Rule Clarification please! or it this a bug!

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Rule Clarification please! or it this a bug!

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Conflict of Heroes Series >> Rule Clarification please! or it this a bug!

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Rule Clarification please! or it this a bug! - 7/16/2012 1:44:43 AM

JFalk68

Posts: 223
Joined: 11/5/2007
Status: offline

I am in the COH tournament at the Wargammer and I had my 1st match of the 2nd round tonight against Jamm.

It was a hard fought game played well by both sides. I was playing the Germans and Jamm as the Soviets. I had managed to take the objective in turn 4 as the Germans.

At the start of round 5, I was winning 7-5 and still have control of the objective with a German Iron cross indicating so.

I also had 4 LMG's units able to fire...3 grouped fire and 1 solo in the woods to the south watching my German rifle unit in the stone house

Jamm managed to damage my rifle unit during turn 5, he also then moved a damaged Soviet unit into the stone house but could not doing anything more. He then moved a 2nd unit into the house but again was out of AP's with that unit because he was moved from several hexes away. He ends his turn there. The score shows me winning 7-5.

During this whole time the German Iron cross stayed, it never changed to a Soviet Star over the objective.

I was still able to fire my LMG's but I did not because it 1.) showed an Iron Cross there was no need since it showed as German control 2.) I could have fired and tried to take out the 2 Soviet units but it was a gamble because I had a unit there also. I was winning 7-5 so why fire if I have a German cross and maybe take out my unit and not hit his at all.

My grouped LMG's had a high probability of taking out all of the units or at least damaging them, the solo LMG also had a good chance.

So I pass and the game ends turn 5.

Victory screen flashes RED! The score is 9-7 in favor of Jamm and shows him in control of the Obj the last turn!

What is up with that? I looked all over the PDF manual and could not find anything about sercuring victory objectives.

Jamm speculated that perhaps it was because he has superiority on the hex, well if that's the case should not the hex turn to a Soviet Star the moment that happens? If I would have known you bet damn well those LMG's would have been blazing away at that hex.

My understanding was that control of a hex switched when you removed the previous owners unit(s), then you take control. This needs to be clearly fixed because if Jamm is correct in his assumption then there should be some indication immediatley when ownership switches.

Thanks

Post #: 1

RE: Rule Clarification please! or it this a bug! - 7/16/2012 1:54:40 AM

junk2drive

Posts: 12907
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline

I too have been confused about VL ownership.

And a few other things. I played a game yesterday and my opponent seemed to take two shots without a lose turn card. I hindsight I think I had two units in the hex but one of these had the same unit shown in the text, first a miss and then a hit. EDIT I think this was group fire

I dislike the random cards and units. Sitting around a table with friends and someone draws a good card is one thing. But playing an online game then switching sides only to get crappy cards both times is not fun.

< Message edited by junk2drive -- 7/16/2012 3:47:48 AM >

(in reply to JFalk68)

Post #: 2

RE: Rule Clarification please! or it this a bug! - 7/16/2012 2:26:57 AM

Jamm

Posts: 407
Joined: 10/2/2009
Status: offline

Also, the German and Russian squads initially in house were broken.
The second Russian squad that moved in was not damaged.
I also suspected this might have triggered control. Either way close combat and victory point control should be explained in more detail.
Neither of us thought about this.
And JFalk would've had nothing to lose by firing into the house.

Overall a good game and looking forward to the next one.

_____________________________

When the going gets weird,... the weird turn pro
Hunter S Thompson

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Jamm-works/669418463128598?ref=bookmarks

(in reply to junk2drive)

Post #: 3

RE: Rule Clarification please! or it this a bug! - 7/16/2012 2:45:20 AM

JFalk68

Posts: 223
Joined: 11/5/2007
Status: offline

I had to look up the rules for the official game since the PC PDF version is not as detailed. This is what I found:
[color=#1b3a66 size=2][color=#1b3a66 size=2][color=#1b3a66 size=2]
2.4 Game End and Victory

Each firefight sets the game length and victory conditions and notes

special firefight rules that may overrule regular game rules. The player

with the highest victory point total at the end of the game wins. In case

of a tie, both players are losers. :) Typically, victory points are earned by

destroying opposing units or controlling victory hexes during scoring turns.

When an opposing unit is destroyed, the victory points

(VPs) are immediately awarded to a player on his yellow

VPs track. If a player destroys his own unit (yes, it can

happen), his opponent still gets the VPs associated with it.

Control markers are placed on victory hexes with

the side of the controlling army face up. A victory hex is

controlled by the last player to have had a unit solely in the

hex, which includes simply moving through it. If both opponents have units

in the same hex, it is contested and nobody controls it for VP purposes

So, it appears that if both opponents have units in the same hex, it is contested and nobody controls it for VP purposes. It just says units, it doesn't go into detail about more or less units or broken or damaged units. My take is that no VP should have been awarded at the end of the game for turn 5 according to the rules since we both had units. I would be interested in hearing an official response on this considering it is in tournament play. If no points where awarded it would have stayed 7-5 my favor...

Anyhow, its only a 2 point game at this point so I better win next time by at least 3.

(in reply to Jamm)

Post #: 4

RE: Rule Clarification please! or it this a bug! - 7/16/2012 3:46:24 AM

junk2drive

Posts: 12907
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline

I just finished my games with Joram. I moved a squad and a damaged squad into the house where he had a damaged squad. The VP stayed Russian. He had a squad next to the VP and fired at my units and his. It destroyed the damaged squad and missed the other and his. Then the VP flipped to German.

(in reply to JFalk68)

Post #: 5

RE: Rule Clarification please! or it this a bug! - 7/16/2012 4:14:25 AM

JFalk68

Posts: 223
Joined: 11/5/2007
Status: offline

So your saying that you where the Germans and at the end of fighting you both had 1 undamaged unit in the victory objective and it switched to Germans from the original Soviet?

quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

I just finished my games with Joram. I moved a squad and a damaged squad into the house where he had a damaged squad. The VP stayed Russian. He had a squad next to the VP and fired at my units and his. It destroyed the damaged squad and missed the other and his. Then the VP flipped to German.

(in reply to junk2drive)

Post #: 6

RE: Rule Clarification please! or it this a bug! - 7/16/2012 4:20:06 AM

junk2drive

Posts: 12907
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline

Correct

(in reply to JFalk68)

Post #: 7

RE: Rule Clarification please! or it this a bug! - 7/16/2012 4:35:16 AM

JFalk68

Posts: 223
Joined: 11/5/2007
Status: offline

If this was just a normal head to head game I wouldn't mind so much, I would just chalk it up to a bug that needs to be worked out. Since there is a tournament going on I don't feel like really participating much now :( From what I am reading it should have been contested and no VP should have been given to my opponent. Our match took 1hr 15 mins to complete too...

(in reply to junk2drive)

Post #: 8

RE: Rule Clarification please! or it this a bug! - 7/20/2012 1:56:03 AM

junk2drive

Posts: 12907
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline

From the second edition board game rules

quote:

2.5.2 Victory Hex Control
The victory hex(es) specified in a firefight are marked
at the beginning of a game with Control Markers, which
are placed with the controlling side�s symbol face up.
During the course of the game, victory hex control is
maintained by one side until an opposing ground unit
enters and solely occupies the hex, even if the unit
simply passes through the hex. If an opposing unit enters an enemy
occupied victory hex, control is retained by the enemy until the
opposing side becomes the sole occupier of the victory hex.

(in reply to JFalk68)

Post #: 9

RE: Rule Clarification please! or it this a bug! - 7/20/2012 2:19:23 AM

JFalk68

Posts: 223
Joined: 11/5/2007
Status: offline

Thanks junk2drive, looks like I should have retained control then, and won my 1st game 11-5 instead of losing 7-9. Jamm clean my clock the 2nd game however, so as far as points go I would have been out of the tournament anyways.

The code for determining ownership needs to get looked at, maybe this thread should be moved to the Bug forum.

quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

From the second edition board game rules

quote:

2.5.2 Victory Hex Control
The victory hex(es) specified in a firefight are marked
at the beginning of a game with Control Markers, which
are placed with the controlling side�s symbol face up.
During the course of the game, victory hex control is
maintained by one side until an opposing ground unit
enters and solely occupies the hex, even if the unit
simply passes through the hex. If an opposing unit enters an enemy
occupied victory hex, control is retained by the enemy until the
opposing side becomes the sole occupier of the victory hex.

(in reply to junk2drive)

Post #: 10

RE: Rule Clarification please! or it this a bug! - 7/20/2012 2:37:49 AM

Jamm

Posts: 407
Joined: 10/2/2009
Status: offline

I ran a test on this the other day and it is numerical superiority.
Broken or unbroken units didn't matter.
Once a side had more units in the victory hex, the ownership changed hands and the markers changed.
This should have been in the rulebook somewhere as it became important in our first match.

Enjoyable games Falk, drop me a line for another game sometime.

_____________________________

When the going gets weird,... the weird turn pro
Hunter S Thompson

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Jamm-works/669418463128598?ref=bookmarks

(in reply to JFalk68)

Post #: 11

RE: Rule Clarification please! or it this a bug! - 7/20/2012 2:49:04 AM

junk2drive

Posts: 12907
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline

At least JFalk got more combined points than I did

Looks like if the Soviet player loses the Maxim in phase/pulse/turn one, he has lost the game.

(in reply to Jamm)

Post #: 12

RE: Rule Clarification please! or it this a bug! - 7/20/2012 4:00:22 AM

JFalk68

Posts: 223
Joined: 11/5/2007
Status: offline

Thanks Jamm, the rule interpretation for the PC version should follow the boardgame version. I don't like have 2 sets of rules for supposedly the same game.

You played a great game, I will try to get back into COH but at the moment the Post Office has me working 6 days a week, 9-10 hours a day and I am exhausted lol. You should join the Facebook page for Conflict of Heroes, I am the admin for it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jamm

I ran a test on this the other day and it is numerical superiority.
Broken or unbroken units didn't matter.
Once a side had more units in the victory hex, the ownership changed hands and the markers changed.
This should have been in the rulebook somewhere as it became important in our first match.

Enjoyable games Falk, drop me a line for another game sometime.

(in reply to Jamm)

Post #: 13