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- 8/18/2002 3:42:52 AM   
Moraelin

 

Posts: 5
Joined: 8/18/2002
Status: offline 		Sorry, I'll have to throw my vote with the "_no_ game is worth 80$ (including shipping) to me".

I downloaded the demo. I liked it. I liked it a lot. (I play most games in single-player, anyway, so I'm not bothered at all that there's no MP. And the 50 turns, well, I can understand that.) So I wanted to buy it. I pick up the credit card and go to the shop site. Whoa, the shipping costs almost as much as the game itself. So I'm supposed to pay almost 80$ to get it? Put credit card back, close browser.

Now i can understand that the extra 40 bucks goes to the post office, but that's fully irrelevant to me. For all I care it could have just as well went to the CIA, or to a secret base on Alpha Centauri. Bottom line is that some 80 bucks total are required from my wallet, if I want to play the game. And while the demo was good, it wasn't _that_ good to be worth 80$ for the full version.

Now obviously, I can't force you guys to offer a sensible download option for 40$. For all I care, please feel free to keep the "it's my way or the highway" attitude about shipping. But then I'll feel free to keep the "then I'll go play something else" attitude, too.

Somewhat unrelated: I wrote an email to the sales guys asking if I can't buy it by download, and after a week or two I didn't even get an automated "sorry, that's not possible" reply. I didn't even get an automated "check our international dealers" reply. (And no, the shop site didn't make it obvious that there are any international dealers.) I didn't get _any_ reply. It's like I sent the email down a black hole. Basically I'm just getting a "shoo, go away, we're not interested in selling you anything" kind of impression. Fair enough.

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 61
Demo thoughts - 8/23/2002 6:44:25 PM   
DKramer

 

Posts: 1
Joined: 8/23/2002
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline 		I am one of the silent downloaders - multiple times, actually! I hadn't really had time to try the demo until this discussion piqued my interest. I'm adding my vote to the 'needs to be longer' column. I was just beginning to get interested in the game when I ran out of time. It would be nice to be able to get a new colony or a new ship or two to really get involved before being frustrated by the end of the demo. That said, I'm planning on buying the full version next week - I'm interested enough in the game to give it a shot, and value the efforts of those involved. I don't have international shipping and cost problems, though - but will definitely have it shipped FEDEX.

_____________________________

Submarines, hydrology, turbomachinery, whatever.

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 62
SUDG demo - 9/16/2002 9:30:09 PM   
ltfightr


Posts: 537
Joined: 6/16/2002
From: Little Rock AR
Status: offline 		The demo was included with UV. I played some and would agree that it is not long enough to make me pick up my card and order it right away. I have bought a lot of software that is sitting in boxes due to poor playability,or AI or ..... I like to see what happens before I buy. I might buy something I have been meaning to preview in an close out bin at best buy ect cheap but not at this price range will I gamble anymore without a good reason. WITP I will buy despite the price this the demo must be longer and have more to do.

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 63
For the Finns out there... - 10/3/2002 3:56:41 AM   
Tuomas Seijavuori

 

Posts: 91
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Espoo, Finland
Status: offline 		I thought I'd post this here as well for the benefit of any Finns reading this forum: Stockmann department store will carry Starhips Unlimited: Divided Galaxies if there are interested buyers without an international credit card. We ship everywhere in Finland with postal order (postiennakko, that is - no credit card required). Anyone who would like to reserve a copy of SUDG, Uncommon Valor or any currently available Matrix Games title: my work phone# is 09-121 4335 and my email: tuomas(piste)seijavuori(miuku)stockmann(piste)fi. It would be nice to know how many you are out there, so we know how many units we should get. The price will depend on the number of orders we get, to some extent.

Thank you.

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 64
Why I didn't buy STUN:DG after the demo - 10/18/2002 2:16:29 PM   
DSandberg

 

Posts: 107
Joined: 6/19/2002
From: MN
Status: offline 		I did try the STUN:DG demo (I think it was the one that was on my UV CD). And I'm a big fan of this genre of games (MOO, RTFS, even drek like Malkari and Ascendancy). Although I must say that I'm not sure that STUN fits easily into that genre, which was one of my problems with it (see the end of this article for more on that).

First off, I didn't care for the real-time nature of STUN. I like these types of games better when they are mainly turn-based.

The demo was definitely too short. I tried it about four times, and never saw anything other than the things defending new planets (spiders, storm clouds, etc.) before the demo timed out. No other empires ever appeared ... at the time I assumed it was because the demo didn't allow enough time for me to expand far enough to make contact with any other empires. Either I haven't seen even a fraction of the types of things that can happen in the game, or else the game is too limited for my taste. (At the risk of repeating myself, I have no idea which of these situations is the actual case because of the severely limited demo length.)

Also I feel that a game of this type in this day and age does demand at least somewhat more in the way of graphics than what STUN:DG offers. The things defending planets (spiders, storm clouds, etc.) were really pretty cheezy in my book ... I was reminded more of Pac-Man than of Star Wars. Another post in this thread described these graphics as comparable to RFTS, but if they were talking about the version of RFTS from a year or two back rather than the one from the 80's, I think they were being far too generous. I'd rather look at still-frame renders of detailed, impressive, beautiful spaceships than the 2D icon-like graphics I mostly saw in this demo.

Finally, and here is the big one ... judging from the demo, STUN:DG felt like a game to me, not a simulation. Most space-based 4X games make some sort of effort to portray a universe that is somewhat scientifically justifiable ... I think that sense of reality, even a pseudo-futuristic made-up reality, is important to the type of people who enjoy games in this genre. The STUN:DG demo felt less like that and more like Pac-Man or Doom to me ... it was just "kill the ever-present, unexplainable planet defender and collect the power-up", and repeat ad infinum. Again, the demo length could be partially to blame for that perception, but I suspect it's true to at least some extent of the game as a whole.

So, there's my opinion ... make of it what you will.

- David

_____________________________

"... planning and preparations were made with great efforts with this day as a goal. Before this target day came, however, the tables had been turned around entirely and we are now forced to do our utmost to cope with the worst. Thi

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 65
- 10/20/2002 7:03:33 AM   
Geo the Elder

 

Posts: 8
Joined: 7/15/2002
From: Pennsylvania, USA
Status: offline 		This one is a tough one for me. My buddy saw the game, downloaded the demo and knowing that my 8 year old constantly bugs me to play and help him play MOO, bought the game as a gift. Me, not wanting to play MOO any more, not because I do not like it, but because is does not run on my newer system without doing strange things and locking up at inopertune times.

After loading it up and testing out, I brought my son in to see the new game his god-father got him. My son was full of guestions such as why do all the planets look like earth, what are those funny looking things around the planets, why can't he see whats in the colony and why can't we have different looking ships. After awhile he lost interest and has not asked me to play it. He still wants to play MOO and does so on the old computer but being a jaded youth, the system is too sloooowww and so asks me and the circle starts. One opinion.

I worked through the game a couple of times and found the basic game quite good. Here is the dilemma: I want to support and incourage those who have gotten it this far but the bottom line is that it lacks depth. I hope that it gets enough support to take it to the next level because there seems to be alot of us out there that are looking for the next level up....dare I say it....MOO. Yes I remember Starflight and I liked having to land on planet and look for resources...it was a bit funky but great concept. I would like to land on hostile planets and have a little battle rather than just a little icon moving down to another little icon, then seeing "you win". I would like to see strange and new worlds look like strange and new worlds even if it was only 10 or 20 standard images. I would like to lay out the colony, customize the production, defense and offense. So as I have said in another forum on Matrix....I could go on! This is what I mean by lacking depth.

Please accept this in the spirt that it is given, good job so far.

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 66
- 11/22/2002 4:13:30 AM   
Hrothgar


Posts: 180
Joined: 11/16/2002
From: PA
Status: offline 		Hi Folks,

I want to add my vote for the "Demo was too short" explanation.

I know that a good demo really helps me decide abuot buying a game. And, I've never rejected buying a game I liked because the demo was too complete. I remember the original Steel Panthers demo. It had, as I recall, every feature from the full game, including random scenario generation, etc. But, it doesn't seem to have hurt it's sales. Next to Panzer General, etc., it's got to be one of the top selling PC wargames ever.

But this demo was just too short to show the interesting part of thegame. Fortunately, I had just discovered the shareware version and had played its demo, which lasts significantly longer. I could see that the two were similar enough that I could count on SUDG continuing in a fashion similar to that of the original SU, so, rather than get the shareware version, which I had been about to do, I got the Matrix version, which I had just heard about. But, the important point is, I got it based on the shareware demo, not the Matix demo, which was just too limited.

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 67
- 11/22/2002 3:12:25 PM   
startrekdork

 

Posts: 41
Joined: 11/2/2002
Status: offline 		well i had to agree the demo was way too short. i also played the shareware version which gave me a bigger taste of what the game had to add. i remember playing the shareware version once though i think on an earlier version where you could play as long as you wanted except you couldn't go on to the next age.

as for all the stuff your looking forward too. ya. most of it youll experience. some of it depends on the settings you choose. if you set pirates to hard youll be having them left and right. as for raiding a system that lasts like less than a mintue the ship flies around until an enemy freighter shows up and you blow it up. what youll really experience is you trying to quickly research technology, explore the universe, establish trade routes and build up fleets or more like squadrons of powerful mean looking space ships. you'll also form lots of federations and combine entire other races into your might collective. but by far my favorite part is the beginning exploring, your ship goes so slow but when you do get the powerful engines wow it really makes a difference. or the other big one is when your ships find wormholes and they have these like little weak rocket drives and theyre sent to the other side of the galaxy for you to explore instantly when it would have normally taken you a hundred turns to get there you arrive instantly!

as for the demo. i think around the end of november, when andrew releases the new update that has in it random events they should include a demo that shows off the random events system, drop the price of the game and try and make a quick christmas sale and big up some extra money. hey hey? ;)

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 68
- 11/24/2002 3:53:07 AM   
startrekdork

 

Posts: 41
Joined: 11/2/2002
Status: offline 		so i'm scrolling through the eb website looking at all the games they have in the strategy section and i see this
http://www.eletronicboutique.com/ebx/categories/products/product.asp?pf_id=231895
theyre going to sell starships unlimited for 39.99 starting on 11/25/2002. just when i buy it off the internet i could have gotten it at my local eletronic boutique!

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 69
- 12/9/2002 1:39:50 PM   
xaldin

 

Posts: 1
Joined: 12/9/2002
Status: offline 		Demo is too short for the type of game. I hadn't even figured out really how to do much of anything and didn't have any interaction with other aliens before it ended.

For me the diplomacy model -matters-. I'm not inclined to spend the money until I'm sure I'd be happy playing it.

As is I'll tinker with demo a few more times to see if I can force some alien to land next door so I can chat but if not I'll just move along.

_____________________________

X.

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 70
I didn't bite either - 12/10/2002 10:41:15 PM   
EricLarsen

 

Posts: 458
Joined: 7/9/2002
From: Salinas, CA Raider Nation
Status: offline 		I tried the SUDG demo and was a bit disappointed that it ended too quickly. I was still trying to get the hang of the game system and stuff and poof out went the demo lights after 50 years. While I was mildly amused by the demo, it did remind me a lot of a older Star-Trek game I used to like (atleast until some dreaded fatal bugs ruined a few games that I had gotten very far into). The graphics were better as far as depicting space travel goes although it doesn't look like there is quite as much to research and build as in the older Star-Trek based game.

One thing I would like to know is if the star systems are static or if they are random in configuration. If they are static then after a few plays it would be easy to remember where the good stuff is hiding and when looking at star systems at the start we would know which ones are better to go for first, thus taking out some of the mystery of the game which is after all the best selling point.

It certainly would have whetted my appetite more if I could have read more about the stuff in the game; a copy of the rules to read might well have helped push me over the edge to purchase the game. I also read someone's post here that Electronics Boutique was going to sell the game starting on November 25. Unfortunately that poster was mistaken as the game has not shown up on my local EB's shelves and is not on their list of upcoming games to be sold. Too bad, since if I had went into EB with an extra $40 in my pocket and seen the game I probably would have bought it on impulse (probably closer to warp). As it is I'm not going to order it and have to send a check and then wait 2 weeks for the game to come in the mail while having to waste money on shipping and handling.

If I can't get the game at my local EB on a impulsive whim then I won't even consider buying it through the mail until the price drops to about $30. Too bad since seeing the 2.0 update has made me a little more curious about the game.
Eric Larsen

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 71
- 12/10/2002 11:08:09 PM   
Monkeybutt

 

Posts: 59
Joined: 12/15/2001
From: The Black Hole
Status: offline 		About EB,I was at my local one yesterday and they had a copy on the shelf(along with 2 Uncommon Valor's).$39.99 I think.

Plus it's available through their mail order now... http://www.ebgames.com/ebx/categories/products/product.asp?pf_id=231895

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 72
- 12/12/2002 2:15:29 PM   
startrekdork

 

Posts: 41
Joined: 11/2/2002
Status: offline 		okay first off i already own the game but wanted to see what the box looked like, so i went to my local eb and on the 25 they didnt have it either but then a couple days later im just at eb at random there it is on the shelf just sitting there all covered in other game boxes so i pick it up and look at it and its all pretty and stuff and i put it out on display and think wow i hope someone buys that.

but anyways. i think i know what game ur talking about. star trek birth of the federation, the only game to depict star trek in turn based strategy form, also probably one of the worst star trek games ever.

i laugh every time i play starships unlimited, its more like star trek than BOTF ever was! ever! in response to everything you said:
ya.......its a random galaxy every time. every time i play this game its entirely different. say theres about 8 types of ship models right? but there is 16 alien races. so everytime you play with 8 out of the sixteen alien races they all get a random ship from the 8 types of ship. on top of that each race has a certain type of philosphy, little endian and big endian ( i think) which affects how much they like you depending on which random philosphy you end up with. then on top of that every time the game starts its a random galaxy of four choices like spiral cluster blah blah blah. then it randomly tosses in all the systems, and im pretty sure each system has a random number of planets. plus every game a random number of worm holes are added in random locations, or sometimes there are no wormholes at all which sucks.

you see if you research wormhole all of a sudden all your ships have the ability to go through worm holes. so you could have a ship enter a wormhole, then next thing you know its on the other side of this huge map opening up all sorts of new alien races to meet and artifacts to collect and planets to take under your authority plus it speeds up your ships so you can zip through wormholes and take short cuts while other people have to fly the long way there.

or there are no wormholes on the map and researching it was pointless. you never know

as for the philosphy thing. well i like to think of it in star trek terms. take the humans meeting the vulcans. both belief in the peaceful coexistance stuff right? then you have the klingons and the nausicans or dominion or romulans or borg who want to take over all other races. thats how i think of the two philosphies in the game, which really just make it easier for you to negotiate with a race if they believe in the same things you do.
i also think of the wormhole as the same as voyager because you end up with a ship on the other side of the universe but fortunately you can just turn right back around and head back through the wormhole.

as for your research opinion of there not being another. boy could you not be more wrong. there is soooooooo much to research you really dont get to research it all. at the end of the game it says how much youve researched. the highest i had was like 86 percent which is most of the stuff i was allowed.
let me list off the engines for your ship, rocket drive, electomagnetic drive, gravitron drive, warp drive, transwarp drive, and jump drive. that last one makes it so your ship can instantly go anywhere in the galaxy. instantly. theres also the jump gate which you can build before the jump drive. the jump gate allows you to send ships anywhere in the galaxy but its a one way trip they have to fly back on their own power.

as for the star trek type of stuff to research. theres the federation, which is when an alien race joins with your race and you form one race with you under control. theres inertial dampeners which increase the rate a ship turns by 30 percent. theres teleporters which instantly transport attack parties on board other ships to try and attack them once their shields are down. all sorts of weapon systems engine systems computer and shield systems from star trek. i wish someone would make a star trek mod of it. most of it would just reacquire changing the technology names and adding in ship models and race faces which is supposed to be really easy.

as for your part about written stuff. i know for certain the shareware demo of the game has a manual which is the same as the commercial version. i though the commercial version demo comes with a help file which is basically the manual from the shareware with graphics from the commerical. its located in the matrix games folder somewhere. it tells you how to do everything, and all the technologies and what they do. let me think, you can research up to ten types of freighters each ones just bigger than the last, you research nanotechnology, some sorta birth production increase, cloning, cloning farms, nanotechnolgy factories.
my personal favorite is the tractor beam, for when your ships are stranded in deep space and all you need to do is fly up and drag them back home. also the replicators which decrease the cost of making things.

i had a bunch of ideas for improvements for the game a couple posts down mostly things that make it more star trekish or that would be general improvements. nobody responded. :( oh well. which reminds me, star treks on.

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 73
What's Wrong with SUDG picture - 12/12/2002 11:12:34 PM   
EricLarsen

 

Posts: 458
Joined: 7/9/2002
From: Salinas, CA Raider Nation
Status: offline 		I checked out this forum in hopes of finding some info that would turn me on to buying SUDG. Instead what I found was a rather dismal showing in this forum as far as players yacking up the game. The biggest thread was this one about why the demo didn't spur sales like you thought it ought to.

In my exhaustive search of the shelves looking for SUDG at my local EB I ran across a game called "Hearts of Iron". I checked out the game's forum. I found lots and lots of complaints about bugs and such since it is a newly released title and only has one patch so far with another due before Christmas. I was almost convinced to hold off on the purchase when I went into the AAR forum. There I found lots of very entertaining AAR's. It was those AAR's that convinced me to forego my trepidations about the fatal crash bugs and other problems and to buy it because it was so much fun to play. I bought it yesterday and played a game as Peru, doing nothing, and just watching the game play itself until about 5 years into the game it crashed and burned. I wasn't even mad when it CTD'd on me, just a little bummed that I hadn't engaged the autosave. I was quite amused watching the game play and can't wait to actually start playing it myself.

The moral of the story is if you want to get players interested in SUDG you'd better hope someone of the current owners sees fit to write up an engaging AAR about some game they had. One witty AAR is worth 100 magazine hype-reviews that are just useless payola anyway.
Eric Larsen

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 74
- 12/13/2002 7:54:49 AM   
NefariousKoel


Posts: 2930
Joined: 7/23/2002
From: Murderous Missouri Scum
Status: offline 		OK guys -

If you like 4X, I'd recommend going to your local Gamespot owned store and picking it up. I've already played it much more than any of the MoOs.

Although SUDG is real-time it feels like turn-based to me. It pauses whenevery any action is happening, when one of your units needs an order, or one of your queues are empty. It just saves a lot of 'End Turn' clicking.

The tactical side of starship combat is quite fun and I recommend controlling it yourself. The tech tree is large and interesting. I especially revere the way freighters are handled. It DOES have a bit of a learning curve, but I wouldn't buy a game that doesn't.

It's too bad that you can't get into full fledged inter-race diplomacy in the demo as it can be pretty cutthroat when wars are initiated.

It would be nice to have multiplayer capability, but maybe in a future incarnation :D

As rather dedicated gamer for quite some time now, I would recommend this game to any office chair strategist/tactician. Most recently I've purchased Hearts of Iron, Soldiers of Anarchy, and Starfleet Command 3. SUDG is the only one I play until my eyes are dry and red every night at the moment. Not to say the other games aren't bad, but they generally need some tweak patches and as is.... SUDG is just plain digital crack.

I'm glad Matrix has managed to get a couple of their great games onto retail shelves, and judging by the sales I've seen in my area, they'll be selling more titles to the retailers in the future.

Thanks Andrew & company, and thanks Matrix.

_____________________________


(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 75
- 12/14/2002 5:15:32 AM   
tromper

 

Posts: 3
Joined: 5/15/2002
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline 		Thought I'd drop a word of agreement with what NefariousKoel had so say. I recently bought the beta of Galactic Civilizations and, yeah it's the beta and so on but I got an inkling as to what the alpha will be like, was stunned by how much more impressively SUDG was implemented. Sure the tech trees are going to vary from game to game, from Alpha Centauri to MoO and on down the line, but the menus and logical progression of choices a player can make in SUDG is concise and a lot of fun to play around with, and of course the starship combat is made parmount without being silly like in Starfleet Command 3. I probably played thirty games of SUDG before bothering to actually adjust my crew makeups. Oh my do those Engineers help. I was disappointed to hear that it wasn't selling well in an indie setting, and I hope that the publishers can keep the franchise alive (Andrew willing) through whatever outlets they deem to be most convenient! :)

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 76
- 12/14/2002 11:42:35 PM   
Grotius


Posts: 5798
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: The Imperial Palace.
Status: offline 		I just bought the game, and wow, am I glad I did. It's a very different take on the traditional 4x space game. I love the fact that you can only build relatively few ships and colonies. I love "gaining" territory through exploration and then economic exploitation. Even the diplomacy surprised me: I actually had AI's buttering me up, offering me gifts, etc.; I don't know if that's ever happened to me in Civ or MOO or whatever.

And yes, I tried the demo months ago and wasn't bowled over. In part it's because I didn't know what I was doing; I dunno if the demo comes with a manual or not. Also, the demo ended before I met any other species. By contrast, the actual game just blows me away. Well done!

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 77
I'm buying the game when I can... - 12/15/2002 6:26:42 PM   
Veloxi


Posts: 126
Joined: 12/15/2002
From: Los Angeles, CA
Status: offline 		Hi there, folks, I just wanted to throw my $0.02 in. I played the original version of SU quite extensively, even reviewing it for the site I wrote for at the time (and giving it a very favorable review, BTW ;) ) I tried the demo of SU: DG to see what was changed and improved. While I do agree that the demo was a bit short for folks unfamiliar with the series, it gives a good indication as to what the full game has in store. Based on the demo, I'll be buying the game as soon as I can. Thanks.

[B]Edit:[/B] Welp, after playing the demo for a few days, I finally purchased the full game. I couldn't find it in a local software store, so I ordered it online. I can't wait for my copy.

_____________________________

If it has a spaceship in it, I'll play it.

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 78
Demo - 12/18/2002 2:16:18 PM   
aargyle

 

Posts: 1
Joined: 12/18/2002
Status: offline 		I would like to comment with my first impressions from the demo.
I think theres still a chance that if you improve it and re-announce it as a new version, many people will download it and be totally impressed by your fabulous game :)

The biggest thing for me was the lack of some kind of tutorial. This could be done in game like a lot of demos do, or even a text file with a brief walkthrough would be great. I bet a ton of people who downloaded this did the same thing I did:

I started it up, cringed at the font, and found myself staring at a planet with apparently some cities, and a scout. I clicked on the scout, right clicked somewhere else, played with the 35 buttons up top, clicked on the cities, pressed things, and basically got nowhere. Couldn't get the scout to move, couldn't get more info on the cities. I wanted to pause the game but didn't see that offhand. Besides the specifics of how to do things, I didn't know what my overall goals where. Should I take the scout to another planet? Or do I need a colony ship? What am I doing here? :)

So anyway, I bet this could be fixed with even a text file walkthrough. Something to get our feet wet. I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of people who buy these games based on the demo aren't going to spend more than a few minutes stuck at zero. Get a walkthrough out and this demo might be fantastic!

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 79
Re: Demo - 12/19/2002 2:27:29 AM   
Maxfreeboard

 

Posts: 49
Joined: 12/15/2002
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by aargyle
[B]I would like to comment with my first impressions from the demo.
I think theres still a chance that if you improve it and re-announce it as a new version, many people will download it and be totally impressed by your fabulous game :)

The biggest thing for me was the lack of some kind of tutorial. This could be done in game like a lot of demos do, or even a text file with a brief walkthrough would be great. I bet a ton of people who downloaded this did the same thing I did:

<>
[/B][/QUOTE]

The retail release 2.0 offers just about all the help one could need. Besides extensive online help, a 99 page PDF manual, there's a Tip tab the appears at the bottom left of the screen that has lots of info and suggestions and guides you through game play. If you don't want to read the tips just ignore the little tab. You can page forward/backward through them as they accumulate. The games goals are straight forward; Explore, Expand, Exploit and EXTERMINATE! ;-)

There is also a growing amount on help and general game play information posted on the SUDG forum too.

I find SUDG far more fun then any release of MOO.

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 80
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