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A couple of questions about unit prep - 8/17/2012 8:49:32 PM   
wadail


Posts: 55
Joined: 8/17/2012
Status: offline 		Sorry if this has been answered, but I did look through the forum and search before posting.

I get the whole concept of preparing a until to assault a base, but how does the system work when the combat is taking place in a hex that does not contain a base? Is prep only for base combat?

For example, in the vicinity of Port Moresby but not in the base hex. Does the game check for the closest base or does it not take unit prep into account? In this example as I am pushing the Japanese across the island would I have the units prepped for Port Moresby until the combat is 1 hex closer to Buna and then I should change the prep?

Also, does the system actually check for prep against the current hex, or only check the prep level. Another example: I split 5 USMC regiments among 1st and 5th Amphib HQ and prepare attacks against Tarawa and a nearby island. At first I am sending 3 regiments to Tarawa and 2 to the other island, but discover the other island merits the 3rd regiment. Will the regiment with 100% for Tarawa suffer a penalty if it attacks the other island instead? Will only the 1 regiment suffer the penalty, or the whole invasion?

Thanks!

< Message edited by wadail -- 8/17/2012 8:57:45 PM >

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Post #: 1
RE: A couple of questions about unit prep - 8/17/2012 8:57:34 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		AFAIK, prep only works for bases ans it's checked against base you are attacking. So preparing to other base will not help combat in another base.

And if assaulting atoll with unit that is prepared for other base, it is going to hurt a bit..so you need to judge between extra casualties and extra troops. Preparation is unit by unit.

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Post #: 2
RE: A couple of questions about unit prep - 8/17/2012 8:59:26 PM   
wadail


Posts: 55
Joined: 8/17/2012
Status: offline 		Thank you! That's going to save me a carpal-tunnel purple heart in China and Burma!

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Post #: 3
RE: A couple of questions about unit prep - 8/17/2012 10:23:56 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline 		Sardaukar, I was wondering about "defensive" prep. Certainly it helps you on attack, BUT is the defender's level of prep for the hex the unit is defending come into the equation? Or is this simply for the attacker? Is there a comparison between the attacker's level and that of the defender? Is this then decided by the % prepped with the advantage going to the one prepped more? Or does it matter that a defender is prepped for another spot (future plans, which is what I believe it is an abstraction of) and has not bothered prepping a defense (by prepping for the position that the unit is currently in)? I was always wondering this and I'm not sure what the answer is...

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RE: A couple of questions about unit prep - 8/17/2012 10:30:46 PM   
wadail


Posts: 55
Joined: 8/17/2012
Status: offline 		Or, here is a possibility, does fortification level serve as "prep" for a defender?

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Post #: 5
RE: A couple of questions about unit prep - 8/17/2012 10:36:10 PM   
Sardaukar


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From: Finland/Israel
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Sardaukar, I was wondering about "defensive" prep. Certainly it helps you on attack, BUT is the defender's level of prep for the hex the unit is defending come into the equation? Or is this simply for the attacker? Is there a comparison between the attacker's level and that of the defender? Is this then decided by the % prepped with the advantage going to the one prepped more? Or does it matter that a defender is prepped for another spot (future plans, which is what I believe it is an abstraction of) and has not bothered prepping a defense (by prepping for the position that the unit is currently in)? I was always wondering this and I'm not sure what the answer is...


It's for both for base they are in. If other unit is not prepared for that base and other makes various checks, chances are one prepared gets advantage. So you see Preparation (+)or (-) etc. in combat report. AFAIK, it does not get into calculation outside bases.

Remember also, that unit with max. Preparation (100) will start train experience up to national maximum. Very important in China, thus I rarely change preparation target for Chinese unit. They start with very low exp.

Also, unit with Rest mode has chance to gather Preparation points faster than when in other modes. It also rises Morale, so is double useful for units in rear area. And also makes it more likely that unit upgrades equipment. So very useful for preparing for amphibious assaults.."getting there fastest with mostest".


< Message edited by Sardaukar -- 8/17/2012 10:40:20 PM >

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Post #: 6
RE: A couple of questions about unit prep - 8/17/2012 10:38:06 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
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From: Finland/Israel
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wadail

Or, here is a possibility, does fortification level serve as "prep" for a defender?


Fortification is separate entity that is also calculated in battle, just like terrain, exp, morale, preparation, firepower of squads & equipment, leaders and whatnot. There are multiple things that affect ground combat.




_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


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Post #: 7
RE: A couple of questions about unit prep - 8/18/2012 1:34:25 AM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline 		Thanks Sardaukar, I appreciate the input. Hal

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Post #: 8
RE: A couple of questions about unit prep - 8/18/2012 10:42:29 AM   
inqistor


Posts: 1813
Joined: 5/12/2010
Status: offline 		Main function of preparation is to reduce loses during amphibious assault.

But there is also trick - if you set elements of one LCU to different targets, whole unit will get the target of element, on which you click REBUILD button.

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Post #: 9
RE: A couple of questions about unit prep - 8/18/2012 5:39:10 PM   
wadail


Posts: 55
Joined: 8/17/2012
Status: offline 		So, to recap everyone's fine advice:

1) Prep penalty is applied per unit and not per stack of units, and mainly applies to amphibious invasions. This seems to indicate prep does not play a role in non-amphibious combat, so if I really need to invade Rabaul in a hurry it would seem I could invade an unoccupied hex nearby and march to the target (erm.. not sure I can do that). This also seems to indicate prep doesn't need to be closely managed for static land warfare in Asia.

2) Units prep faster in rest mode

3) If sub-units are re-combined, the larger unit is prepped based on the prep target of the sub-unit selected to perform the re-combination.

4) Units will train as long as a target is prepped to 100. It does not have to be a specific target and this calculation is separate from lack-of-prep disruptions that would occur as part of an invasion. So, prep probably does not need to be managed for non-combat units such as base engineers (May be better for that unit on Wake Island to have San Francisco at 100 and be training, than lose the time to prep to current target), but units that will "fight" in an amphib invasion (Inf, Armor, Art, CD, Combat Engineers) should prep. A HQ then becomes an unknown if it is not in the same hex.

5) Preparation applies to defending units (but fortification is unrelated). On the surface this seems to contradict #1, unless it is only a factor in defending against amphibious invasion.




< Message edited by wadail -- 8/18/2012 6:01:59 PM >

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Post #: 10
RE: A couple of questions about unit prep - 8/18/2012 6:00:33 PM   
wadail


Posts: 55
Joined: 8/17/2012
Status: offline 		Sorry about this post.. fat-fingered quote instead of edit apparently..

quote:

ORIGINAL: wadail

So, to recap everyone's fine advice:

1) Prep penalty is applied per unit and not per stack of units, and mainly applies to amphibious invasions. This seems to indicate prep does not play a role in non-amphibious combat, so if I really need to invade Rabaul in a hurry it would seem I could invade an unoccupied hex nearby and march to the target (erm.. not sure I can do that). This also seems to indicate prep doesn't need to be closely managed for static land warfare in Asia.

2) Units prep faster in rest mode

3) If sub-units are re-combined, the larger unit is prepped based on the prep target of the sub-unit selected to perform the re-combination.

4) Units will train as long as a target is prepped to 100. It does not have to be a specific target and this calculation is separate from lack-of-prep disruptions that would occur as part of an invasion. So, prep probably does not need to be managed for non-combat units such as base engineers (May be better for that unit on Wake Island to have San Francisco at 100 and be training, than lose the time to prep to current target), but units that will "fight" in an amphib invasion (Inf, Armor, Art, CD, Combat Engineers) should prep. A HQ then becomes an unknown if it is not in the same hex.

5) Preparation applies to defending units (but fortification is unrelated). On the surface this seems to contradict #1, unless it is only a factor in defending against amphibious invasion.






< Message edited by wadail -- 8/18/2012 6:03:23 PM >

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Post #: 11
RE: A couple of questions about unit prep - 8/18/2012 6:39:54 PM   
inqistor


Posts: 1813
Joined: 5/12/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wadail

1) Prep penalty is applied per unit and not per stack of units, and mainly applies to amphibious invasions. This seems to indicate prep does not play a role in non-amphibious combat, so if I really need to invade Rabaul in a hurry it would seem I could invade an unoccupied hex nearby and march to the target (erm.. not sure I can do that). This also seems to indicate prep doesn't need to be closely managed for static land warfare in Asia.

Preparation of BOTH sides influence combat. Just NOT in serious way (it seems defender gets penalty, when NOT 100% prepared). Also, preparation of COMMANDING HQs influence combat, in serious quantity.
You can prepare to land ONLY against bases. You do NOT get assault landing ONLY in friendly base. If there is NO base in hex, landing will be ALWAYS unprepared. That means around 50% squads disrupted/destroyed, when you unload out of base.

quote:

2) Units prep faster in rest mode

I am not sure, but probably not.

quote:

3) If sub-units are re-combined, the larger unit is prepped based on the prep target of the sub-unit selected to perform the re-combination.

Also percentage is averaged out. If one unit was prepared at 100%, and second at 50%, whole unit will be around 75% after recombine.

quote:

4) Units will train as long as a target is prepped to 100. It does not have to be a specific target and this calculation is separate from lack-of-prep disruptions that would occur as part of an invasion. So, prep probably does not need to be managed for non-combat units such as base engineers (May be better for that unit on Wake Island to have San Francisco at 100 and be training, than lose the time to prep to current target), but units that will "fight" in an amphib invasion (Inf, Armor, Art, CD, Combat Engineers) should prep. A HQ then becomes an unknown if it is not in the same hex.

There is maximum exp level, depending of nationality. Mostly around 50. Then, they will get exp only by combat. And during defending, your SUPPORT SQUADS, also add 1/10th AV for combat, so all units should be prepared for hex.

quote:

5) Preparation applies to defending units (but fortification is unrelated). On the surface this seems to contradict #1, unless it is only a factor in defending against amphibious invasion.

It probably also reduce damage from air, and sea attacks. AIR HQ prepared for enemy base causes more planes to fly against it.

(in reply to wadail)
Post #: 12
RE: A couple of questions about unit prep - 8/18/2012 6:49:18 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wadail

So, to recap everyone's fine advice:

1) Prep penalty is applied per unit and not per stack of units, and mainly applies to amphibious invasions. This seems to indicate prep does not play a role in non-amphibious combat, so if I really need to invade Rabaul in a hurry it would seem I could invade an unoccupied hex nearby and march to the target (erm.. not sure I can do that). This also seems to indicate prep doesn't need to be closely managed for static land warfare in Asia.


The part I highlighted is totally false. Important stuff:

- LCU prep is important for amphibious landing. Less prep = more casualties and more disruption. Landing where you have 0% prep for is always the worst. Notice this means that landing at a non-base hex always has a cost (because you can not prep for them).

- LCU prep is important for combat. When prep hits 30% it begins to provide advantage but only when you fight at that base.

- LCU prep is important for training. When a unit's prep is 100%, it will slowly train until the units' experience reaches the national maximum (above that can only be gained by combat experience).

- LCU prep of HQ type units can add bonuses to other LCUs within range which fight at that base. Do read the manual to review this point.


quote:


2) Units prep faster in rest mode

3) If sub-units are re-combined, the larger unit is prepped based on the prep target of the sub-unit selected to perform the re-combination.

4) Units will train as long as a target is prepped to 100. It does not have to be a specific target and this calculation is separate from lack-of-prep disruptions that would occur as part of an invasion. So, prep probably does not need to be managed for non-combat units such as base engineers (May be better for that unit on Wake Island to have San Francisco at 100 and be training, than lose the time to prep to current target), but units that will "fight" in an amphib invasion (Inf, Armor, Art, CD, Combat Engineers) should prep. A HQ then becomes an unknown if it is not in the same hex.

5) Preparation applies to defending units (but fortification is unrelated). On the surface this seems to contradict #1, unless it is only a factor in defending against amphibious invasion.





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Post #: 13
RE: A couple of questions about unit prep - 8/19/2012 3:18:07 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline 		In short, prep is important and must be considered in your overall strategy. I start preping units in San Francisco for places in Asia long before they leave the area (unless I want to get their experience up first) so that they are 100% by the time they get across the pond. Hal

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RE: A couple of questions about unit prep - 8/20/2012 3:11:57 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

In short, prep is important and must be considered in your overall strategy. I start preping units in San Francisco for places in Asia long before they leave the area (unless I want to get their experience up first) so that they are 100% by the time they get across the pond. Hal

+1

Ditto for IJ. You really have to have your entire strategy as IJ in place on Dec 7 because you need to start prep on that date for your Jan/Feb/Mar targets.

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Post #: 15
RE: A couple of questions about unit prep - 8/20/2012 6:36:11 AM   
jmalter

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: inqistor
Main function of preparation is to reduce loses during amphibious assault.

But there is also trick - if you set elements of one LCU to different targets, whole unit will get the target of element, on which you click REBUILD button.

that's a great tip, inqistor - clue-free decision-deferring planners (such as myself) like the idea of dividing an assault division into 3 parts, setting each to plan for a different target - then when i decide where i'm gonna send it, i punch 'recombine', and the whole will now have ~1/3rd the planning value for the target assigned to the sub-unit whose 'recombine' button i tagged, is that right?

but i disagree that prep is mainly for amph assault - rather, it's DOUBLY important.

prep is essential for non-amph land combat - just lately i had ~1750 Indian/Brit AV headed for Singers, they ran into the IJ Imperial Guards Div (& about 10 aux units) fortified at Alor Star. Commonwealth got spanked badly, trying to steamroll that position. I withdrew everyone to Singora for rest/rebuild/prep, after 2 months they had enough moxie to return (at ~85% prep). they captured Alor Star on the 1st deliberate attack. target prep made all the difference between the one result & t'other.

i gather that HQ units don't add in their combat bonus, unless they're at least 50% prepped for the target.

< Message edited by jmalter -- 8/20/2012 6:38:48 AM >

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RE: A couple of questions about unit prep - 8/20/2012 6:24:45 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: inqistor

quote:

ORIGINAL: wadail

quote:

2) Units prep faster in rest mode

I am not sure, but probably not.




They do.

I just tested it. Set 2 units to Rest, preparation was 0, run 2 day turn. One has now 3 Prep points, other 4. So, it is big difference from other modes.


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Post #: 17
RE: A couple of questions about unit prep - 8/20/2012 6:55:53 PM   
Puhis


Posts: 1737
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From: Finland
Status: offline 		I thought units get randomly 1 or 2 preparation points anyway, no matter what the mode is?

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RE: A couple of questions about unit prep - 8/20/2012 7:07:47 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
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From: Finland/Israel
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

I thought units get randomly 1 or 2 preparation points anyway, no matter what the mode is?


Chance is better with Rest-mode. It's easy to test.


< Message edited by Sardaukar -- 8/20/2012 7:08:47 PM >

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"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


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Post #: 19
RE: A couple of questions about unit prep - 8/20/2012 7:27:53 PM   
jeffk3510


Posts: 4132
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		wadail, you must be from Kansas with a picture like that

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Post #: 20
RE: A couple of questions about unit prep - 8/21/2012 9:17:22 PM   
wadail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jeffk3510

wadail, you must be from Kansas with a picture like that



LOL.. close.. NE Oklahoma.

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Post #: 21
RE: A couple of questions about unit prep - 8/22/2012 9:28:24 PM   
olperfessor


Posts: 98
Joined: 4/28/2003
From: New York, N.Y.
Status: offline 		Is there any benefit to having a construction engineering unit or an aviation support unit prepped for its base? I do this routinely but always have the sense that it does not matter.

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Post #: 22
RE: A couple of questions about unit prep - 8/22/2012 11:40:06 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline 		Since you seem to be concerned about your Chinese units in non-base hexes, you need to know that if a unit sits in a non-base hex for a while it will begin to build fortifications - up to level 3, I think. This helps immensely on defence against greater Japanese firepower.
The time needed to get these fortifications depends a lot on supply. Engineers are not required for low-level fort building [think trenches and coconut palm logs], but if they are present the building goes faster.
All of this means you should decide your "line of defence" early and get your troops to the hex so they can build before the enemy arrives. Even if not resting, morale seems to improve if they sit still and build fortifications in the woods/on mountains.

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RE: A couple of questions about unit prep - 8/24/2012 8:29:05 PM   
wadail


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Joined: 8/17/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Since you seem to be concerned about your Chinese units in non-base hexes, you need to know that if a unit sits in a non-base hex for a while it will begin to build fortifications - up to level 3, I think. This helps immensely on defence against greater Japanese firepower.
The time needed to get these fortifications depends a lot on supply. Engineers are not required for low-level fort building [think trenches and coconut palm logs], but if they are present the building goes faster.
All of this means you should decide your "line of defence" early and get your troops to the hex so they can build before the enemy arrives. Even if not resting, morale seems to improve if they sit still and build fortifications in the woods/on mountains.


And the terrain helps. I seem to be able to stop the Japanese much better in Burma when I pull back to a river and let the units "dig in". Of course, you rin the risk of having your flank turned by an amphibious invasion.

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Post #: 24
RE: A couple of questions about unit prep - 8/25/2012 8:27:11 AM   
inqistor


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Joined: 5/12/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

Prep is essential for non-amph land combat - just lately i had ~1750 Indian/Brit AV headed for Singers, they ran into the IJ Imperial Guards Div (& about 10 aux units) fortified at Alor Star. Commonwealth got spanked badly, trying to steamroll that position. I withdrew everyone to Singora for rest/rebuild/prep, after 2 months they had enough moxie to return (at ~85% prep). they captured Alor Star on the 1st deliberate attack. target prep made all the difference between the one result & t'other.

You would not believe how quickly AV degrade during combat, and how quickly it recovers, when LCU rest in base, out-of-combat. Most probably you began battle with lots of disabled squads, in the first place. Also, non-disabled Combat Engineers do wonders.

quote:

i gather that HQ units don't add in their combat bonus, unless they're at least 50% prepped for the target.

I am pretty sure they work even without target set. Just recently I had two divisions in China attacking Chinese base, mostly at 1:2. Once HQ got into range, base fell in first attack. None of the unit was preparing for that base.
Oh, and mentioning recent discussion about industry damages. Battle took about 3 weeks, and I captured base INTACT.

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Post #: 25
RE: A couple of questions about unit prep - 8/25/2012 4:32:40 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline 		Yeah, the damage to industry depends on enemy engineers being present when the base fell. Engineers set the demolition charges. Lots of eng = lots of damage. Since Chinese infantry units lack engineers it is not unusual to have no base or industry damage when they retreat.

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