps.

Alex

_____________________________

"Tonight a dynasty is born." Ricky Proehl, then of the Saint Louis Rams. He was right! Go Pats! Winners of Super Bowls 36, 38 and 39.

(in reply to kevsharr)

Post #: 2

- 12/6/2002 8:05:48 AM

Irinami

Posts: 746
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Florida, USA
Status: offline

If you can see it, hit it with some mortars.

If you know where it is, but can't see it, hit it with the big guns.

And the esteemed Lady Alexandria (her reputation preceeds her) is quite correct. Try playing Nationalist China vs. USSR in '44. Even your anti-tank teams will freak and bugg-out at the sight of something metal that makes a lot of noise. Like an Oreck vacuum cleaner. :mad: ;)

Not only is it Experience, but it is also the Infantry score for the commander. Their Rally score comes into play as well, and Morale once in a while is handy.

If you haven't played it, try Tanks at Munda (in my .sig). Play it until you don't have to replace a single tank. If you've already done so, then try this:

Set up in tank-busting positions. Put anti-tank teams (bazookas, ATR's, grenadiers, and Japanese have suicide squads in late-war) in forest hexes by some clear land. Put up some MMG's and HMG's for overwatch to pin the tracked vehicles. Knee Mortars would be EXCELLENTLY used here for suppression.

Good luck, and thanks--this gives me a great idea for a test scenario.

_____________________________

Newbies!!
Wild Bill's Tanks at Munda Mini-Campaign. The training campaign for comb

(in reply to kevsharr)

Post #: 3

- 12/6/2002 9:08:31 PM

kevsharr

Posts: 88
Joined: 2/5/2002
From: Conyers, Georgia
Status: offline

I guess I've just been playing to many wargames at the same time-Rising Sun,Combat Mission,TOAW-COW,throw in Silent Hunter II and sid Meier's Antietam and they all start to get confusing.I guess I need to practise the tutorial's but I can't find them in the printed out manual only the first one.Somewhere else on this forum somebody posted the #9 tut.Caves would appreciate if someone could do the same for the rest,I did a search but it only informed me it was in the manual but I can't find it.Besides I went thru and deleted a lot of what I considered unneccessary stuff in the main folder in order to save some harddrive space,having two copies[H2H and 7.1]is pretty hefty.
I have tried WBW's Steel and Sand[which is the Tank's at Munda camp.]I won the first battle with a MV but got my head handed to me in the second defencive battle those pesky Japanese just rush up and knock my tank's out no matter what I throw at them.
Also what about knee-mortar's?Are they direct or indirect?I tried using them in my generated camp.[had six]but they were unusable in the indirect fire mode,something about being out of contact.The only way to make them show activation on the arty screen was to keep a HQ's unit nearby but he'd be out of los to any potential target after a few turn's.{sound's like I need alot of help,should I make this last question a seperate topic?}
Thanx for the help and any more you can give:) :)

(in reply to kevsharr)

Post #: 4

- 12/6/2002 9:28:25 PM

Alexandra

Posts: 546
Joined: 12/7/2000
From: USA
Status: offline

Well, I can't answer about knee mortars. I *think* that they are indirect, but I've not played the Japanese much.

As for target LOS with the mortar's, don't worry about it.

In my Stalingrad campaign, my mortar platoon is 7 SP Mortars, and an FO. All the mortars are assigned to the FO (via the new leader button), and so he is the platoon leader. I deploy them all well back, and use him as a primitve FDC. He stays near them, calls in fire with a 0.4 delay, and, since they are mortars, they don't scatter much. He does get scatter with OBA, with no LOS, but never that much - 3 hexes off is the worst I've seen - and with 150mm OBA that usually mean the target still gets hit!

Alex

_____________________________

"Tonight a dynasty is born." Ricky Proehl, then of the Saint Louis Rams. He was right! Go Pats! Winners of Super Bowls 36, 38 and 39.

(in reply to kevsharr)

Post #: 5

- 12/6/2002 9:56:49 PM

Jim1954

Posts: 1393
Joined: 5/15/2002
From: Dallas
Status: offline

Kevsharr.... look on pp 81 of the manual, that's the tutorial section. If it's possible for you, it sure is handy to have this puppy printed out. Saves a lot of looking.

:)

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Post #: 6

- 12/6/2002 10:26:27 PM

kevsharr

Posts: 88
Joined: 2/5/2002
From: Conyers, Georgia
Status: offline

Thank's alex.I did'nt know about the accuracy of mortar's that have an fo out of los,maybe it represent's a fire order from a unit in los?
As for the manual I have a printed out one v-3.0 and page 81 deal's with map editing

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Post #: 7

- 12/6/2002 10:30:24 PM

Jim1954

Posts: 1393
Joined: 5/15/2002
From: Dallas
Status: offline

The new one is for 5.0. That is the one I'm referring to. Is the manual pdf available for download w/o having to pull the whole 450+ MB mess, I don't know. Maybe some one who has an install in front of them can post it as a zip file. Being stuck at work prevents me from helping you any further, but if no one else has done anything with this by tonight, I'll try to do it.

;)

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Post #: 8

- 12/7/2002 12:20:45 AM

kevsharr

Posts: 88
Joined: 2/5/2002
From: Conyers, Georgia
Status: offline

Thank's I went back and discovered that I had'ent deleted the manual from the original version of 7.1 that I had copied for h2h so I found the tut's.My original download was back in dec 01and it was 5.0 when I upgraded I did'nt realize the manual updated also.Now if I could figure out how to copy just the pages I need from adobe?
Thank's again I think I'll make a seperate post on the subject of the knee mortar they are intriqueing in that I believe that they did'nt make as much noise as a standard mortar since they were merely throwing a standard grenade,I wonder if this stealh quality is modelled in sp?

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Post #: 9

- 12/7/2002 12:35:07 AM

Jim1954

Posts: 1393
Joined: 5/15/2002
From: Dallas
Status: offline

I know they sure are tough. In MCWT I had a knee mortar squad cornered and they fought to the last Samurai before they died. 15 casualties!! Didn't think they were ever gonna give it up.

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Post #: 10

- 12/7/2002 12:37:09 AM

Jim1954

Posts: 1393
Joined: 5/15/2002
From: Dallas
Status: offline

As far as adobe goes, just open up the document, select print (not the icon, the command) and tell it what page range you want to print. Should work ok.

(in reply to kevsharr)

Post #: 11

- 12/7/2002 12:54:29 AM

kevsharr

Posts: 88
Joined: 2/5/2002
From: Conyers, Georgia
Status: offline

Thank's alot I've had this computer for a year[first one truly MINE]and learn something new everyday

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Post #: 12

- 12/7/2002 5:21:12 AM

Irinami

Posts: 746
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Florida, USA
Status: offline

Beat Munda first. That's the key. ;) (Tip: Never ever ever move your tanks in front of your infantry.)

Beyond that...

The tutorials in the manual and the ones supplied with the game get less and less verbatim as you go on. The Engineers one in particular, is supposed to have 2 scenarios (I think) but only has one. No matter, it does a good enough job in conjunction with these forums. I'll make a reply on the Knee Mortars.

_____________________________

Newbies!!
Wild Bill's Tanks at Munda Mini-Campaign. The training campaign for comb

(in reply to kevsharr)

Post #: 13

- 12/7/2002 11:38:49 AM

kevsharr

Posts: 88
Joined: 2/5/2002
From: Conyers, Georgia
Status: offline

Thank's for the infomation I'm starting Munda over again.
Even with Eric Hammel's mistake about the knee mortar it still is a good read[read it twice]but a mistake like that[the knee mortar being spring-loaded]makes you stop and think.

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Post #: 14

- 12/8/2002 12:30:23 AM

Major Destruction

Posts: 881
Joined: 8/10/2000
From: Canada
Status: offline

Light mortars are controlled by the platoon leader.

In any platoon where you have an infantry unit in the command slot and a light mortar in a subordinate slot, the light mortar indirect fire is controlled by the commanding infantry unit.

To be incontact, the Platoon Leader must be close to the light mortar. I like to keep them in adjacent hexes if at all possible.

FO's can also call in light mortar fire but again, the FO needs to be in contact with the light mortar or in contact with the platoon leader- who is in contact with the light mortar.

Indirect fire is more accurate if the target is in LOS of the Platoon Leader.

Light mortar fire provides excellent suppression against tanks and forts. They will also cause casualties on infantry units. An infantry platoon can destroy a tank by suppressing the tank with the light mortar, forcing the crew to bail and then shooting the crew with rifle fire.

Light mortars that are not part of an infantry platoon do not behave in the above mentioned manner. I usually will replace those units during the purchase phase with medium mortars.

_____________________________

They struggled with a ferocity that was to be expected of brave men fighting with forlorn hope against an enemy who had the advantage of position......knowing that courage was the one thing that would save them.

Julius Caesar, 57 BC

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Post #: 15

- 12/8/2002 12:46:15 AM

Major Destruction

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From: Canada
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In a Japanese company, typically the early knee mortars were attached directly to the platoon commander. He would concentrate his mortars for defense if necessary but these weapons were used primarily for signalling by use of coloured smoke rounds. The knee mortars could be parcelled out to the squads; one to each squad, with a fourth tube retained by the platoon commander for signalling.

The Japanese infantry used their light mortars differently from other nations. Tactics involved using the light mortar for defense against infantry attack.

Under infantry attack, the infantry platoon (or company) would fall back onto their mortars and find cover. The mortars would blast the oncoming enemy infantry with accurate, short-range fire, supported by the platoon light machine gun. Rifles were subsidiary weapons in the japanese tactic - riflemen provided supporting fire to the LMG's. Bayonets were the primary weapon in any attack by the riflemen. The LMG was also a primary weapon for attack providing accurate suppressive fire which allowed the riflemen to get in close for bayonet attack.

Once an enemy attack had been stopped by the mortars and LMG's, the riflemen would attack with bayonets to regain their lost ground.

The early knee mortar had a very short range but this could be considered sufficient for use in jungle warfare or when using tactics as I described above. The later model had a longer range which permitted some indirect fire on command of the platoon leader.

Knee mortars could be fired almost on the move. The mortarman could run, stop, fire his weapon and move on pretty much in the same manner as a man firing a rifle. Therefore, in the SPWAW OOB's we see two forms of the light mortar unit. One has a single tube for supporting a platoon, while the other has a three tube setup for firing on the run.

Either unit is very effective when used properly.

_____________________________

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Post #: 16

- 12/11/2002 8:07:52 PM

Vetkin

Posts: 710
Joined: 7/21/2002
From: Philippines
Status: offline

That's why there are such things as the Congressional Medal of Honor for such people (the said Boys AT crew) or the British equivalent thereof :D

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Post #: 17

- 12/13/2002 12:01:14 AM

vahauser

Posts: 1644
Joined: 10/1/2002
From: Texas
Status: offline

kevsharr, without looking over your shoulder and watching what exactly is going on, all I can tell you that for every challenge that SPWAW throws at you there is almost always a solution.

Just remember the USMC Recon Motto: "Improvise, Adapt, Overcome"

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Post #: 18

knee mortors - 12/13/2002 9:22:11 PM

robot

Posts: 1438
Joined: 5/9/2000
From: Covington Ky USA
Status: offline

I have been fighting the russians for 4 months in 1939 campaign. Just now went to 1940 fighting chinese. Have found out a few things about knee mortors. The early knee mortor has a range of 3 hexes only untill 1940. Must be controlled by CO, not by fo. When fired direct they will only fire machine gun. Unless the range is only 3 hexes. The newer model in 1940 has a range of either 13 or 16 hexes. I know the rnge says 13 hexes when you right click and look at weapons. But that is not how they work. This is prior to release in early 1940 of newer model. Have not used them yet as just now got into jan 1940. Will let you know when i am able to upgrade. By the way we whipped the russians bad in four months of fighting. All decivive victoreys. They lost over 5000 men and over 500 tanks. While i lost less then 300 and less then 50 tanks. My fos are assigned to 3 diff mortor platoons. They sit in the middle of each group. I have 8 81MM 6 90mm and 6 120MM. Each one controls diff sized pools. They never have los to target. Seems to work for me. Only bad part is getting exp for fo.

_____________________________

Robots wear armor for skin.Grunts wear skin for armor.

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Post #: 19

- 12/14/2002 6:55:53 AM

Irinami

Posts: 746
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Florida, USA
Status: offline

Reassign your Knee Mortars to be under the command of an FO?

_____________________________

Newbies!!
Wild Bill's Tanks at Munda Mini-Campaign. The training campaign for comb

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Post #: 20

- 12/14/2002 8:23:23 AM

Major Destruction

Posts: 881
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From: Canada
Status: offline

That is gamey.

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Post #: 21

- 12/15/2002 5:08:51 AM

Irinami

Posts: 746
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Florida, USA
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Commander's prerogative. The USMC went through several organizational changes in WWII, mainly centered around reassigning the automatic weapons to the platoons, instead of leaving them as a company asset. Some of these changes came about as a simple fact of combat--id est, when deployed the Companies were already doing this as a matter of fact, so "official" policy changed to suit it. AFAIK.

_____________________________

Newbies!!
Wild Bill's Tanks at Munda Mini-Campaign. The training campaign for comb

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Post #: 22

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Steel Panthers World At War & Mega Campaigns >> SP:WaW Training Center >> This is rediculous!

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