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Atoll invasion [No Docup] - 8/26/2012 10:43:31 AM

koniu

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Joined: 2/28/2011
From: Konin, Poland, European Union
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I try to find this on forum but i cant

In my game with Docup I just land In Wotje trying to recapture it from USA.

Division that landed, shock attack on day one taking huge 90% loses but they manage to capture and hold beachhead on atoll.
I have another ID reedy to land tomorrow but i want to be sure that it will not trier another shock attack.

Does second day landing with reinforcements will force another shock attack or it is working like for river crossing - SCHOCK ATTACK FOR FIRS WAVE ONLY?

It looks like allied forces are also in mess so i willing to tray sending reinforcements but i am not willing tio risk another shosck attack

< Message edited by koniu -- 8/26/2012 10:44:48 AM >

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Post #: 1

RE: Atoll invasion [No Docup] - 8/26/2012 11:30:38 AM

koniu

Posts: 2763
Joined: 2/28/2011
From: Konin, Poland, European Union
Status: offline

I must ask what i have done wrong
I know i can use small tank units as support but island was after heavy bombardment, CD fire was very very small, and Div was 100% prepared. I must say loses during landing phase where smaller that i sometimes have when invasion bonus was online. Unit commander was not best one but also not worst one.

What happen with my troops Adjusted AV 0. Bad dice roll?????

Ground combat at Wotje (135,115)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 13196 troops, 126 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 453

Defending force 6616 troops, 73 guns, 228 vehicles, Assault Value = 189

Japanese adjusted assault: 0

Allied adjusted defense: 36

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 99 (fort level 2)

Combat modifiers
Defender: leaders(-), disruption(-), preparation(-), fatigue(-)
experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+), leaders(-), disruption(-)

Japanese ground losses:
6123 casualties reported
Squads: 384 destroyed, 71 disabled
Non Combat: 54 destroyed, 19 disabled
Engineers: 53 destroyed, 3 disabled
Guns lost 69 (63 destroyed, 6 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
93 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 16 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Vehicles lost 1 (1 destroyed, 0 disabled)

Assaulting units:
28th Division

Defending units:
138th(Sep) Infantry Regiment
640th Tank Destroyer Battalion
297th Infantry/ 1st Battalion
54th Coastal Artillery Regiment
220th USN Base Force

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Post #: 2

RE: Atoll invasion [No Docup] - 8/26/2012 12:01:26 PM

JocMeister

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Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
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I can�t really answer this but perhaps clues can be found in this?

Attacker: shock(+), leaders(-), disruption(-)

What was the disruption after the landing? I guess the leader (-) means the unit landed fragmented for some reason?

I don�t have a clue really so its just speculation from my part!

(in reply to koniu)

Post #: 3

RE: Atoll invasion [No Docup] - 8/26/2012 12:26:40 PM

koniu

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From: Konin, Poland, European Union
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disruption after battle is 87. So it is as should be after battle like that.

I am pretty sure that unit land in one part.
As for commander part. It is passable that medium skiled commander of that unit take some credit for that disaster but i still do not think we can blame him in 100% for that. IT was combination of that, bad dice rolls and good preperations of enemy.

Docup write me that he was preparing for that inwasion for almost month airlifting troops and supplies
I will fight. War will be long and i will lose more than that.

Now i need to decide to continue with second ID or safe what left from firs one and limit loses.

JocMeister do you have knowledge about shock attack if i have beached on Wotje?

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RE: Atoll invasion [No Docup] - 8/26/2012 12:39:51 PM

JocMeister

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quote:

ORIGINAL: koniu

JocMeister do you have knowledge about shock attack if i have beached on Wotje?

No, sorry!

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Post #: 5

RE: Atoll invasion [No Docup] - 8/26/2012 12:50:03 PM

Atilla60

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From: Jutland, Denmark
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@Koniu

Wotje, being an atoll means it has a stacking limit of 6000 men. None combat troops included.

You have 13000+ deployed on that rock, so your penalties for over stacking must be massive.
I would evac that division and come back with an invasion force designed for an Atoll.
For example a brigade sized unit (division attachment) + a batalion of combat engineers.

Whatever you do, don't land any more troops there.

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Post #: 6

RE: Atoll invasion [No Docup] - 8/26/2012 12:59:55 PM

koniu

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From: Konin, Poland, European Union
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Atilla60

@Koniu

Wotje, being an atoll means it has a stacking limit of 6000 men. None combat troops included.

You have 13000+ deployed on that rock, so your penalties for over stacking must be massive.
I would evac that division and come back with an invasion force designed for an Atoll.
For example a brigade sized unit (division attachment) + a batalion of combat engineers.

Whatever you do, don't land any more troops there.

Actually i have only 5679 soldiers on Wotje now

and 80% of them are second line troops

< Message edited by koniu -- 8/26/2012 1:01:08 PM >

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Post #: 7

RE: Atoll invasion [No Docup] - 8/26/2012 1:19:21 PM

Atilla60

Posts: 69
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From: Jutland, Denmark
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: koniu

quote:

ORIGINAL: Atilla60

@Koniu

Wotje, being an atoll means it has a stacking limit of 6000 men. None combat troops included.

You have 13000+ deployed on that rock, so your penalties for over stacking must be massive.
I would evac that division and come back with an invasion force designed for an Atoll.
For example a brigade sized unit (division attachment) + a batalion of combat engineers.

Whatever you do, don't land any more troops there.

Actually i have only 5679 soldiers on Wotje now and 80% of them are second line troops

Ouch

I didn't get to the causality report before I posted.

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-Sir Winston Churchill-

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Post #: 8

RE: Atoll invasion [No Docup] - 8/26/2012 4:04:15 PM

BBfanboy

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From: Winnipeg, MB
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The only thing I can think of is that you landed in a severe storm which caused massive disruption, although landing over twice the stacking limit likely caused some disruption too.
First landing on an atoll is always a shock attack. Once you have taken the atoll, I think additional troops can land without shock attacking because they can offload in port or over a secured beach. Then they can "march" [in the same hex] to where the enemy is holed up and make their attack.

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Post #: 9

RE: Atoll invasion [No Docup] - 8/26/2012 4:13:02 PM

btbw

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You dropped 13k troops on atoll with 6k limit. Overstacking increase supply usage by 233%. So you supply usage was 333%. But during unloading not all supply available to troops (only what they have with them + supply from support units) so in really troops was hardly lack of supplies. Also 28 ID lack of antitank guns so have low AV against Wolverine TD's present here. Summary it give dramatic loses during shock attack.
Best solution i think is try withdraw troops from atoll and better prepare assault here with continous bombardment/LBA attacks and blockade. After a few days try invade with best xp/morale LCUs with tank units. For prevent lack of supply from overstacking - add to invasion fleet more AK with supply (since troops unload first and only with little amount of supplies).
P.S. I think if you land another LCU then shock attack happen again.
P.P.S. Confirmed - i test invasion on Wake. Unloaded first LCU - shock attack. On second day unload second LCU - again shock attack.

< Message edited by btbw -- 8/26/2012 5:41:48 PM >

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Post #: 10

RE: Atoll invasion [No Docup] - 8/26/2012 6:48:35 PM

koniu

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From: Konin, Poland, European Union
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Thank allot.

I made decision next turn i will evacuate remnants of 28th ID and return home

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Post #: 11

RE: Atoll invasion [No Docup] - 8/26/2012 7:44:01 PM

Puhis

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I think there's absolutely no reason to waste infantry divisions trying to take back useless atols. You should be glad to see allies taking some remote atols instead of something that actually hurt...

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Post #: 12

RE: Atoll invasion [No Docup] - 8/26/2012 8:28:16 PM

koniu

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From: Konin, Poland, European Union
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

I think there's absolutely no reason to waste infantry divisions trying to take back useless atols. You should be glad to see allies taking some remote atols instead of something that actually hurt...

Maybe they are not much important but American presence on Marshals in `42 is not what i planed.

I am still willing to take them back but every day it will be difficult. If i not decide to land soon i will probably hold those units in preparation as fake intel. Time to back to naval blockade and maybe we will attrit his forces little. So far it was paying of.

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RE: Atoll invasion [No Docup] - 8/26/2012 9:40:54 PM

btbw

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Always use tank units for invasion atolls. Also massive ground bombing will reveal kind of enemy LCUs here.

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Post #: 14

RE: Atoll invasion [No Docup] - 8/27/2012 6:35:52 AM

Puhis

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From: Finland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: koniu

quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

I think there's absolutely no reason to waste infantry divisions trying to take back useless atols. You should be glad to see allies taking some remote atols instead of something that actually hurt...

Maybe they are not much important but American presence on Marshals in `42 is not what i planed.

I am still willing to take them back but every day it will be difficult. If i not decide to land soon i will probably hold those units in preparation as fake intel. Time to back to naval blockade and maybe we will attrit his forces little. So far it was paying of.

I see, if it's still 1942 I think you have a chance to get the atoll back.

I think there was two problems: defenders are very strong, and you had a way too many troops so overstacking penalty was severe.

If you have another division preparing Wotje, I think you should split the division and use two only sub-units, and keep 3rd as a reserve. Also one infanty brigade could be useful, if you have one available. Use ships that unload fast (japanese LSDs, APDs, AMCs or AKs) so that you also unload enough supplies before shock attack. Bombard heavily (both ships and air), because defenders are so strong that you have to get them disrupted and low on supply.

Or you can always let them rot there. Wotje have only small port and airfield, so that's not much of a threat. Is Wotje only atoll allies have?

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Post #: 15

RE: Atoll invasion [No Docup] - 8/27/2012 7:06:04 AM

jmalter

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amph assault vs. tiny atoll is v. difficult, you need best leaders & 100% prep, also you must organize the initial AmphTF w/ heavy force & bulk over-supply. another thing is time-related. for best results, have your AmphTF arrive at its target hex (w/ do not unload orders) or in an adjacent hex (w/ do not retire orders) one day before your planned assault day.

during the 'orders' segment of your assault day, switch your AmphTF to 'full speed' & 'unload allowed', also you must simultaneously unleash your BombardmentTF, and all your available air-attacks.

the idea is, to have enough time during the day, to unload as much as possible from your AmphTF during the Naval Movement phases of the assault-day. if you begin your assault from 3 hexes away, you can't unload as many troops as you can, if you begin from 0 or 1 hex away, because a portion of your available 'unload' capacity is reduced by the time it takes your ships to move to the target hex.

assault vs. an atoll will always be resolved as a 'shock attack', so you must ensure that you've given your AmphTF the maximum possible time to unload. also you must do your best to disrupt the defenders, w/ air & naval bombardment.

< Message edited by jmalter -- 8/27/2012 7:10:27 AM >

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Post #: 16

RE: Atoll invasion [No Docup] - 8/27/2012 7:24:20 AM

koniu

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From: Konin, Poland, European Union
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

Or you can always let them rot there. Wotje have only small port and airfield, so that's not much of a threat. Is Wotje only atoll allies have?

No. they have Wotje AF(LVL 3) and also Maloelap(AF lvl 4 currently).
But i keeping them damaged so they cant expand infrastructure on island or fly offensive mission. Only CAP.

When i spoke with Docup last day he told me that his combat troops where in good shape in day before landing but i make mess with his eng units. So if he telling true at lest he will have trouble repairing infrastructure on island.

< Message edited by koniu -- 8/27/2012 7:33:29 AM >

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Post #: 17

RE: Atoll invasion [No Docup] - 9/3/2012 2:32:04 PM

goran007

Posts: 143
Joined: 9/3/2009
From: croatia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: koniu

I must ask what i have done wrong
I know i can use small tank units as support but island was after heavy bombardment, CD fire was very very small, and Div was 100% prepared. I must say loses during landing phase where smaller that i sometimes have when invasion bonus was online. Unit commander was not best one but also not worst one.

What happen with my troops Adjusted AV 0. Bad dice roll?????

Ground combat at Wotje (135,115)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 13196 troops, 126 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 453

Defending force 6616 troops, 73 guns, 228 vehicles, Assault Value = 189

Japanese adjusted assault: 0

Allied adjusted defense: 36

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 99 (fort level 2)

Combat modifiers
Defender: leaders(-), disruption(-), preparation(-), fatigue(-)
experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+), leaders(-), disruption(-)

Japanese ground losses:
6123 casualties reported
Squads: 384 destroyed, 71 disabled
Non Combat: 54 destroyed, 19 disabled
Engineers: 53 destroyed, 3 disabled
Guns lost 69 (63 destroyed, 6 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
93 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 16 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Vehicles lost 1 (1 destroyed, 0 disabled)

Assaulting units:
28th Division

Defending units:
138th(Sep) Infantry Regiment
640th Tank Destroyer Battalion
297th Infantry/ 1st Battalion
54th Coastal Artillery Regiment
220th USN Base Force

Ignore overstacking and aim on capturing atol on first shock attack.
Land 3 divisions, 2 tank brigades, HQ, 2 artillery units and some engineers.
One dedicated convoy of 50k supply needs to unload on same turn with combat troops.

Considering defender adjusted AV was only 36 you did fine job bombing them, so you could try with only 2 divisions, but more AV the better.

(in reply to koniu)

Post #: 18

RE: Atoll invasion [No Docup] - 9/3/2012 5:26:43 PM

crsutton

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From: Maryland
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There are many possible explainations for your failure. One could simply be a very bad die roll.

Two things.

What is the date? If you are landing Japanese troops on an atoll after the invasion bonus expired then you have a problem. I think it would be almost impossible to pull of unless the enemy were totally disrupted and out of supply.

Two, you threw a Japanese div into a beach shock assualt vs an enemy tank unit. Devices mean a lot and to assault tanks with a unit that has very little AT assets is a recipie for disaster-in any sort of attack anywhere. Just open up the editor and look at the AT value of an individual Japanese squad in 1942. It is pretty sad. And the 37mm AT gun would be useless vs an M10 as well. Tanks matter! Don't forget this.

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Post #: 19