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Barrage baloons - 11/23/2010 7:15:20 PM   
Hotschi


Posts: 548
Joined: 1/18/2010
From: Austria
Status: offline 		March 1944, I am bombing Truk since ages, rendering it useless for the Japanese. Currently I am flying airfield, ground, port as well as city (mining) attacks with Liberators at 5,000 feet.

March 9, about a dozen B-24's were damaged by barrage balloons. Fine with me, seems I have to change to a higher altitude then.

And here's the questions;

a) What conditions must be met for a base to set up barrage baloons - is it a question of supply, base size, units and/or fortress present?
b) At which altitudes do they hang around, or better, what's the maximum ceiling of a barrage baloon?
c) How to destroy them other than flying straight into one?
Post #: 1
RE: Barrage baloons - 11/23/2010 7:38:25 PM   
Schanilec

 

Posts: 4040
Joined: 6/12/2010
From: Grand Forks, ND
Status: offline 		I wonder if a fighter sweep would destroy barrage balloons?

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Post #: 2
RE: Barrage baloons - 11/23/2010 8:11:21 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline 		Balloons are part of the defenses for bases with a combined port and airfield size over a certain number.  I think it is around 6, but I can't remember.  They cannot be destroyed, but are easily avoided if you have your bombers fly at 7k feet or higher.  Balloons can only reach up to 6k feet. 

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RE: Barrage baloons - 11/23/2010 8:12:05 PM   
Hotschi


Posts: 548
Joined: 1/18/2010
From: Austria
Status: offline 		Worth a try.

Ponape (10 hexes away) is already controlled by the Allies, but there's no airgroup there yet - need to ship a Corsair squadron there, which has adequate range. I also got 2 carrier Task Forces nearby enroute to Woleai, thinking of diverting them to make a sweep and see.

It's not the case that I badly need to destroy them baloons (Truk is 100 percent airfield and port damaged) it's just a matter of interest.

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Post #: 4
RE: Barrage baloons - 11/23/2010 8:15:24 PM   
Hotschi


Posts: 548
Joined: 1/18/2010
From: Austria
Status: offline 		Ooops, hit the reply button before you now posted, which answers my question.

Actually my plan, before starting to post this thread, was to simply bomb at a higher altitude, increasing in 1,000 ft steps.

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Post #: 5
RE: Barrage baloons - 11/23/2010 9:59:22 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		This Thread:  http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2206908&mpage=1&key=� has information from one of the programming types about the baloon's appearance.

One of my very early addition to counter low level attacks.

The Balloon effect is determined by maximum value of (a) plus (b) below. The overall maximum of the sum is 9.
(a) Balloons are present in a base if the AF + port > 6. The value is the fort level of the hex.
(b) Balloons can be added to a base/LCU by creating a device of type BALLOON. The value is the number of devices. [not currently in use]

They affect aircraft flying below 6000'.

Twin-engine or higher planes increase the number of balloons by 4.

Balloon level is not reported but is usually the fort level if the combined value of the base is >6.
Pilot experience should help to avoid balloons (except for the bug I just found which is not always using the right pilot!!!)

< Message edited by michaelm -- 4/6/2010 4:09:22 AM >

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RE: Barrage baloons - 11/24/2010 8:16:43 AM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America

Balloons are part of the defenses for bases with a combined port and airfield size over a certain number.  I think it is around 6, but I can't remember.  They cannot be destroyed, but are easily avoided if you have your bombers fly at 7k feet or higher.  Balloons can only reach up to 6k feet. 




IIRC there are ones that reach up to 6000ft and others to 8000ft? One of the devs posted it but I can´t remember it exactly nor the exact conditions to have them. If I meet balloons somewhere I go up to 10000ft, never encountered them at that height and you should also avoid any light flak.

edit: chickenboy posted the thread I´ve meant. I can say that this:

They affect aircraft flying below 6000'.

isn´t correct though because I never use my USAAF heavies BELOW 6000ft and I just recently had an attack when I lost no less than 7! B-24 to balloons and the bombers were all AT 6000ft.


< Message edited by castor troy -- 11/24/2010 8:19:54 AM >

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Post #: 7
RE: Barrage baloons - 11/24/2010 11:33:42 AM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		Your correct it should have read at or below 6000'.

6000 feet is mystical number in WITP and AE.


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Michael

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Post #: 8
RE: Barrage baloons - 7/29/2012 2:36:21 PM   
peacemaker1945

 

Posts: 22
Joined: 5/27/2010
Status: offline 		Just a few turns ago bombed a base with balloon defense presented, made quick search and found this thread. Regarding a post by Chickenboy, as now it is not possible to add balloons as device to LCUs, does it mean that only cumulative size of port+airfield will affect number of balloons deployed for defense?

Would be glad if someone instruct me on this matter. Thank you in advance.

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Post #: 9
RE: Barrage baloons - 7/29/2012 10:26:40 PM   
Empire101


Posts: 1950
Joined: 5/20/2008
From: Coruscant
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America

Balloons are part of the defenses for bases with a combined port and airfield size over a certain number.  I think it is around 6, but I can't remember.  They cannot be destroyed, but are easily avoided if you have your bombers fly at 7k feet or higher.  Balloons can only reach up to 6k feet. 


I did not know that!! Thanks USS Amerika!!


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but being bored is greatly preferable to being prematurely dead because of some ideological fantasy. - Michael Burleigh


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Post #: 10
RE: Barrage baloons - 7/30/2012 8:41:16 AM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Schanilec

I wonder if a fighter sweep would destroy barrage balloons?



nope

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Post #: 11
RE: Barrage baloons - 7/30/2012 4:47:07 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		I almost always bomb at 7k unless there is super heavy flak and can't remember ever seeing a balloon. (Not saying it has not happened) Remember, if you are using a 4E or non attack type medium at 6k or below then you are only getting half a bomb load. So why do it?

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Post #: 12
RE: Barrage baloons - 7/30/2012 4:58:36 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

This Thread:  http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2206908&mpage=1&key=� has information from one of the programming types about the baloon's appearance.

One of my very early addition to counter low level attacks.

The Balloon effect is determined by maximum value of (a) plus (b) below. The overall maximum of the sum is 9.
(a) Balloons are present in a base if the AF + port > 6. The value is the fort level of the hex.

(b) Balloons can be added to a base/LCU by creating a device of type BALLOON. The value is the number of devices. [not currently in use]

They affect aircraft flying below 6000'.

Twin-engine or higher planes increase the number of balloons by 4.

Balloon level is not reported but is usually the fort level if the combined value of the base is >6.
Pilot experience should help to avoid balloons (except for the bug I just found which is not always using the right pilot!!!)

< Message edited by michaelm -- 4/6/2010 4:09:22 AM >


Michael,

I'm curious about what I put in bold above, in particular the piece I made larger. Is the possibility of Barrage Balloons in the scenario file (as a device at the base) implemented in code, but no scenario was using it? Or not even implemented in code?

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Post #: 13
RE: Barrage baloons - 7/30/2012 5:12:33 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline 		I have to ask as historical question here, as I've seen the photos of these things about London, etc. Where they really effective in WWII????

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Post #: 14
RE: Barrage baloons - 7/30/2012 5:14:20 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		No.

But they gave some lift to civilian morale.

Alfred

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Post #: 15
RE: Barrage baloons - 7/30/2012 5:16:41 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

This Thread:  http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2206908&mpage=1&key=� has information from one of the programming types about the baloon's appearance.

One of my very early addition to counter low level attacks.

The Balloon effect is determined by maximum value of (a) plus (b) below. The overall maximum of the sum is 9.
(a) Balloons are present in a base if the AF + port > 6. The value is the fort level of the hex.

(b) Balloons can be added to a base/LCU by creating a device of type BALLOON. The value is the number of devices. [not currently in use]

They affect aircraft flying below 6000'.

Twin-engine or higher planes increase the number of balloons by 4.

Balloon level is not reported but is usually the fort level if the combined value of the base is >6.
Pilot experience should help to avoid balloons (except for the bug I just found which is not always using the right pilot!!!)

< Message edited by michaelm -- 4/6/2010 4:09:22 AM >


Michael,

I'm curious about what I put in bold above, in particular the piece I made larger. Is the possibility of Barrage Balloons in the scenario file (as a device at the base) implemented in code, but no scenario was using it? Or not even implemented in code?


Obviously I can't answer for michaelm but my understanding is that no scenario designer has included the balloon device. The option is however there for an "enterprising" modder.

Alfred

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 16
RE: Barrage baloons - 7/30/2012 5:18:22 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

No.

But they gave some lift to civilian morale.

Alfred

Is that a play on words Alfred? I didn't know you had it in you!

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Post #: 17
RE: Barrage baloons - 7/30/2012 8:20:55 PM   
Mac Linehan

 

Posts: 1484
Joined: 12/19/2004
From: Denver Colorado
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

No.

But they gave some lift to civilian morale.

Alfred

Is that a play on words Alfred? I didn't know you had it in you!


Yes, He does... <grin>

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LAV-25 2147

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Post #: 18
RE: Barrage baloons - 7/31/2012 2:25:22 PM   
tanjman


Posts: 717
Joined: 1/26/2002
From: Griffin, GA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

This Thread:  http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2206908&mpage=1&key=� has information from one of the programming types about the baloon's appearance.

One of my very early addition to counter low level attacks.

The Balloon effect is determined by maximum value of (a) plus (b) below. The overall maximum of the sum is 9.
(a) Balloons are present in a base if the AF + port > 6. The value is the fort level of the hex.

(b) Balloons can be added to a base/LCU by creating a device of type BALLOON. The value is the number of devices. [not currently in use]

They affect aircraft flying below 6000'.

Twin-engine or higher planes increase the number of balloons by 4.

Balloon level is not reported but is usually the fort level if the combined value of the base is >6.
Pilot experience should help to avoid balloons (except for the bug I just found which is not always using the right pilot!!!)

< Message edited by michaelm -- 4/6/2010 4:09:22 AM >


Michael,

I'm curious about what I put in bold above, in particular the piece I made larger. Is the possibility of Barrage Balloons in the scenario file (as a device at the base) implemented in code, but no scenario was using it? Or not even implemented in code?


Obviously I can't answer for michaelm but my understanding is that no scenario designer has included the balloon device. The option is however there for an "enterprising" modder.

Alfred


The following are the Barrage Balloon device stats from UV.

Range = 0
Accuracy = 0
Penetration = 0
Effect = 1
Ceiling = 4,000
Anti-Soft = 0
Anti-Armor = 0
Load Cost = 16

I don't know if these stats will work in WitP AE.

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Post #: 19
RE: Barrage baloons - 7/31/2012 5:38:11 PM   
ALF1


Posts: 45
Joined: 5/10/2011
From: Czech republic
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

Your correct it should have read at or below 6000'.

6000 feet is mystical number in WITP and AE.



Michaelm can you please confirm that this is true:

(a) Balloons are present in a base if the AF + port > 6. The value is the fort level of the hex.

I read somewhere that already from combined size 6 baloons appeared. Or is really as written from size 7 ?

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Post #: 20
RE: Barrage baloons - 7/31/2012 7:45:40 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

I have to ask as historical question here, as I've seen the photos of these things about London, etc. Where they really effective in WWII????


They would of course be a danger to any aircraft flying a low level mission, especially at night. However, most missions probably did not fly low enough to make them effective.

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Post #: 21
RE: Barrage baloons - 11/6/2018 12:56:13 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		I created both static and mobile barrage balloons a couple of years ago. I am quite pleased with their effects.
The static kind gives the mod maker control of where and when they appear, and how many. The mobile kind permits
PLAYERS to control where they go. For example, there were six USMC mobile barrage balloon battalions.

For some reason, the cables for barrage balloons are typically 5029 feet (which seems very odd). But this does mean
the game type altitude of 6000 feet is remarkably close.

My barrage balloons are anti-aircraft guns. US Army and USMC barrage balloon battalions have 45 of these devices.
They also have 3 aircraft observers and 6 machine guns. The mobile kind gets mobile support squads, the static kind
get normal support squads. Static barrage balloon units are usually added to a static base force to save slots.

My first try for values worked well: accuracy = 2, effect = 5,Penetration = 50, Load Cost = 15 for mobile, 9999 for
static. A few should be added every turn as replacement devices - I used 5.

< Message edited by el cid again -- 11/6/2018 12:57:48 AM >

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Post #: 22
RE: Barrage baloons - 11/6/2018 7:53:00 AM   
PetrOs

 

Posts: 260
Joined: 11/11/2006
Status: offline 		Actually Balloons were also dangerous for friendly aircraft, in fact in England many more friendlies crashed in them then enemies, if to trust http://www.bbrclub.org/Barrage%20Balloon%20Cable%20Collisions%20with%20Aircraft%20in%20WWII.htm

According to that site, in UK 310 friendly planes hit the cables compared to 54 hostile and 10 unknowns. That caused 91 friendly crashes and 38 friendly forced landings, while 172 friendlies made it back home to land normally with light damage. Only 25 hostile planes crashed and 1 forced landing, with the rest able to fly afterwards.

However it was a real scare for german pilots to encounter balloons, as cables were not visible. On the other hand, when german planes were not able to find their main target, they looked for balloons, and discharged there - there ought to be something important if they protect it by balloons.

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 23
RE: Barrage baloons - 1/5/2021 11:48:22 AM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

This Thread:  http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2206908&mpage=1&key=� has information from one of the programming types about the baloon's appearance.

One of my very early addition to counter low level attacks.

The Balloon effect is determined by maximum value of (a) plus (b) below. The overall maximum of the sum is 9.
(a) Balloons are present in a base if the AF + port > 6. The value is the fort level of the hex.
(b) Balloons can be added to a base/LCU by creating a device of type BALLOON. The value is the number of devices. [not currently in use]

They affect aircraft flying below 6000'.

Twin-engine or higher planes increase the number of balloons by 4.

Balloon level is not reported but is usually the fort level if the combined value of the base is >6.
Pilot experience should help to avoid balloons (except for the bug I just found which is not always using the right pilot!!!)

< Message edited by michaelm -- 4/6/2010 4:09:22 AM >



The generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek needs to know whether he gets the barrage baloons, if he develops the Chungking airfield to level 7. Chungking has no port to develop.


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Post #: 24
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