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A Good Old Whinge - 7/6/2012 5:57:42 AM

TableTop66

Posts: 36
Joined: 6/11/2011
Status: offline

I haven't done much posting on matrix forums, and when I do I try to be positive.

However in the last few weeks frustration regarding patches is starting to over take me.

The reason for the frustration is That I brought the following games from Matrix pretty much after release.

Distant worlds: (With all the add ons).

Panzer Command: Ostfront

Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series:

Achtung Panzer Operation Star:

Now when the distant world series began, patches where fairly regular and were good, but since the release of

Distant World Legends this has since slowed right down and now there are rumors of another expansion.

Panzer Command Ostfront Patch seems like we have waiting since the beginning of time for this one.

Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series, has had some amazing updates and commitment by developer but remains flawed

with the air war part of the game.

Achtung Panzer Operation Star this is my most recent purchase from matrix, and the reason I did this was because

we were promised easy patch updates and addons with support.

You can see by my list of games that I,am doing a lot of waiting, and waiting, and waiting for patches that we are told are

always a few weeks away.

I was really happy when I brought APOS because I really like games focused around the eastern war series and this game in particular

ticked all the right boxes with me and what I Like.

However with the patch for APOS now further away and no sign of when the addons will be released I fell this might be the last investment in any future purchases by me for Matrix Games.

It just seems to me that the commitment to support by matrix for fans of there games is starting to become a slippery slope that is getting steeper every day, and yet the announcement of new games continues, which begs the question of why would I buy a new game when I can,t get my old games fixed ?.

Just look through the forums there are countless questions on when is a patch going to be released for what ever game that individual is playing.

How about you do have similar list of games and spend regular time each week visiting matrix forums looking for news of updates ?.

Now that I got that I have had a good old whinge and got that of my Chest,

I will try end on a positive note and thank redmarkus4 for some of his wonderful guides that he has posted for APOS, these guides have kept my interest in APOS going.

Cheers redmarkus4

Regards
Jimbo.

Post #: 1

RE: A Good Old Whinge - 7/6/2012 8:11:35 AM

Redmarkus5

Posts: 4456
Joined: 12/1/2007
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Thanks for the kind words, Jimbo.

I'm with you on Ostfront and WitE - I own them both. What really pissed me off with respect to WitE was the tough time we had getting Matrix to concede that there were serious flaws in the game, even when they were obvious. Many remain unfixed and it's more than just the air war, especially if you want to play vs. the AI.

Now Matrix and Grigsby have gone off to build WitW, using the same WitE engine, but without fixing the original game properly. Good luck to them on that one.

Here we have a real gem of a game that only needs a bit of investment from the 'publisher' (do they do anything more than just host the files and stick a message on their website?) A decent publisher would have ensured that:

1. The game documentation and UI were revised to meet market expectations.
2. Patches were available in a timely fashion. (It turns out that Matrix didn't even know a patch was out!)
3. Expansions/DLC content were for sale on their site. (Dumb to fail on this point - what does it cost to host an expansion for a game you have already marketed?)
4. Visits are made to the Forum whenever there are new messages and some kind of half decent conversation with your customersis maintained.

How to run a software publishing business 1.01.

< Message edited by redmarkus4 -- 7/6/2012 8:12:38 AM >

_____________________________

WitE2 tester, WitW, WitP, CMMO, CM2, GTOS, GTMF, WP & WPP, TOAW4, BA2

(in reply to TableTop66)

Post #: 2

RE: A Good Old Whinge - 7/6/2012 10:43:40 AM

0311USMC

Posts: 55
Joined: 6/4/2012
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It's sad some of the "Stuff" Grigsby has started to shovel.
Yet the fanboy's insist it's the best thing since sliced bread.

_____________________________

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that they could command ships of the line or marshal air armies
without specialized training, almost any fool has felt in his heart
he could command a regiment.

T.R.Fehrenbach

(in reply to Redmarkus5)

Post #: 3

RE: A Good Old Whinge - 7/6/2012 1:27:04 PM

TableTop66

Posts: 36
Joined: 6/11/2011
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The four points you raised I agree with you redmarkus4.

With regards Point 3, matrix could host the expansions at little or no cost but let's hope they don't do that before releasing a patch.

Even if they were to by some miracle release a patch this coming week for APOS what assurance would we have that patches for the expansions would be regular.

Let's take a closer look at some of the games I have brought and mentioned.

Distant World Legends: release date 23 Nov 2011. Nearly 8 Months since release, no patch.

Panzer Command Ostfront: release date 12 May 2011. Nearly 15 Months and a patch may be close. ?

Yes these games have beta patches, but for a casual weekender game player such as my self this is irrelevant.

there's no way I'm spending a week end uninstalling and reinstalling a game for experimental patches where all

of my saved games are useless.

In other gaming communities would this amount of waiting time for patches be accepted ? ( I doubt It)

So back to APOS even if the expansions were released later this year would it be next year before they were patched ?

I will stop here before I'm Arrested for key board abuse

Jimbo

(in reply to 0311USMC)

Post #: 4

RE: A Good Old Whinge - 7/6/2012 1:30:38 PM

budd

Posts: 2972
Joined: 7/4/2009
From: Tacoma
Status: offline

I'd probably call myself a bit of a matrix fanboy and a very patient person. They have always done right by me and i prefer to buy here if possible. That said i did buy this game at gamersgate, which was simply an economic one [got game and addons for $23]. I certainly see what you are saying overall, I own combat command and pco. The withdrawal bug in combat command was the first time i have bought a game here that i couldn't play[withdrawal bug, fixed now...wonderful game, i'd recommend it] it took longer than anyone waiting for it was comfortable with and contact was minimal in the forums.
I've been tracking the PCO forums and am aware of the situation. The frustrating part there is they say the patch is done....ok why are we waiting. That game was next on my playlist, until i starting playing this one.

To me it just seems like they have to many irons in the fire. I don't know if there still adjusting to the new partnership or not, but there has been a difference. It certainly looks like some titles get more attention than others, i hope that's not based on any sales numbers because it's never been like that here before. I read pretty much all the forums when there's new posts. When you see daily or semi daily posts from dev's and Matrix in some forums and no reply in others....makes you wonder, and might certainly give people pause when deciding what or when to buy. It's a slippery slope and from my point of view they need to pick up their game, especially with their non-headlining games. Give people some contact and info and don't leave them on an island and it's all good.

After all that Matrix has earned alot of credibility with me through the years. I'll certainly still buy here [Decisive Campaigns: Case Blue looks like what's next for me, hoping for a bundle deal

].

But Matrix.......PICK UP YOUR GAME

_____________________________

Enjoy when you can, and endure when you must. ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

"Be Yourself; Everyone else is already taken" ~Oscar Wilde

*I'm in the Wargamer middle ground*
I don't buy all the wargames I want, I just buy more than I need.

(in reply to 0311USMC)

Post #: 5

RE: A Good Old Whinge - 7/6/2012 2:51:45 PM

GBS

Posts: 903
Joined: 7/3/2002
From: Southeastern USA
Status: offline

In this case anyone reading this forum and thinking of buying APOS should NOT purchase it from Martix. I don't mind saying that here because I have spent plenty of $ with Matrix over the years. Gamersgate is definitely the way to go.
I agree with **budd**, something aint right. I'm a big Panther games fan and i really wish Arjuna could publish his games himself.
As for WiTE, I still enjoy it and will purchase the next game as well. Perhaps I'm not sophisticated enough to know better.

(in reply to budd)

Post #: 6

RE: A Good Old Whinge - 7/6/2012 2:56:10 PM

GBS

Posts: 903
Joined: 7/3/2002
From: Southeastern USA
Status: offline

The face of Graviteam to the world is a Ukrainian gentleman called Andrey. He is very accommodating and helpful and he is all over the Graviteam forum and the SimHQ forum as well but never here.....I wonder why.

(in reply to GBS)

Post #: 7

RE: A Good Old Whinge - 7/6/2012 4:41:08 PM

mbar

Posts: 492
Joined: 3/17/2010
Status: offline

Old Gamer 66

quote:

However with the patch for APOS now further away and no sign of when the addons will be released I fell this might be the last investment in any future purchases by me for Matrix Games.

It just seems to me that the commitment to support by matrix for fans of there games is starting to become a slippery slope that is getting steeper every day, and yet the announcement of new games continues, which begs the question of why would I buy a new game when I can,t get my old games fixed ?.

Just look through the forums there are countless questions on when is a patch going to be released for what ever game that individual is playing.

How about you do have similar list of games and spend regular time each week visiting matrix forums looking for news of updates ?.

My list is..
Achtung Panzer - patches or DLC
Time of Fury - patch 1.02 and the new mini Europe map
Team Assault - no patch since release and it's needed one from day one.
Frozen Synapse - has been updated and DLC released elsewhere. Fortunately mode7 allowed me to download a full updated installer.
Close Combat: any version - no patch since re-release.

**Budd**

quote:

To me it just seems like they have to many irons in the fire. I don't know if there still adjusting to the new partnership or not, but there has been a difference. It certainly looks like some titles get more attention than others, i hope that's not based on any sales numbers because it's never been like that here before.

I hope it's not sales based but it looks as if it is. I'm thinking that buying at release is less of an option. Better to let the dust settle and see where the game is in 3 months. I too am wondering what this merger is doing behind the scenes. I'm not speculating on anything but things have noticeably changed.

(in reply to TableTop66)

Post #: 8

RE: A Good Old Whinge - 7/6/2012 9:30:17 PM

Sgt.Fury25

Posts: 141
Joined: 1/11/2008
Status: offline

Hi all,let me join OG66 in saying thanks to those who tried to help with the D\L.Im just pissed that matrix dosent have the decency to let us know whats going on with this game.Let us know your working on it or not!

(in reply to TableTop66)

Post #: 9

RE: A Good Old Whinge - 7/6/2012 10:28:06 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

Hi Old Gamer,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Old Gamer 66
Now when the distant world series began, patches where fairly regular and were good, but since the release of
Distant World Legends this has since slowed right down and now there are rumors of another expansion.

Keep in mind that patches are focused on fixing problems. We also add features and improvements, but issues are the main driver. Legends is in very good shape and we went through many update iterations for it. We also made an update available for Return of the Shakturi to bring it closer to the Legends level.

quote:

Panzer Command Ostfront Patch seems like we have waiting since the beginning of time for this one.

Guilty as charged, but it should finally be coming out next week.

quote:

Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series, has had some amazing updates and commitment by developer but remains flawed
with the air war part of the game.

War in the East has been massively updated and supported - it's easy to find a flaw in a large and complex game, but frankly the Air War works well considering the land war is the main focus and the air forces are in a supporting role. An update is not the place to redesign the air engine, that's in the works for War in the West.

quote:

Achtung Panzer Operation Star this is my most recent purchase from matrix, and the reason I did this was because
we were promised easy patch updates and addons with support.

Correct and apart from the recent holiday, we've been working with Graviteam to get the updates into our system. This has not been the easiest process but this is the first time we are doing this with them and it's a relatively new relationship. Once we get through this, future updates should be much more in sync. Keep in mind that if you cannot wait, you can apply the update directly from Graviteam. I understand the frustration on this point.

quote:

It just seems to me that the commitment to support by matrix for fans of there games is starting to become a slippery slope that is getting steeper every day, and yet the announcement of new games continues, which begs the question of why would I buy a new game when I can,t get my old games fixed ?.

There is also an important difference between a game being updated/improved and a game being "fixed". For most of our games, the first update or two is all that's necessary to fix any serious issues. After that, it's a matter of improving the game and that's really a bonus for the customer.

quote:

Just look through the forums there are countless questions on when is a patch going to be released for what ever game that individual is playing.

That has always been the case - customers are always eager for more updates. What you might also do is look at the list of public beta and official updates that we have released already this year and you'll see that we have been quite busy updating and supporting our games too.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to TableTop66)

Post #: 10

RE: A Good Old Whinge - 7/6/2012 10:31:20 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4
Here we have a real gem of a game that only needs a bit of investment from the 'publisher' (do they do anything more than just host the files and stick a message on their website?) A decent publisher would have ensured that:

1. The game documentation and UI were revised to meet market expectations.
2. Patches were available in a timely fashion. (It turns out that Matrix didn't even know a patch was out!)
3. Expansions/DLC content were for sale on their site. (Dumb to fail on this point - what does it cost to host an expansion for a game you have already marketed?)
4. Visits are made to the Forum whenever there are new messages and some kind of half decent conversation with your customersis maintained.

How to run a software publishing business 1.01.

I think some clarification is needed on this. Had Graviteam signed on with us exclusively, making us their sole publisher, that is exactly what we would have done. Frankly, we are hoping that will happen in the future. In the meantime, we are working with them as a distributor and trying to build a publisher-developer relationship. For that reason, we were not able to make the documentation and UI improvements we would normally have done, nor replace the existing patch process with our own. We are however working with them to make sure the updates we release are easy to install through our normal process, it's just taking longer than we expected.

Regarding the expansions/DLCs, we are also working on making these available but again as this is currently a non-exclusive release they have to take second priority and fit in between our production work on our exclusive releases like Conflict of Heroes, Decisive Campaigns Case Blue and Panzer Corps Afrika Korps.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Redmarkus5)

Post #: 11

RE: A Good Old Whinge - 7/6/2012 10:34:56 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Old Gamer 66
Distant World Legends: release date 23 Nov 2011. Nearly 8 Months since release, no patch.

That's incorrect. It was updated almost immediately after release in December and has had a series of improving public beta updates since then, I think seven or eight?

quote:

Panzer Command Ostfront: release date 12 May 2011. Nearly 15 Months and a patch may be close.

In public beta and available for quite a while, but has not yet gone official (it will next week).

quote:

Yes these games have beta patches, but for a casual weekender game player such as my self this is irrelevant.

The public beta updates use the same installer as our normal updates and are saved game compatible. I understand your reluctance to try them though and having understood that I better understand your point of view. I'll try to increase the frequency of official updates and rely less on the public beta process.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to TableTop66)

Post #: 12

RE: A Good Old Whinge - 7/6/2012 10:38:41 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GBS
In this case anyone reading this forum and thinking of buying APOS should NOT purchase it from Martix. I don't mind saying that here because I have spent plenty of $ with Matrix over the years. Gamersgate is definitely the way to go.
I agree with **budd**, something aint right. I'm a big Panther games fan and i really wish Arjuna could publish his games himself.
As for WiTE, I still enjoy it and will purchase the next game as well. Perhaps I'm not sophisticated enough to know better.

If you purchase APOS elsewhere, you will have access to exactly the same update from Graviteam that is already accessible for Matrix Games customers, but you will not have a point of contact other than Graviteam and you will not have access to the more straightforward updates once we get that process down. If you purchase APOS from us, you are effectively making it more likely that we will be able to do more with Graviteam and the AP series i nthe future.

You're not unsophisticated - WITE is fine, very well supported and an outstanding game. With all due respect to the other posters, it is anything but an unfinished title that was shoveled out there. It does have bugs and I respect their opinions, but for those who have not personally played WITE please do not take any forum post as gospel.

Regards,

- Erik

< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 7/6/2012 11:25:21 PM >

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to GBS)

Post #: 13

RE: A Good Old Whinge - 7/7/2012 12:14:10 AM

Shadrach

Posts: 727
Joined: 10/16/2001
From: Oslo, Norway
Status: offline

Matrix did a Great Thing(TM) when they took up publishing for Graviteam, and will hopefully bring them out of relative obscurity

. I am truly hoping things can improve over time, when the DLCs are ready to be sold on the Matrix site, and the patching process is a bit more organized.

And sure, Andrey is very helpful at the Graviteam site, but they are a small team. Added to that, there certainly is a *serious* language barrier, that not only gets in the way of users getting proper support, but I would reckon also causes problems in the relations between developer and publisher.

I understand Graviteam wants to prioritize their Russian-speaking audience, which is understandable as that's where their main focus has been, but the time they take to actually release a version for the rest of us is just too much. I think it took about a year from the first version of APOS was released until it came out elsewhere. Hopefully this is something Matrix can help out with, getting them some proper translation and technical writing help. It is seriously needed.

Back to the patching, it isn't really that complicated once you've done it a few times, and the Updater tool is a good tool for managing both patches, DLCs, and mods. But the process needs to be a lot more streamlined and explained in simpler terms. For instance, they have a tendency to use free file hosting sites for patches and engine updates, this is a *big* no-no, a serious dev cannot put one of their files on those sites, especially if it's a .ru domain. Let's be honest, those sites do not have the best reputation...

Fingers crossed you guys can get a good cooperation going and make lots of $$$ both of you

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 14

RE: A Good Old Whinge - 7/7/2012 1:38:31 AM

Sgt.Fury25

Posts: 141
Joined: 1/11/2008
Status: offline

Thank you Erik for your response,know ing its being worked on is good news ,Ill zip my lip and wait again thanks.

(in reply to TableTop66)

Post #: 15

RE: A Good Old Whinge - 7/7/2012 3:55:39 AM

budd

Posts: 2972
Joined: 7/4/2009
From: Tacoma
Status: offline

thx for the reply Erik,

I think all people want is some info and to stay in the loop on products they bought. Looking forward to the PCO patch.

_____________________________

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Post #: 16

RE: A Good Old Whinge - 7/7/2012 8:23:10 AM

TableTop66

Posts: 36
Joined: 6/11/2011
Status: offline

HI Erik thank you so much for replying I,m sorry it took a whinge and rant post to cause you to come to

defense on some of the matters discussed here, it's not the type of thing I enjoy doing but as you

can see I was not alone in the feelings I had Regarding Patches and updates.

Erik as Budd and others have stated all we want is some info from time to time on patches and developments

regarding our games especially if there are delays or negations going on with other developers.

A sticky thread in each game forum would be nice where you could keep us in the loop regarding these matters.

You would not have to update every week ( To time consuming) but once every 1-2 months would be nice.

Now that we know what is going on with APOS I think we are all feeling a bit more confident with our

purchase and the future of the game.

If you and GRAVITEAM are working together well and the partnership goes how you want it to then

I'm sure that most of us will willingly buy the addons later.

I own six computer games and four of them are by Matrix Games which says that you must be doing something

right, it's just the public relations side of things has been down lately.

As regards the statement I made about no patch for Distant World Legends I stand corrected and

Apologize for this, I overlooked that one as I guess I have been waiting for the big one.

Once again thank you for letting us know what is happening

Regards

Jimbo

(in reply to budd)

Post #: 17

RE: A Good Old Whinge - 7/7/2012 1:28:44 PM

mbar

Posts: 492
Joined: 3/17/2010
Status: offline

Thanks Old Gamer 66 for starting this dialog. Don't feel bad. I like to stay positive too but I have to admit I felt much better just getting what I had to say off my chest. I'm glad Erik was able to respond in detail about many of the points you brought up.

I like the idea of a stickyed and locked update thread. I would like it locked so that it's strictly news and updates about the game. Even posts like "I know we said this month but stuff happened. We are still working to make it happen." are worth the time. One of the reasons I purchase at Matrix Games is because of the community between the staff, developers and customers.

(in reply to TableTop66)

Post #: 18

RE: A Good Old Whinge - 7/7/2012 2:26:16 PM

wodin

Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4
Here we have a real gem of a game that only needs a bit of investment from the 'publisher' (do they do anything more than just host the files and stick a message on their website?) A decent publisher would have ensured that:

1. The game documentation and UI were revised to meet market expectations.
2. Patches were available in a timely fashion. (It turns out that Matrix didn't even know a patch was out!)
3. Expansions/DLC content were for sale on their site. (Dumb to fail on this point - what does it cost to host an expansion for a game you have already marketed?)
4. Visits are made to the Forum whenever there are new messages and some kind of half decent conversation with your customersis maintained.

How to run a software publishing business 1.01.

I think some clarification is needed on this. Had Graviteam signed on with us exclusively, making us their sole publisher, that is exactly what we would have done. Frankly, we are hoping that will happen in the future. In the meantime, we are working with them as a distributor and trying to build a publisher-developer relationship. For that reason, we were not able to make the documentation and UI improvements we would normally have done, nor replace the existing patch process with our own. We are however working with them to make sure the updates we release are easy to install through our normal process, it's just taking longer than we expected.

Regarding the expansions/DLCs, we are also working on making these available but again as this is currently a non-exclusive release they have to take second priority and fit in between our production work on our exclusive releases like Conflict of Heroes, Decisive Campaigns Case Blue and Panzer Corps Afrika Korps.

Regards,

- Erik

As I said before on here exclusivity is a world away from being a distributer. Matrix\Slihterine have to give more time over to exclusive games where they also are involved in varying degrees with the content which isn't the case when they are a distributer. It's really quite obvious it is this way. Matrix should do their best that patches come out for the games they distribute but here we have an odd case. We have it where many don't like graviteams patch process so Matrix are willing to do some work to change that, this really is of no real benefit to them, they didn't have to do this, thats why it's taking awhile I expect. Also look at Strat First it turns out we may never see any updates from DLC release dover there. So things aren't to bad here.

Anyway as I said before and like Erik has said you can't compare exclusive products and content improvement etc with games where Matrix are ONLY a selling point no more no less. I think small first time developers want or need the extra help from Matrix so sign up as exclusive, where other more known developers just want a distribution, as there are pros and cons going either way and it's unlikely they'd sign exclusive if they felt they didn't need their help.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 19