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OS wars, who's moving on, and who's staying behind?

 
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OS wars, who's moving on, and who's staying behind? - 12/8/2002 11:54:23 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		OS wars, by that I mean who has made the choice to let it go move forward and accept that it isn't 94, 95, 98 or 2000 any more.

By that I mean, no I am not spending the effort to employ Windows 3.1.
I have said good bye to Win 95, 98 and 2000/ME.

I use XP. Its both stable and it runs correctly. Its not god's gift to computers, it merely does what it was supposed to do when installed.

I have a number of games that won't run if not installed from a 3.5 drive. I have a 3.5 drive but it's not quite running correctly, and I am not wasting money getting a new one (any more than I intend to fix a vcr).

I used 95 and it looked nice compared with 3.1. But it's yesterdays news in so many ways.
98 is just an inflated 95.
2000 and ME I wouldn't know what makes them what they are, never used them, and not expecting to either.

I have beloved games that just don't like XP. Life's like that. I am gritting my teeth and having them replaced with new games that do.

But the question is, how many of the community are planning on staying behind with the rubbish?

I only ask, because the answers to the question might interest at least someone.

Is there any point I say, to game designers making wargames that won't run on old platforms if enough grognards won't move ahead?

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Post #: 1
- 12/9/2002 12:01:45 AM   
Kraut


Posts: 2551
Joined: 8/13/2002
From: Germany
Status: offline 		I use Win98 SE, good enough for me.

If Microsoft continues too be obnoxious about Digital Rights Management and the Palladiummy chip, the OS of my next PC is going to be Linux.

Of course, there are plans to outlaw Open Source software in America. That may sound preposterous, but it actually might happen once "Trustworthy Computing" becomes mandatory.

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 2
- 12/9/2002 12:10:57 AM   
CCB


Posts: 4208
Joined: 3/21/2002
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kraut
[B]I use Win98 SE, good enough for me.[/B][/QUOTE]

Me too! :D It still plays all my games (SSI, Talonsoft, Atomic/Microsoft) and I'm in no rush whatsoever to upgrade or even get a new computer. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. ;)

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in den vereinigten staaten hergestellt

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Post #: 3
Re: OS wars, who's moving on, and who's staying behind? - 12/9/2002 12:18:27 AM   
Culiacan Mexico

 

Posts: 8348
Joined: 11/10/2000
From: Bad Windsheim Germany
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]But the question is, how many of the community are planning on staying behind with the rubbish? [/B][/QUOTE]Old rubbish or new rubbish, what a choice. I went for new rubbish (XP). ;)

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Post #: 4
Re: OS wars, who's moving on, and who's staying behind? - 12/9/2002 12:25:47 AM   
Brigz


Posts: 1162
Joined: 1/20/2002
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]

98 is just an inflated 95.

I have beloved games that just don't like XP. Life's like that. I am gritting my teeth and having them replaced with new games that do.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Sorry Les, but your experience with other OS's must have something to do with you computer config instead of the software. I'm using a computer that is almost three years old and I use Win98SE and it works great.

Win 98 is not just an inflated 95. Win98 will run games on my computer that Win95 will not and very few old games don't run on Win98. There are no games that have come out in the last three years that don't run perfectly on my system with Win98SE. Remember the key here is Win98 "SE" as in second edition.

So how can you say Win 98 isn't any good if it will run programs on my computer that XP won't run on yours? And every program that runs on your computer with XP will run on mine with 98SE.

Again, it's not the OS, Les, it's how you have your computer is set up. The key I believe is to have enough ram (I have 380megs), at least 16Megs on your video card (32megs on mine) and don't run a lot of teminate and stay programs (programs running in the background).

I'm sure when I upgrade to a new computer in the next year or so, I will upgrade to a newer version or Windows, but I'm staying with 98SE for now because it does everything for me and more, apparently, than XP does for you.

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Post #: 5
- 12/9/2002 1:17:03 AM   
slickric

 

Posts: 51
Joined: 12/5/2002
From: Miami
Status: offline 		Windows 95/98/ME ran just outside the ok mark as far as I am concerned. As much as I did on the net and the gaming i did with those OS's I would have to reboot once a day if not more. My all time favorite OS is Windows 2000 but I also like XP which comes in a close second. With Win 2000/XP I have gone more than a month with out restarting. I do need to get a fifth PC just to run Windows 95/98/ME for all the games i have a love that wont run on 2000/XP.

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Post #: 6
- 12/9/2002 1:19:21 AM   
slickric

 

Posts: 51
Joined: 12/5/2002
From: Miami
Status: offline 		Oh and if you’re wondering why I have 4 PC's its because I do video editing, anime fan subbing and lay tracks (audio tracks) and one PC just for my gaming needs.

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Post #: 7
- 12/9/2002 1:19:36 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Kraut can you expand on your comments, I am interested.

I have not yet heard anything concerning "open source" restrictions or the phrase "Trustworthy Computing".

_____________________________

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Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

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Post #: 8
- 12/9/2002 1:32:41 AM   
Kraut


Posts: 2551
Joined: 8/13/2002
From: Germany
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]Kraut can you expand on your comments, I am interested.

I have not yet heard anything concerning "open source" restrictions or the phrase "Trustworthy Computing". [/B][/QUOTE]

This is a pretty good article for starters:

"Under Palladium as I understand it, the Internet goes from being ours to being theirs. The very data on your hard drive ceases to be yours because it could self-destruct at any time. We'll end up paying rent to use our own data!

Can you tell I think this is a bad idea?

What bothers me the most about it is not just that we are being sold a bill of goods by the very outfit responsible for making possible most current Internet security problems. "The world is a fearful place (because we allowed it to be by introducing vulnerable designs followed by clueless security initiatives) so let us fix it for you." Yeah, right. Yet Palladium has a very real chance of succeeding.

How long until only code signed by Microsoft will be allowed to run on the platform? It seems that Microsoft is trying to implement a system that will enable them, once and for all, to charge game console-like royalties to software developers".

http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20020627.html


There's another one:

Who trusts Microsoft's Palladium? Not me

By Matt Loney
ZDNet (UK)
June 27, 2002, 4:45 AM PT

COMMENTARY--The words 'Microsoft' and 'trust' only really seem to fit together with the help of an 'anti' somewhere in the middle. I find it somewhat odd therefore, to find this particular company proposing the development of a 'trusted computer platform'.

Trusted by whom? Not by me, that's for sure:

http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1107-939817.html


From the Electronic Privacy Information Cemter:

Microsoft Palladium
Introduction | News Items

Introduction
In June 2002, Microsoft released information regarding its new "Palladium" initiative. Palladium is a system that combines software and hardware controls to create a "trusted" computing platform. In doing so, it would establish an unprecedented level of control over users and their computers.

Palladium could place Microsoft as the gatekeeper of identification and authentication. Additionally, systems embedded in both software and hardware would control access to content, thereby creating ubiquitous Digital Rights Management schemes that can track users and control use of media. Microsoft expects to have elements of the system in place by 2004.

Professor Ross Anderson has written an extensive FAQ on the Palladium system. Seth Schoen of EFF has published a detailed summary of a meeting about Palladium:

http://www.epic.org/privacy/consumer/microsoft/palladium.html

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 9
- 12/9/2002 1:35:39 AM   
Kraut


Posts: 2551
Joined: 8/13/2002
From: Germany
Status: offline 		In the worst case it would mean that you can only use files that are approved by Microsoft. Open Source software might bite the dust if the lobbying to make Palladium and similar schemes mandatory succeeds.

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Post #: 10
- 12/9/2002 1:46:03 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		I can see the idea behind the notion, but I can also see the hacker saying ya right, and developing ways to make all this pointless to fuss over in so many ways.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

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Post #: 11
- 12/9/2002 1:48:25 AM   
Kraut


Posts: 2551
Joined: 8/13/2002
From: Germany
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]I can see the idea behind the notion, but I can also see the hacker saying ya right, and developing ways to make all this pointless to fuss over in so many ways. [/B][/QUOTE]

It could still be a real problem. Hackers of all kinds can now be classified as terrorists, for example.

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 12
- 12/9/2002 1:57:44 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		I thought they already were.

Or at least watching news out of the states, they seem to be having all sorts of trouble determining who is and isn't dangerus.

Sure glad I am not responsible though.

But I think you will have a better chance passing laws to prevent us from looking at porn, then you will with this current round of silliness.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

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Post #: 13
- 12/9/2002 2:04:57 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		To be honest though, I have a lot of sympathy with software makers that pour a lot of energy into making a program, only to see it pirated with practically no effort.

I have no sympathy with MS, but then they have no concept of ethical business practices, so they can just go and consider their burnt bridges with someone else.

But as much as it would massively cramp a lot of my game playing (and it sure would), I have no objection to being stuck in a world where I average 1 or 2 nice new games in a year, as opposed to as many as I want to get from my buddies.

I would not cry many tears for those that would be equally shut down.
If tomorrow peer to peer file sharing didn't work, it would not ruin my life.

I was able to satisfy myself with numerous hobbies loooooong before the existence of computers.

God I am glad I own all those board games eh. And my massive library, and aaaaaaall those models.

Businesses that have brains buy all their software honestly, they won't suffer. I have seen the processes involved with "tax right offs".
Nope it's only joe gamer that stands to get a kicking around with this as it looks currently.

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I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

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Post #: 14
- 12/9/2002 4:45:09 AM   
troopie

 

Posts: 996
Joined: 4/8/2000
From: Directly above the centre of the Earth.
Status: offline 		I use Windows 98SE. As of now, I have no intention of going to XP or anything else. It does everything I want it to do, and is reliable enough. It's light years better than Win 3.1 and AUs better than Win 95. My favourite wargames wouldn't run in a dos window in Win 95. They will in Win 98.

I doubt Open Source software will be prohibited. Even Microsquish isn't that powerful.

troopie

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Post #: 15
- 12/9/2002 8:53:14 AM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		You can run a simulated win 95 or win 98 or even win 2000 on XP. As I recall you right click on the icon on desktop and go to properties to set it to run under that. I have one game that wont run with XP and I have it set to win 98 and it works fine.

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Post #: 16
- 12/9/2002 9:01:47 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Yes the XP emulate option makes some uncoperative games run, but it isn't perfect.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

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Post #: 17
- 12/9/2002 12:34:18 PM   
slickric

 

Posts: 51
Joined: 12/5/2002
From: Miami
Status: offline 		I have a question, why is Win 3.1 still being mentioned?
As far as I am concerned its dead and buried. I mean the last time I used Win 3.1 was 91!

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Post #: 18
- 12/9/2002 7:52:10 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		If I could buy a 286 (yes a 286) complete with keyboard, mouse and plain monitor I would.

I would load something like Win 3.1 on it. Win 3.1 in todays world has almost no size (I still have a set of 3.5 original discs as well as my DOS 6.22 original discs).
I would use the resident word processor instead of my electric typewriter.

A 286 is still a powerful machine if all it's going to do is type.

And typing is what I do far more than any other activity on the computer.

But to run a modern OS so that you can run modern applications, to go online etc etc, you need a larger hard drive (to hold these massive programs), a new motherboard to run those hard drives, new ram configurations (because those programs need faster ram set ups, a better video card, and this stuff requires a new case of course.

This spiral is inevitable I guess, but I don't really like all of it.

So here I sit with an 800 cerleron I couldn't have imagined having when I got Win 95 finally. I have a 40 gig drive, and at one time I thought 400 megs was all a person could fill up. I have more Ram than I thought was possible, and hmm seems I need more than 256.

The OOOOOOONLY thing I have truely accomplished by moving to Win XP is say good bye to blue screen of death.

I don't see scan disk if the system is shut down incorrectly either.
Formating my system is now simple enough I can do it myself, without having to plead with my computer guru buddy for help.
Installing new hardware is done by the computer not me.
Setting up my internet, once something I dreaded, is now something XP does for me with no input required from me.

XP won't run a few games that only 3.1 could, it won't run a few 95 only games, and it won't run a few 98 only games.
My kitchen table is 4' x 8' and it won't run Fire in the East eh. Or Pacific War. This is not to say that there is something wrong with that table, heck it's 4'x8' eh. I will take it over your dinet eh.

I guess an ideal world has a room where you have a full computer running 3.1 next to one running 95 next to one running 98SE next to one that has XP on it. I don't have that room.

If the powers that be, make owning a computer pointless due to restrictions, well hmm before I had Win 3.1 I had a table. And I was able to do virtually anything on it.

I still have that table, and I still have all the things that worked on it. I can go back with a snap of my fingers too:)

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

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Post #: 19
- 12/9/2002 11:43:28 PM   
Kanon Fodder

 

Posts: 196
Joined: 9/8/2001
From: Portland, Orrygun
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by slickric
[B]I have a question, why is Win 3.1 still being mentioned?
As far as I am concerned its dead and buried. I mean the last time I used Win 3.1 was 91! [/B][/QUOTE]

Just wondering what you used in '92, '93, '94 and the first half of '95 ?
:p

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 20
- 12/10/2002 8:00:42 AM   
Brigz


Posts: 1162
Joined: 1/20/2002
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Twotribes
[B]You can run a simulated win 95 or win 98 or even win 2000 on XP. As I recall you right click on the icon on desktop and go to properties to set it to run under that. I have one game that wont run with XP and I have it set to win 98 and it works fine. [/B][/QUOTE]

That's good to hear. I'll probably be upgrading from 98SE to XP in the next year if I do get a new computer.

_____________________________

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Post #: 21
- 12/10/2002 9:29:31 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		Posted by Les the Sarge:"Is there any point I say, to game designers making wargames that won't run on old platforms if enough grognards won't move ahead?" This is your key point, Les, but how many classic C64 wargames never made the transition to the PC platform? Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you suggesting that the only answer to the O/S problem for older software is something called universal compatibility? XP apparently has features that transfer older O/S to the new format, or at least adapt to the older ones, BUT it doesn't always work. Jeez, to my mind then, you should never discard an older PC when it can play favorite wargames that the new one won't. In that case, it's an unending cycle, and more & more of the "classics", including "SPWaW", will be outside the compatibility loop, given time. Is THAT what you're getting at?

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Post #: 22
- 12/10/2002 10:15:46 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		I guess the term for me is graphical interest thresshold.

Which might sound odd considering all the put downs I field out there about "graphics".

But there are limitations.

Back in the Commodore days, computer games meant squat to me. I have no "old favourites" per se from that time period.

During the 70's Squad Leader and Third Reich ruled. I played numerous operational games of note as well.
During the 80's I bought a number of games, but the only feature was ASL.

I moved from Toronto in 1990 and as a result spent about 4 years in a gaming hobby limbo. I was glad to get back into the swing of things, but hmmm spent much of the 90s dealing with a health hassle.

Computers to me, began on an IMB PS1. I progressed with that to a 486 and that is basically about Win 95 time. Computer wargaming to me started with Steel Panthers.
Until Steel Panthers, computer wargames were just a desperate persons choice. If it didn't look as good as ASL, or play as well as A3R, it was not worth my time. And as I had real live opponents, I sure was in no need to fuss.

Well here I am today, I have Steel Panthers, and other games. I call them "other games", because frankly thats all they really are to me. My golden era started with Steel Panthers. As such, I can't really hold any connection with anything predating 95 much really.

If XP could run Clash of Steel I guess some would be happy. But the last time I looked at that game, I though UGHHH that game is ugly. I would much rather play a board game.
That XP can't play every darned dinosaur really doesn't bother me a great deal. It's not like I am going to be all that interested in playing them even if it could.

I realise that is not likely anyone's sentiments but my own, but there might be a lot more of people like me, just not as vocal as me hehe.

My usual minimum "graphical interest thresshold" is about 1995. Earlier than that, and I would probably not be interested in the game, then or now.

Pity is, if I had say my old 486 system still (I traded it for a washer and dryer when I realised my friend was never going to get the cash to me we agreed upon), I could plop it in my hobby room and let it run my older games probably.

But when I upgrade, I usually don't hoard the old parts long.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 23
- 12/11/2002 1:32:23 AM   
slickric

 

Posts: 51
Joined: 12/5/2002
From: Miami
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Twotribes
[B]You can run a simulated win 95 or win 98 or even win 2000 on XP. As I recall you right click on the icon on desktop and go to properties to set it to run under that. I have one game that wont run with XP and I have it set to win 98 and it works fine. [/B][/QUOTE]

Is the option that will allow win95 only games to run onXP

[IMG]http://www.boomspeed.com/leechman/isthistheoption.jpg[/IMG]

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Post #: 24
- 12/11/2002 1:33:46 AM   
Culiacan Mexico

 

Posts: 8348
Joined: 11/10/2000
From: Bad Windsheim Germany
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kanon Fodder
[B]Just wondering what you used in '92, '93, '94 and the first half of '95 ?
:p [/B][/QUOTE]DOS

_____________________________

"If you love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lig

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Post #: 25
- 12/11/2002 1:56:18 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Aahhhhh DOS the other OS heheh.

Slickric The XP Compatibility feature allows you to sneak a few games onto XP that won't go immediately with no convincing, but it won't do them all.

As we speak, I have just yet again watched Operational Art of War successfully install and successfully accept the compatibility feature on the set up file, run, then I used the patch that was required of this game (a setup .dll hassle), then go the route of a successful install, modify the executable with compatibility feature, just so it could not function. It will inform you it won't function on NT.

Fortunately the uninstall works correctly. But in the end, XP can't make this 1998 software run.

Somestimes a person has to pick an OS and go with it, good points and bad points.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 26
XP; MICROSOFT IN RETREAT - 12/14/2002 10:23:38 AM   
SLAAKMAN


Posts: 2725
Joined: 7/24/2002
Status: offline 		I USED TO BELIEVE MICROSOFT WAS THE CUTTING EDGE. BUT THAT WAS YEARS AGO. NOW THEYRE SHOVING THEIR RETAIL BULLSHIT "XP" DOWN OUR THROATS. WHY CANT PEOPLE JUST LEAVE WELL ENOUGH ALONE?? AND WHEN IS LINUX GOING TO BE GAME COMPATIBLE? AT LEAST 98SE WORKS WITH THE MAJORITY OF GAMES. I WILL REMAIN WITH 98SE UNLESS SOMEONE (HOPEFULLY NOT MICROSOFT) COMES ALONG WITH SOMETHING BETTER, EVEN IF IT MEANS MIRROR TRANSFERS FROM NOW TO ETERNITY!!!
SLAAKATTAK

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 27
Re: XP; MICROSOFT IN RETREAT - 12/14/2002 10:14:03 PM   
Culiacan Mexico

 

Posts: 8348
Joined: 11/10/2000
From: Bad Windsheim Germany
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by SLAAKMAN
[B]I USED TO BELIEVE MICROSOFT WAS THE CUTTING EDGE. BUT THAT WAS YEARS AGO. NOW THEYRE SHOVING THEIR RETAIL BULLSHIT "XP" DOWN OUR THROATS. WHY CANT PEOPLE JUST LEAVE WELL ENOUGH ALONE?? [/B][/QUOTE]I like XP and for me it has caused a lot less trouble. I don’t think MS can leave their Operating Systems alone because they are so bad to start with.
[QUOTE][B]
AND WHEN IS LINUX GOING TO BE GAME COMPATIBLE? [/B][/QUOTE]Then I would actually have a choice… I like that.

_____________________________

"If you love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lig

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Post #: 28
- 12/14/2002 11:43:17 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Linux will be compatible about the same time we gamers demand it. Not before.

That society continues to be enslaved to Microsoft, is entirely of our own free will.

I hate Microsoft, but if I use it willingly, I can't complain.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

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Post #: 29
- 12/15/2002 1:07:28 AM   
SLAAKMAN


Posts: 2725
Joined: 7/24/2002
Status: offline 		THATS TRUE SARGE. WE LOST OR BIG OPPORTUNITY BACK IN THE 80'S WHEN EVERYTHING COULDVE BEEN MAC INSTEAD OF PC.

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 30
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