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Val - Judy: To upgrade or not to upgrade

 
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Val - Judy: To upgrade or not to upgrade - 8/23/2012 9:04:25 PM   
Atilla60


Posts: 69
Joined: 9/20/2006
From: Jutland, Denmark
Status: offline 		That's the question

PBEM - April 15. 1943

Way back when I made my initial planning for this game, I decided to upgrade from Val to Judy ASAP.
This based on the assumption that doubling the payload, while maintaining the range, would outweigh the downside of the tripled service rating.

However, today I'm not so sure about that anymore.
Having experienced the challenges(?) of keeping Mavis and Emily squadrons operational, made me stand down on the decision, and give it a second thought.

So here I am, still undecided, but leaning towards "stick with the Val".
My concern is: Doubled payload <-> tripled service rating ... hmm.

Therefore I would like to hear you guys opinions (and/or experiences) on Val vs. Judy, in terms of performance vs. maintainability.
Should I upgrade?


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RE: Val - Judy: To upgrade or not to upgrade - 8/23/2012 9:22:59 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Atilla60

That's the question

PBEM - April 15. 1943

Way back when I made my initial planning for this game, I decided to upgrade from Val to Judy ASAP.
This based on the assumption that doubling the payload, while maintaining the range, would outweigh the downside of the tripled service rating.

However, today I'm not so sure about that anymore.
Having experienced the challenges(?) of keeping Mavis and Emily squadrons operational, made me stand down on the decision, and give it a second thought.

So here I am, still undecided, but leaning towards "stick with the Val".
My concern is: Doubled payload <-> tripled service rating ... hmm.

Therefore I would like to hear you guys opinions (and/or experiences) on Val vs. Judy, in terms of performance vs. maintainability.
Should I upgrade?



Yes.

While it's true that the maintenance headaches of the D4Y1 and D4Y2 are annoyances, the D4Y3 IIRC drops back to service rating of 1. In the meantime, you get a DB that is quite superior performance-wise to the D3 series.

Vals were approaching obsolescence when the war broke out historically. You don't want to limit your options by keeping these in service too long.

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RE: Val - Judy: To upgrade or not to upgrade - 8/23/2012 9:33:29 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		In a nutshell, the 250 kg bomb poses little threat to any Allied capital ship. With Allied damage control-even Allied carriers can shrug them off. So it is a no brainer.

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RE: Val - Judy: To upgrade or not to upgrade - 8/23/2012 9:33:51 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		JUDY! Can you say BIG BOMB? Yaaaaa. I thought could...


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RE: Val - Judy: To upgrade or not to upgrade - 8/23/2012 9:58:00 PM   
Dora09

 

Posts: 217
Joined: 1/11/2008
Status: offline
Judy all the way!

Actually the D4Y series is one of my favorites in the game. The high srvc rating doesn't seem to be that big of a draw back on CVs (I think I use the B5/B6Ns to naval search so that the Judys are only flying when they attack).

Also, I have found that they make exceptional kamikazes later on.

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Post #: 5
RE: Val - Judy: To upgrade or not to upgrade - 8/23/2012 10:51:31 PM   
SqzMyLemon


Posts: 4239
Joined: 10/30/2009
From: Alberta, Canada
Status: offline 		Judy for me too. At that stage of the war I'd want every bomb to count. 500kg all the way.

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RE: Val - Judy: To upgrade or not to upgrade - 8/23/2012 11:12:53 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		I'm six months ahead (late Oct 43) and I don't think I have a single DB group still with a Val at sea or land based. All have gone to Judy - increased range and payload.

< Message edited by ny59giants -- 8/23/2012 11:13:58 PM >

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RE: Val - Judy: To upgrade or not to upgrade - 8/23/2012 11:29:27 PM   
SuluSea


Posts: 2358
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline 		There's no question about getting all the D4Y1's you can and eliminate the D3A1/2's For my money the Judy beats it hands down with the only drawback as I see it being service rating but carrier engagements are usually a one day affair and one side is limping away.




< Message edited by SuluSea -- 8/24/2012 3:34:23 AM >

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RE: Val - Judy: To upgrade or not to upgrade - 8/23/2012 11:34:56 PM   
SuluSea


Posts: 2358
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline 		I compared it to the D3A1 because I believe it's the better of the two Val types.

The only reason I have any factories researching the D3A2 at all is to change it to the D5Y1 as soon as they repair.
The D5Y1 is scheduled to make an appearence 11/45 with two factories researching from around 6/42 you can really expedite the airframe at a relatively modest price .

I attached an image for comparison.



< Message edited by SuluSea -- 8/24/2012 3:36:56 AM >

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RE: Val - Judy: To upgrade or not to upgrade - 8/24/2012 12:00:25 AM   
FatR

 

Posts: 2522
Joined: 10/23/2009
From: St.Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline 		Even initially, high SR is not that much of a big deal on carriers. And for shore operations divebombers tend to lack range, until you get A7M, and you don't have that many land-based units of them in 1943, and most those are better dedicated to pilot training duties fulltime (to replenish carrier losses and prepare for later, when you do get A7M with its high range). In short, there is not a single real reason to keep D3A (except on training duty), and you need those 500-kg bombs to sink stuff. Even relatively fragile CVEs in my experience can take 2-4 250-kg ones and easily survive. And speed of D4Y also might very important for bombers, because, AFAIK, higher speed means that CAP gets less firing passes at your planes (but as D4Y will mostly fly from carriers with slower B6N, not as important as it could be). So, build D4Y.

< Message edited by FatR -- 8/24/2012 12:02:22 AM >

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RE: Val - Judy: To upgrade or not to upgrade - 8/24/2012 12:13:50 AM   
Crackaces


Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline 		This backs crsutton .. 3 250 kg bomb hits on the Big E .. she shrugs it off and will spend at most 30 days in the pen ...the IJ pilots encouter a practice in futility rather than sinking a USN CV .. Judy's would have at least cripped the BIG E for sure ..

Morning Air attack on TF, near Baker Island at 153,136

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 76 NM, estimated altitude 18,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 28 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 5
D3A1 Val x 22

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 14

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A1 Val: 5 destroyed, 5 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Enterprise, Bomb hits 3, on fire
DD Farragut


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RE: Val - Judy: To upgrade or not to upgrade - 8/24/2012 8:22:27 AM   
Atilla60


Posts: 69
Joined: 9/20/2006
From: Jutland, Denmark
Status: offline 		Thanks for the feedback guys. Lots of good stuff there.

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RE: Val - Judy: To upgrade or not to upgrade - 8/24/2012 8:45:29 AM   
Empire101


Posts: 1950
Joined: 5/20/2008
From: Coruscant
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

I compared it to the D3A1 because I believe it's the better of the two Val types.

The only reason I have any factories researching the D3A2 at all is to change it to the D5Y1 as soon as they repair.
The D5Y1 is scheduled to make an appearence 11/45 with two factories researching from around 6/42 you can really expedite the airframe at a relatively modest price .

I attached an image for comparison.





As I've always said, you learn something new every day on this forum.
I've always preferred using the D3A1 over the D3A2, simply because the range in the A2 is one hex less.
Not that important for land based aircraft, but of absolutely vital importance at sea. Range is everything, in my opinion.

As for the D5Y1, you have got to love that 800kg payload
Although it does have an Achilles heel. Its not CV capable??


< Message edited by Empire101 -- 8/24/2012 8:47:50 AM >

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RE: Val - Judy: To upgrade or not to upgrade - 8/24/2012 1:15:48 PM   
SuluSea


Posts: 2358
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline 		Hi Empire, the D4Y4 compares favorably to the D5Y1 and depending on the research it could possibly be on the map in early '44 because it's at the end of the Judy upgrade path.



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RE: Val - Judy: To upgrade or not to upgrade - 8/24/2012 3:03:40 PM   
d0mbo

 

Posts: 592
Joined: 8/21/2009
From: Holland
Status: offline 		Imagine DB's with 800KG bombs on your carriers*! Oh it's good to be a JFB :)



*slight drawback: your CV's most likely are sunk by this date.......
 

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Post #: 15
RE: Val - Judy: To upgrade or not to upgrade - 8/24/2012 5:46:30 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline 		Well all other things set aside, the Judy is the best of the lot due to its speed and the way this game handles air combat with the emphasis on airspeed.

Speed is life.

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RE: Val - Judy: To upgrade or not to upgrade - 8/24/2012 6:04:00 PM   
Empire101


Posts: 1950
Joined: 5/20/2008
From: Coruscant
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

Hi Empire, the D4Y4 compares favorably to the D5Y1 and depending on the research it could possibly be on the map in early '44 because it's at the end of the Judy upgrade path.




Man, that Judy sure packs a punch


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Post #: 17
RE: Val - Judy: To upgrade or not to upgrade - 8/25/2012 8:29:48 AM   
inqistor


Posts: 1813
Joined: 5/12/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

This backs crsutton .. 3 250 kg bomb hits on the Big E .. she shrugs it off and will spend at most 30 days in the pen ...the IJ pilots encouter a practice in futility rather than sinking a USN CV .. Judy's would have at least cripped the BIG E for sure ..

THREE? I had recently, in IRONMAN game, my US CV got THIRTEEN 250kg bombs, and was still able to launch strikes!

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Post #: 18
RE: Val - Judy: To upgrade or not to upgrade - 8/25/2012 12:57:02 PM   
koniu


Posts: 2763
Joined: 2/28/2011
From: Konin, Poland, European Union
Status: offline 		Judy is what reasonable Jap player want to have.

Rememberer `43 it will be more difficult everyday.

Better speed giving more chances to Judy to survive enemy CAP phase. Few planes that survive meeting with enemy fighters need give as many damage as possible t enemy and 500kg bomb will do that.

For me Judy is plane from "must have" category.

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RE: Val - Judy: To upgrade or not to upgrade - 8/25/2012 2:19:13 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		Judy.  SR only matters after a few days of op's.  MOST CV battles are decided on the first day.  Longer range and bigger bomb matter, SR is minor point.

PS: as pointed out above, the Val was obsolete in '41. Think Stuka ... too old, too slow, too short legged, and too little bomb.

< Message edited by PaxMondo -- 8/25/2012 2:20:58 PM >

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RE: Val - Judy: To upgrade or not to upgrade - 8/25/2012 3:26:38 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Judy.  SR only matters after a few days of op's.  MOST CV battles are decided on the first day.  Longer range and bigger bomb matter, SR is minor point.

PS: as pointed out above, the Val was obsolete in '41. Think Stuka ... too old, too slow, too short legged, and too little bomb.


Only the Stuka carried a 500kg (1100 lbs) bomb, making it slightly more useful if it actually made it to the target.

No doubt the Val was a good airplane when it first went into service, but was a deathtrap by mid '43.

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RE: Val - Judy: To upgrade or not to upgrade - 8/25/2012 4:11:26 PM   
FatR

 

Posts: 2522
Joined: 10/23/2009
From: St.Petersburg, Russia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Judy.  SR only matters after a few days of op's.  MOST CV battles are decided on the first day.  Longer range and bigger bomb matter, SR is minor point.

PS: as pointed out above, the Val was obsolete in '41. Think Stuka ... too old, too slow, too short legged, and too little bomb.

Speed and particularly range of D3A were good for 1941-42 (the game undersells it somewhat, IMO, or, rather, gives its SBD excessive normal range with its maximum payload). Its only major flaw was relatively light bombload (370kg max, 250 normal). Like many Japanese planes it suffered in 1943 and later from insufficient improvements to its engine and delays with mass production of its intended replacement (D4Y was supposed to enter production somewhere in late 1942, but only appeared in significant numbers during the Battle of Philippine Sea, AFAIK).

< Message edited by FatR -- 8/25/2012 10:54:05 PM >

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RE: Val - Judy: To upgrade or not to upgrade - 8/25/2012 4:18:19 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Judy.  SR only matters after a few days of op's.  MOST CV battles are decided on the first day.  Longer range and bigger bomb matter, SR is minor point.

PS: as pointed out above, the Val was obsolete in '41. Think Stuka ... too old, too slow, too short legged, and too little bomb.

+1 on the Val's vulneability. My CAP and AA [Marianas Scenario] shot them down in droves.
Judys - maybe a third as many for the same numbers attacking.

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RE: Val - Judy: To upgrade or not to upgrade - 8/25/2012 6:50:16 PM   
SuluSea


Posts: 2358
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline 		After thinking about it I think I'll make a change to my R&D and put the two factories earmarked for D3A2/D5Y1 upgrade into the DY4 program and get the D4Y4 a little bit earlier.


To quote Dombo--

quote:

Imagine DB's with 800KG bombs on your carriers*! Oh it's good to be a JFB :)



*slight drawback: your CV's most likely are sunk by this date.......


Yes it is!! HEHEHE

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RE: Val - Judy: To upgrade or not to upgrade - 8/25/2012 10:18:12 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Judy.  SR only matters after a few days of op's.  MOST CV battles are decided on the first day.  Longer range and bigger bomb matter, SR is minor point.

PS: as pointed out above, the Val was obsolete in '41. Think Stuka ... too old, too slow, too short legged, and too little bomb.


Only the Stuka carried a 500kg (1100 lbs) bomb, making it slightly more useful if it actually made it to the target.

I forgot that (about the Stuka). Had to go back to the flight manual. Balance had to be terrible with it though ...






Attachment (1)

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RE: Val - Judy: To upgrade or not to upgrade - 8/25/2012 10:18:17 PM   
Atilla60


Posts: 69
Joined: 9/20/2006
From: Jutland, Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

To quote Dombo--

quote:

Imagine DB's with 800KG bombs on your carriers*! Oh it's good to be a JFB :)



*slight drawback: your CV's most likely are sunk by this date.......


Yes it is!! HEHEHE


Technicality

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RE: Val - Judy: To upgrade or not to upgrade - 8/25/2012 10:27:38 PM   
Historiker


Posts: 4742
Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Deutschland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Judy.  SR only matters after a few days of op's.  MOST CV battles are decided on the first day.  Longer range and bigger bomb matter, SR is minor point.

PS: as pointed out above, the Val was obsolete in '41. Think Stuka ... too old, too slow, too short legged, and too little bomb.


Only the Stuka carried a 500kg (1100 lbs) bomb, making it slightly more useful if it actually made it to the target.

I forgot that (about the Stuka). Had to go back to the flight manual. Balance had to be terrible with it though ...






Just that your manual tells that one possible bombload was 1x1000kg bomb, even though it says "bombloads with 1000kg or 500kg have to be avoided if possible".

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RE: Val - Judy: To upgrade or not to upgrade - 8/26/2012 2:35:21 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker


Just that your manual tells that one possible bombload was 1x1000kg bomb, even though it says "bombloads with 1000kg or 500kg have to be avoided if possible".

I understood that, hence my comment that the balance had to be terrible. And no doubt shortened the range considerably. Still, the fact that they could get airborne with those loads ... pretty impressive.

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Post #: 28
RE: Val - Judy: To upgrade or not to upgrade - 8/26/2012 12:48:55 PM   
Historiker


Posts: 4742
Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Deutschland
Status: offline 		one 1.800kg bomb was also possible.

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Post #: 29
RE: Val - Judy: To upgrade or not to upgrade - 8/27/2012 4:14:26 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Judy.  SR only matters after a few days of op's.  MOST CV battles are decided on the first day.  Longer range and bigger bomb matter, SR is minor point.

PS: as pointed out above, the Val was obsolete in '41. Think Stuka ... too old, too slow, too short legged, and too little bomb.


Only the Stuka carried a 500kg (1100 lbs) bomb, making it slightly more useful if it actually made it to the target.

I forgot that (about the Stuka). Had to go back to the flight manual. Balance had to be terrible with it though ...







Being that the Stuka had all the characteristics of a flying brick to start with, would you really notice it that much?

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