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weapon/ vehicles damages repairable? - 12/9/2002 6:29:39 PM   
stutzkalter

 

Posts: 42
Joined: 2/16/2001
From: dortmund, germany
Status: offline 		hi,
i want to known if

1. a weapon (cannon) malfunction (i don't know who is responsible for it?!, maybe the crew)
2. a tank immobility by opponentfire

is repairable in a running match, like a tank immobilization caused by 'stucking'

thx& regards

harry

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Post #: 1
- 12/9/2002 8:02:44 PM   
CatLord


Posts: 312
Joined: 10/21/2002
From: Lausanne, Switzerland
Status: offline 		I think I have seen weapon malfunctions repaired.

I don't think I have seen immobilised vehicles by opponents' shots ever being repaired...

Cat

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Post #: 2
- 12/9/2002 8:07:39 PM   
Jim1954

 

Posts: 1393
Joined: 5/15/2002
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		I think it's the other way around. Mobility , yes , armament , no.

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Post #: 3
Not Really Sure, But.... - 12/9/2002 10:36:32 PM   
Orzel Bialy


Posts: 2664
Joined: 4/4/2002
From: Wisconsin USA
Status: offline 		I did see a gun that malfunctioned come back into play...but only once and never so far in a game of 10-15 turns. Mine was on a long campaign battle of like 30 turns.
A MG on a tank gave me the malfunction message like on the third or fourth turn...and then that same tank, at the end of the battle, had it's MG back for the last two turns. Now don't ask if it that was normal or just a glitch I experienced...I couldn't tell ya for sure! ;)
As for AFV's immoblized by mud or terrain yes they can come "back from the dead" but so far I have not see one come back from battle damage.

How's that for a big MAYBE!?!?! :D :p :) LOL

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Post #: 4
- 12/10/2002 12:02:49 AM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		I'll second Orzel here - yes, BUT DON'T COUNT ON IT! :D

While 251's tend to get immobilized for just about anything, I have yet to see one get fixed :mad: Other vehicles have nice crews though, and will eventually get moving again if they don't get shot first.

Guns are repaired to. I once had a Tiger get a main gun malfunction on it second shot in the game, and spent the following ten turns acting as a tracked MG bunker. HOWEVER, things started looking really nasty when *ta-daa* the crew fixed it! Real bad news for the T-34 platoon that was moving in for the kill. :D :D

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Post #: 5
- 12/10/2002 1:18:54 AM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		I had a U.S. 50mm Mortar Jeep immobilized by infiltrators in my backfield early in a PBEM game and about 10 turns later that jeep got moving again.

I think anything (i.e. immobility or weapon breakdown) can be repaired. Some repair rather quickly and some (most?) are so slow that it is best not to count on it making it back into the fight. I think a lot depends on crew experience and having no suppression (e.g. my jeep was all alone in the backfield for the whole time it was immobilized so it had no suppression). This may explain the varying degrees of repair everyone is seeing. If your unit gets shot at or is anywhere near the action, it will probably never get the broken part fixed. That Tiger Belisarius had that lost its main gun probably would have repaired more quickly if it had been withdrawn to safety instead of used as a mobile MG bunker, but maybe not, so you have to decide for yourself...

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Post #: 6
- 12/10/2002 1:48:52 AM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		Yes, I'm aware of how suppression affects the crew's ability to repair damage (except for said 251's :mad: ). In this case I don't think I had the luxury option of retreating the Tiger, though. ;)

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Post #: 7
- 12/10/2002 4:31:31 AM   
Wolfleader

 

Posts: 94
Joined: 10/31/2002
Status: offline 		On the note of weapons malfunctions I just have this question:

How realistic is it? I mean I've heard of MG's malfunctioning and jamming in combat but tank guns? I know a tank cannon begins to sag from the heat generated from constantly firing which hampers its accuracy but I have yet to hear of one actually jamming or malfunctioning in combat.

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Post #: 8
- 12/10/2002 8:53:53 AM   
Hades

 

Posts: 565
Joined: 12/3/2001
From: Texas
Status: offline 		If the main gun was hit by cannon fire, that would cause it to foul up. Or a round could misfire and get stuck in it.

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Post #: 9
- 12/10/2002 9:30:51 PM   
kevsharr

 

Posts: 88
Joined: 2/5/2002
From: Conyers, Georgia
Status: offline 		Or the casehead could seperate leaving the rest of the case in the chamber or the extractor could slip over the rim do to loose tolerances leaving the entire case in the chamber.Both condition's would require the gun cleaning rod to be pushed down the barrel[I know we had to do that to our M-60-a1 during a firing exercise]which would be difficult in the middle of a fire fight.Or in the case of a misfire which could be a hangfire were the powder charge is smoldering do to humidity or age and can go off at any time.Had this happen twice due to an old lot of ammunition.The procedure at the time[early 70's]was to open the breach rotate the shell 180 degree's and try firing it again,if that failed you were to wait one minute and remove it. Now that was nerve wracking especially when you opened the breech to rotate,if it went off partially extracted it woul'nt be pretty.The problem[depending on how well liked the range safety officer was]was that the range safety off.had to take it from you clammer down off the tank and carry it to a roped off safety area,I did'nt envy him having to carry that potential bomb all that distance.This was in a none combat sit.in a combat sit.you'd probably pull and throw it out the hatch as fast as possible

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Post #: 10
- 12/12/2002 11:03:52 AM   
Irinami

 

Posts: 746
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Florida, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hades
[B]If the main gun was hit by cannon fire, that would cause it to foul up. Or a round could misfire and get stuck in it. [/B][/QUOTE]

Or if there were any sort of automatic or assisted loader, the loader and/or gunner could get their arm stuck in it. This was/is a problem with Cold-War Soviet autoloaders, and I can see it happening in the heat of battle without an autoloader (eg, wounded loader needs assistance).

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Post #: 11
Weapon malfunctions - 12/25/2002 10:00:39 AM   
Tomanbeg

 

Posts: 4385
Joined: 7/14/2000
From: Memphis, Tn, CSA
Status: offline 		Originally posted by Wolfleader
[B]On the note of weapons malfunctions I just have this question:

How realistic is it? I mean I've heard of MG's malfunctioning and jamming in combat but tank guns? I know a tank cannon begins to sag from the heat generated from constantly firing which hampers its accuracy but I have yet to hear of one actually jamming or malfunctioning in combat. [/B].

Mostly it's the hydraulics. Remember, recoil is controlled by a oil filled tube connected to the tube. As the State of the gun change fluid is transferred. That requires pumps and hoses, fittings, etc.. Here is a URL to a site on the M3 with some photos of the hull mounted 75mm gun. as you can see it is more then just a tube with a hole in both ends.http://www.kithobbyist.com/AFVInteriors/grant/grant1.html

As far as Mortars, they get to hot from the friction of the bomb being fired out. this can cause the bomb to get stuck part way down and/or cook off.
While I have had weapons get repaired during the game, It is a rare thing and I think of it as more of a jam then a breakdown. The germans especially had trouble with quality control(slave labor maybe?) and they would load a round and not have it go off. That means you have a live one up the chute that has to be cleared. That is very dangerous on the firing range, I doubt if being shot at improves the safety factor any. To have a fitting break would mean a trip back to the garage, since it might be neccessary to remove the gun from the tank to get at the part.
T.

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Post #: 12
- 12/25/2002 4:52:03 PM   
Toontje

 

Posts: 345
Joined: 10/9/2002
From: The Netherlands
Status: offline 		I've been told the round needed at least 1 or 2 rotations (from the rifling?) before it armed. Might have been just howitzers tho, or more modern ammo.

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Post #: 13
- 12/25/2002 11:08:03 PM   
Tomanbeg

 

Posts: 4385
Joined: 7/14/2000
From: Memphis, Tn, CSA
Status: offline 		Originally posted by Toontje
[B]I've been told the round needed at least 1 or 2 rotations (from the rifling?) before it armed. Might have been just howitzers tho, or more modern ammo. [/B]

HE, or HEAT, and you are talking about the shell itself. With an AP round there is nothing to arm, it is a machined chunk of steel. I'm talking about the round, by which I mean the entire thing. Shell and case. AFAIK there were very few AFV's that didn't use 1 piece rounds, where the shell and case with powder are a unit. Maybe a hand full of SP Guns. The Shell of a 105 contains about 10 kilos of HE, plus there is the weight of the shell itself, the case with the propellant charge could weigh another 20 kilos, so at 30 to 45 kilos per round you are getting toward the upper limits of what the gun bunnies can carry. The Big guns(150mm+ for the army) used bags of powder that are placed behind the shell with a firing charge. This is all 'rule of thumb' and can vary from army to army.
T.

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Post #: 14
- 12/26/2002 9:46:47 AM   
Supervisor

 

Posts: 5166
Joined: 3/2/2004
Status: offline 		To sum it up, immobilization can be repaired whether it's terrain induced or damage inflication. Malfunction of weapons can also be repaired, one thing that can not be repaired is weapon damage (which differs from a malfunction). 2 things play a major rule on if things get fixed and or malfunctions repaired. 1. The item in question [B]must[/B] have a toolbox. 2.The ablilty to repair/deimmobilize is random but crew experieince plays a major role on the ability to be succesful, at the end of every turn the computer performs it's series of experiece checks (don't forget surpression plays a major role here) to see if the hinderence should be corrected. Some times this could take several turns other times things may not get fixed through the entire battle. :( :( :( (3)

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Post #: 15
Well...I'll be D@mned!!! - 12/28/2002 7:51:31 AM   
Orzel Bialy


Posts: 2664
Joined: 4/4/2002
From: Wisconsin USA
Status: offline 		No sooner do we talk about this than I see it happen! In a scenario I played last night a HT took a hit and was immobilized. Four turns later it was ready to roll!!! :eek:

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Post #: 16
- 12/28/2002 7:54:15 AM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		I've seen that, but not a weapon breakdown be fixed...:(

Goblin

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Post #: 17
- 12/28/2002 8:51:24 AM   
Supervisor

 

Posts: 5166
Joined: 3/2/2004
Status: offline 		I've seen several main gun malfunctions that occur early in a large/long battle get repaired late in the battle, but it happens much less than unimmobiliztions do. I would think that a weapon malfunction carries an inherant surpression value on its own, not being able to defend yourselves properly as opposed to being stuck in the mud in the middle of nowhere.

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Post #: 18
Re: Weapon malfunctions - 7/11/2003 11:47:02 PM   
arethusa

 

Posts: 145
Joined: 5/12/2003
From: GTA, Canada
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tomanbeg
As far as Mortars, they get to hot from the friction of the bomb being fired out. this can cause the bomb to get stuck part way down and/or cook off.
While I have had weapons get repaired during the game, It is a rare thing and I think of it as more of a jam then a breakdown. The germans especially had trouble with quality control(slave labor maybe?) and they would load a round and not have it go off. That means you have a live one up the chute that has to be cleared. That is very dangerous on the firing range, I doubt if being shot at improves the safety factor any. To have a fitting break would mean a trip back to the garage, since it might be neccessary to remove the gun from the tank to get at the part.
T. [/B][/QUOTE]
Anybody who has read the book "Schindler's List" or looked up any of his history will know that later in the war, his factory made munitions for the German army but he intentionally made them just slightly off-spec so that they would either jam or misfire when used. I have no idea how he got away with it without being detected for the last couple years of the war but that could certainly account for some 'weapons malfunctions' in the game. You just can't send very many 88.25mm shells down an 88mm barrel for long without something bad happening.:p

As for other possibilities, I would think hits on the gun mantle of a tank could jam the movement of the barrel; either by cracking or warping the shield or perhaps dislodging the trunnion from it's axle so that the gun can't be elevated. A gun pointing up at 10mils past horizontal doesn't do you much good when your target is 500 yards away on level ground.

Another thing I've heard about Soviet tanks was that they tank was designed around the weapon with no thought given to the crew. They tried to make the turret as small as possible. While not technically a malfunction, the turrets were so small that if the loader didn't move fast enough before the gun was fired, then when recoiling, the breach would hit him. I would think a loader with hamburg for a shoulder, :( wouldn't be very useful to the gun-captain but his body would get in the way of reloading the main gun for a considerable while.

And yes, even the big guns get hot quickly and can only be fired so many times without waiting for them to cool. Bren guns even came with two barrels so that they could be changed every 2 or 3 mags to let the used barrel cool off. A hot barrel expands which means that the bore gets smaller which means now you might have a barrel that was 88mm and now is 87.9mm ID. I wouldn't want to be the one pulling the trigger!:eek:

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Post #: 19
- 7/12/2003 3:01:38 AM   
Toontje

 

Posts: 345
Joined: 10/9/2002
From: The Netherlands
Status: offline 		*** unimmobiliztions ***

Is this a word? I'd have chosen remobilisation.

Anyway, what has been told to me is that German howitzers firing a shell didn't have a problem with jammed rounds. This due to the round having to revolve at least a # of times before arming itself.

Of cause it's still stuck, and just try to clear it under fire.

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Post #: 20
- 7/12/2003 6:43:17 AM   
arethusa

 

Posts: 145
Joined: 5/12/2003
From: GTA, Canada
Status: offline 		I think gmanfan just thinks faster than his fingers can type. ;) But not to worry, It happens to all of us sometimes. The older I get, the more it seems I spell like that too! :eek:

When I was in the artillery (late '60's), all the shells we fired had to rotate a set times before they were armed and I'd expect it was standard in all countries forces. I don't know about WWII ammo but even if the Germans had such a tech first, it's such an obvious safety factor that I can't imagine the allies would have been far behind in developing their own 'arming mech.' once they knew about it.

My father flew Pathfinder Lancasters during the war and he says the bombs had to rotate before arming (the tail fins made them spin like an arrow) so for sure the allies had the same concept.

However, the gun is still jammed even if the warhead hasn't armed.

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