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- 12/10/2002 12:48:49 PM   
BryanMelvin

 

Posts: 1555
Joined: 7/28/2000
From: Colorado, USA
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The Russian offensive along the North part of the narrow corridor to Stalingrad was a disater for the Soviets. They used many lend lease tanks. The Germans just picked these off. Sometimes, German units ran out of ammo and had to move back so that the German air force could finish off the Russian's that survived.

The Steppe was littered with burning hulks of lend lease armor as well as Russian armor and still the Russian's attacked and attacked to no avail...

This battle tries to simulate this..

Now it will get more difficult :eek:

Hill 102 awaits :eek: :eek:

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Post #: 31
- 12/10/2002 9:25:54 PM   
Alexandra


Posts: 546
Joined: 12/7/2000
From: USA
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Bring on the Hill!

I have some tricks planned for the defenders - and I think a lot of you will be suprised at how Alex steps outside her normal box here :)

Mwahahahah :)

Alex

_____________________________

"Tonight a dynasty is born." Ricky Proehl, then of the Saint Louis Rams. He was right! Go Pats! Winners of Super Bowls 36, 38 and 39.

(in reply to Alexandra)
Post #: 32
- 12/11/2002 6:30:04 AM   
Ezikel

 

Posts: 52
Joined: 10/21/2002
From: B'ham, England
Status: offline
You could show them your short n curlys.... Braveheart style ^^

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is to stone anyone until I blow this whistle! Do you understand?! Even,
and I want to make this absolutely clear, even if they do say 'Jehovah'.
CROWD: Ooooooh!...

(in reply to Alexandra)
Post #: 33
- 12/13/2002 8:31:46 PM   
Alexandra


Posts: 546
Joined: 12/7/2000
From: USA
Status: offline
Kill Leaders:

Sgt Krafft, Flampanzer II (29),
Sgt Langkeit, Flampanzer II (24)
2Lt Metzger, FlakPz Plt Ldr (21)

Mission Nine:

Date: September 14, 1942
Time: 0900
Location: Mamayev Kurgan Hill, Stalingrad

Mission: We are ordered to support the 295th Infantry by taking Mamayev Kurgan Hill

Support: 2 Btns 150mm OBA, 9 gliders

Aux Forces: FO, 1 Flight Stuka, 4 Pz IV, 2 Rifle Companies, 2 Engineer Platoons, 2 Support Platoons, 1 Bty 105, 1 Bty 150

The Map: The map is dominated by the hill, which is, a hill. To the north and south of the hill are rows of houses, to the west open terrain and to the east the Lazur chemical plant. There are nine VHs. Three on the north side of the hill, two on the crest, one on the southwest side, two to the southwest of the hill and one south of the hill.

The Plan: Multi directonal assault! Spec Ops will infiltrate to the south to take the VH south of the hill. Aux Infantry will make the attack from the north, to take north slope. My panzers and some SS and Aux infantry will come in from the west - and as many of my SS as can be fit into them will glider land atop the hill one Turn 1 after a massive bombardment of the hill. I may even see if I can get Flampanzers into gliders!

Glider notes: Looks like all of one squad each. So All of 1st platoon and part of 2nd will go in that way. Looks like 8 squads and 2 MG teams. Not bad. Wish they were British gliders though :)

Pregame: Bombardment and all landings go well.

Turn One:

The attack begins! To the north infantry advances, no contact. They are backed by 2 Mk IVs and my flampanzers. To the east we advance as well, and, again, no contact. On the hill Gruppe Porsche, named for the first platoon leader, gets to work. They knock out a 76.2mm ATG, and a pillbox. They also get an enemy FO team. The enemy is stunned and does not react, and a Stuka takes out an AAMG position. The top of the hill VH is taken.

Turn Two:

To the north, our forces start to come out of the housing area and engage an ATG. To the west we advance and Flak Pz long range fire supports the north attack. On the hill, we start to expand the bridgehead, engaging as we go. The enemy HQ is located and brought under fire.

Turn Three:

To the north, the attack gets near the hill as more and more men emerge from the housing area. To the west we lose a man to a mine, and a few more to a MG nest south of us. We'll smoke the nest, so, ignore it for now. On the hill we move carefully, and take another hilltop VH.

Turn Four:

On the north, we knock out a log rifle pit and polish an ATG. On the west, we establish contact with an enemy platoon strength postion on the lower southwest side of the hill. We also take out a pair of ATR teams. On the hill, one detachment starts to support the north attack by shooting enemy infantry from behind, one starts south, to engage AA positions, and another moves west, killing the enemy HQ and heading towards some mortars.

Turn Five:

No sign of the Brandenburgers yet. Even if none of them arrive, though, we'll be ok. To the north, we keep advancing and drive a squad back. To the west, we start to find and engage enemy squad size positions. Two squads are driven back. On the hill, we keep engaging infantry to help the north advance, as well as secure the last hilltop VH.

Turn Six:

We push in on the north, finding more enemy and knocking out an ATR and polishing a squad. We also take a VH. We push in, slowly, from the west, knocking out 2 squads, though both had been reduced in strength. We knock out a log rifle pit with panzer fire. The hill force knocks out an AA gun and an ATR.

Turn Seven:

Team Schirmer arrives. Along the north, we kill off three squads and lose a Mk IV. More enemy positions found. We push in from the west and along the way kill 2 squads and take a VH. We are, though, hitting layed enemy infantry. We take another VH on the hill, on the south, and KO an AA gun. Two ATR teams die on the east side of the hill.

Turn Eight:

Along the north we deal with infantry. 2 ATR teams and 2 squads are destroyed. It seems enemy infantry is moving in from the northeast, so we may have to deal with a counterattack from that direction. On the west we slowly push them back and have both west VHs, though it looks as if enemy infantry may be coming in from the south as well. On the east, we take out a 50mm mortar squad. ** The enemy attacks. Infantry only, and, I think, for the most part, squads I just never found earlier. We lose a squad on the southwest side of the hill.

Turn Nine:

Along the north, we take out a squad, a MG team and a 45mm ATG. An enemy platoon is crossing a hilly ridge, but I hope to slow them with arty. On the west we advance, knocking out a bunker and a squad while pivoting to deny the south west flank. Lt Metzger's FlakPz dies to a mine, but 9 of the 21 man crew live. *** They keep countering, but only manage to lose a FO.

Turn Ten:

Along the north, we take out an ATR team, a MG team, a squad and a bunker, and blunt the counterattack. Along the west, we advance carefully and knock out a MG team and finish off a pair of squads. We engage an ATG and find a pillbox. Along the south, the Spec Ops team takes the next to last VH and a squad is sent to deal with the pillbox. It finds another along the way, so will need to kill 2 of them. We also get an ATR team. Two 82mm mortars are spiked along the west. *** Then disaster. At least 4 Platoons of Guard Infantry appear on the hill. Right at the crest. A hill we've held for an hour nearly. Did they walk up the hill? No. They just were beamed in. As a result, I lose 1st and 2nd Plt MG teams, 1st Plt HQ and 4th Sqd, and 2nd Plt, 2nd Sqd. Elsewhere on the field, we polish off two squads. I want to stress I have no problems with the reinforcements, or the numbers. My problem is that 200 or so men just appeared, in clear terrain, over a hill we held for nearly an hour. Make them make the approach route instead of just appearing.

Turn Eleven:

Let's see what we can salvage. Along the north, we kill five squads. Along the west we move in, heading for the crest and get an ATG and a pillbox as well as a squad. *** They attack, and finish off a core engineer squad and we kill a squad. SFMB.

Turn Twelve:

We attack in the north and sweep over the ridge. Six squads fall, and 16 prisoners are taken. Aid is moving in from the West, too, and we knock out a pillbox and a squad. *** They lose a squad in the counterattack. SFMB.

Turn Thirteen:

The fight contiunues along the north and west side of the hill. We knock out three squads and take the ridgeline. Two thirds of the hilltop is in thier hands.

Turn Fourteen:

We continue to attack. Five squads go down and five more prisoners are taken. The mop up is going well, though too many of our SS comrades were killed before it could begin. They still hold the center and south hill VHs. SFMB.

Turn Fifteen:

We push forward, trying to finish them and take this hill. We knock out three squads and take the south hill VH. However, there we lose a Mk IV to a molotov projector, and a Flakz to a Light Machine Gun! And, the crew of another FlakPz bails from Rifle fire! *** They lose a squad counterattacking, and it looks like they lose another in an AI initiated melee. SFMB.

Turn Sixteen:

We knock out another squad and take the last VH, but they get 1st Platoon, 2nd Squad as it tries to fall back. They lose a squad in thier turn and then they withdraw, The hill is mine.

Pow: 22 (36 on the campaign)

Result: German MV 6506 to 1447.

German Losses: 251 men, 4 AFV.
Soviet Losses: 805 men, 26 arty.

Comments: Overall, I liked the scen. Force structures were good, the map was good, balance was good. What I disliked was the 12 to 16 squads of beamed in infantry. There were just too many to reasonably assume they were guys who'd hidden and rallied and attacked. Make them make the approach route, or use fewer.

Between scens: Replacement. All fixed, except the one FlakPz

Next Scen: We've been attached to 71st Infantry Division and orders to take the Stalingrad train station and Red Square.

Alex

_____________________________

"Tonight a dynasty is born." Ricky Proehl, then of the Saint Louis Rams. He was right! Go Pats! Winners of Super Bowls 36, 38 and 39.

(in reply to Alexandra)
Post #: 34
- 12/14/2002 7:54:54 AM   
Grenadier


Posts: 981
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From: Newport Beach, CA USA
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The sudden appearance of the Guards was to emulate the arrival of Rodmitsev's 13 Guards Division 51 Guards Regiment which reinforced the defenders of the crest. A conventional attack would have timed so that by the time the German assault reached the top so would the Guardsmen, creating a see saw battle for the top. Your tactic of a glider landing is unusual, to say the least;)

Bryan and I did not take into consideration someone trying a glider landing when we redid the campaign, but using a more conventioal prepared assault up yhe hill. To have had the guardsmen approach from the Volga risked detection by aircraft and Rodmitsev's men came up through the sewerlines, undectected by the Germans until they reached the top so that is how they beamed in:D

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Brent Grenadier Richards




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Post #: 35
- 12/14/2002 8:26:52 AM   
Major Destruction


Posts: 881
Joined: 8/10/2000
From: Canada
Status: offline
Actually those guardsmen had buried themselves in a graveyard, as yet unmarked on the map, then appeared, ghoulishly, out of the graves to assault those paratroops in a very paranormal manner.

Not at all unreasonable in light of the Player's unconventional assault technique!:p

_____________________________

They struggled with a ferocity that was to be expected of brave men fighting with forlorn hope against an enemy who had the advantage of position......knowing that courage was the one thing that would save them.

Julius Caesar, 57 BC

(in reply to Alexandra)
Post #: 36
- 12/14/2002 10:09:48 AM   
Alexandra


Posts: 546
Joined: 12/7/2000
From: USA
Status: offline
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Grenadier
[B]The sudden appearance of the Guards was to emulate the arrival of Rodmitsev's 13 Guards Division 51 Guards Regiment which reinforced the defenders of the crest. A conventional attack would have timed so that by the time the German assault reached the top so would the Guardsmen, creating a see saw battle for the top. Your tactic of a glider landing is unusual, to say the least;)

Bryan and I did not take into consideration someone trying a glider landing when we redid the campaign, but using a more conventioal prepared assault up yhe hill. To have had the guardsmen approach from the Volga risked detection by aircraft and Rodmitsev's men came up through the sewerlines, undectected by the Germans until they reached the top so that is how they beamed in:D [/B][/QUOTE]


Lol! Told 'ya I was gonna step outside the box :) Too bad the gliders weren't bigger. The force landed was able to do a lot to smooth the assault, but I doubt I'd do that again. It was fun once, though.

Now, if I had FJs, seeing how cheap the plane sections are for them, heh :)

I can accept the sewer line explaination quite readily, and, in the end, the beaming only hurt them. They did so well with suprinse that they took out all the SS left on the crest - and so I hit them with all my 105s and 150s!! and then mopped them up.

Still, the infantry losses hurt, but I took the hill.

I'll be offline till next week, so, when I get back, expect the Train Station report - I remember that one from last time!

Alex

_____________________________

"Tonight a dynasty is born." Ricky Proehl, then of the Saint Louis Rams. He was right! Go Pats! Winners of Super Bowls 36, 38 and 39.

(in reply to Alexandra)
Post #: 37
- 12/14/2002 1:13:58 PM   
BryanMelvin

 

Posts: 1555
Joined: 7/28/2000
From: Colorado, USA
Status: offline
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Alexandra
[B]


Turn Ten:

*** Then disaster. At least 4 Platoons of Guard Infantry appear on the hill. Right at the crest. A hill we've held for an hour nearly. Did they walk up the hill? No. They just were beamed in. As a result, I lose 1st and 2nd Plt MG teams, 1st Plt HQ and 4th Sqd, and 2nd Plt, 2nd Sqd. Elsewhere on the field, we polish off two squads. I want to stress I have no problems with the reinforcements, or the numbers. My problem is that 200 or so men just appeared, in clear terrain, over a hill we held for nearly an hour. Make them make the approach route instead of just appearing.


Alex [/B][/QUOTE]

Just a note - the hill had deep bunkers located in the rugged eastern Washes. The guardsmen used the Washes to advance up the hill - unspotted by the Germans. When the Guards attack began, the Russian units inside the bunkers joined the fray (most at pistol point). This attack took the Germans by surprise as the Russains seemed to appear out of the ground - around them. In air photo of hill (which map was made from) the deep rugged eastern Washes are very deep and offer ample concelment. Looking at the photo you can see that was best venue for an attack. I can imagine, in the heat of battle, German infantry looking at these Washes, and saying something like this "Ivan cannot advance up these-they are way too steep and rugged!" then....

I hope this battle gives the same shock to a player as it did to the real German commanders that day ;)

Despite an airborne assault!

PS--
I wanted to add this type of info in text but that would have given the battle away :D

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Post #: 38
- 12/19/2002 10:33:20 PM   
Alexandra


Posts: 546
Joined: 12/7/2000
From: USA
Status: offline
Kill Leaders:

Sgt Krafft, Flampanzer II (33),
Sgt Langkeit, Flampanzer II (29)
2Lt Becker, Flampanzer Plt Ldr (24)

Mission Ten:

Date: September 16, 1942
Time: 1000
Location: Stalingrad

Mission: We've been attached to 71st Infantry Division and orders to take the Stalingrad train station and Red Square.

Support: 1 Engineer Company

Aux Forces: 6 rifle platoons, 1 recon platoon, 1 support platoon, 2 engineer platoons, 2 105 btry, 1 150 btry, 1 FO, 2 Spec Ops platoons, 2 MG 42 teams, 2 rifle companies, 11 panzers

The Map: It's urban, natch with a mix of wooden houses, and stone public buildings. We have to take train station #1. In addition, we have to take the 9th of January Square, Lenin Square, a pair of hills overlooking the Volga, Red Squre, the Univermag store, Gorki Theater, a nail factory and a couple buildings past the station.

The Plan: Urban Assasult. Find, pin, kill, advance. All nine spec ops squads will try and infiltrate.

Turn One:

We have two main groups, north and west. Both will move east, towards the Volga. North makes contact with enemy squads, a trio of them. It's initial objective is 9 January Square. West moves towards the station. We destroy a train engine and a bus, and kill a squad, but lose a Mk III.

Turn Two:

Group north kills all 3 squads it found last turn and finds two more. Group west takes out 2 flat cars, a tanker car, 2 boxcars, a squad and a MG squad. We lose a squad.

Turn Three:

Team Schirmer arrives. Group north advances steadly. It kills 3 squads, 2 ATR squads, an a 50mm mortar team. Group west also advances, driving the enemy back. 2 flat cars and a box car are destroyed and 2 squads are killed. The marshaling yard is in our hands. We lose an MG42. *** 4 Assault teams pop in. They are squads who tended to be trained to hide out and then attack from the back. They knock out an MG34.

Turn Four:

An attached Spec Ops team arrives. North continues to advance and kills off a squad. I have two engineer platoons between the two groups and one of them bags an ATR squad. We keep up the pressure at the station, and knock out a boxcar, as well as kill 3 squads and 3 of the assault teams. South of the station, we burn out a squad. *** Enemy assault teams take back a marshalling yard VH.

Turn Five:

Group north moves on, eliminating 4 squads and reaching the outskirts of 9 January Square. Group west kills a 45mm ATG north of the station. In the station area, the fighting is heavy and urban. We knock out a tanker car and kill a squad and an assault team and take back the VH, while losing a Mk III and a 50mm mortar. Part of the station, along it's north side, is in our hands. South of the station, we lose Sgt Eberbach's Mk IV to mines while we kill 2 more squads. *** We lose Team Schirmer, and a marshalling VH is lost to an assault team, even though there is one of my units in the hex.



Turn Six:

2 spec ops teams arrive. North kills an ATR squad and loses a scout team. West we lose a Mk III to mines. Infantry losses are high on both sides. We lose a scout team and a squad, they lose 2 squads, a MG squad and an assault team. We retake the VH again. South of the station, we kill a MG squad and a rifle squad - and then lose Sgt Langkeit to mines. This has me ripped. Not only is he lost to mines in a handtop road hex - kinda hard to bury them there! - but not 1 - not 1!! of the 40! Infantry that walked through the hex happened to notice that they were stepping around anti tank mines?????? The spec ops teams take Gorki Theater. **** They lose an assault team and we lose a squad.

Turn Seven:

Team Conkling arrives. North slowly, and effectively advances. Panzer fire knocks out a strongpoint at Pavlov's House and 5 enemy squads fall. Team Conkling takes a volga hill. Other spec ops take the VH in Red Square, for the moment. West takes out a MG squad and 3 squads while losing a recon team. An enemy assault team surrenders, giving us 4 PoWs. But, we lose a Mk IV to a strongpoint in the Nail Factory and Sgt Kessler to mines. I am now totally sick the inability of Infantry to see AT Mines on concrete roads. *** They take back the Red Square VH and killed the team, or what was left of it there, as I expected them to. Three more assault teams show up.



Turn Eight:

Another Spec Ops team arrives. North advances into 9 January Square, coming under fire from a HMG and a Maxim in Pavlov's House. A bunker is killed. West kills 4 squads (taking five prisoners), and a Maxim squad and loses a MG team to, yes, mines. What I thought last turn were more assault teams were just 'normal' guard squads and all have been killed. *** The enemy is agressively counterattacking, but all it does is get him two more dead squads.

Turn Nine:

North advances on. A force is shifted to move towards Lenin Square as the VH in 9 Jan falls. The maxim in Pavlov's House is eliminated as is a 45mm ATG. Team Conkling takes the other Volga Hill VH. My two engineer platoons in the middle are starting to be a factor, with one coming towards Lenin Square from the west, and the other towards the Univermag from the north. On the West, we take out 3 squads and a MG nest. The Station is in our hands.

Turn Ten:

The fighting in the north area slows, as we work on taking out some annoying guns on the perimeter of the square. On the west, we eliminate 2 squads and a MG nest. *** The enemy counterattack hard from the Nail factory towards the station, and at the admin buildings and station itself. We lose a squad, as do they. They also lose a MG squad.

Turn Eleven:

We finish a 45mm ATG to the north, but the first of the between group Engineer platoons loses a squad. The second of them also loses a squad, though Heer help is coming in. To the west, we finish off a pair of squads. *** Agressive enemy attacks cost them 3 squads and a molotov projector team. SFMB.

Turn Twelve:

Group north knocks out a pair of MG postions, and pushes towards Lenin Square. Two enemy squads go down, but, so does a German one, and a Mk III gets tagged by a 45mm ATG in the library. We kill a squad in the center of the city, as we push towards the Univermag. A flampanzer knocks out a MG bunker at the Gorki Theater and we get another on the edge of Red Square the same way. That will open up our flank attack on the Nail Factory. We then drive into that factory, killing a squad as we do. *** The enemy retakes a Volga Hill VH. The Spec Ops team there will have to hold until help - which is on the way - arrives.

Turn Thirteen:

To the north we take out a squad and a MG nest. In the center, we kill a squad near the Gorki, but lose a Spec Ops Squad at the Univermag. Another enemy squad dies as we take the Nail Factory. *** The enemy loses a squad counterattacking at the Station.

Turn Fourteen:

We kill the Library ATG. We then take out a Bunker and a squad near the Nail Factory.

Turn Fifteen:

Swirling fighting across Lenin Square as we push the enemy back. We kill a squad on the appraoches to the Univermag. We kill a squad near the station as well. *** They lose 3 squads counterattacking, though they now have both Hill VHs as I pulled Team Conkling back.

Turn Sixteen:

In Lenin Square, we knock out a pillbox and an ATG and take the VH. We kill a bus and an FO team north of Univermag. We mop up two other squads and take both Admin buildings. *** Three more enemy squads fall in counterattacks. SFMB.

Turn Seventeen:

We lose a squad, and they lose two, in fighting on the south side of Lenin Square. We lose a squad in the 'mag, and Lt Becker to an ATG. Now, I wanna talk about this ATG - in case anyone from Matrix is reading. This gun fired, over the course of my turn 8 shots over a 240 degree arc, at 5 different units, even though it's dug into a stone building and was under direct infantry fire at less than 50 meters range. Something really needs to be done about dancing guns and tanks, as, by letting them shift facing radically the entire concept of flanking and knocking out - which is the correct historical way to deal with them - does not work. If it can't be fixed in SP:WaW, it really needs to be in CL. *** They lose a squad and we lose an MG42 team during enemy counterattacks.

Turn Eighteen:

We kill 2 squads and the ATG! *** They lose 1 in a counterattack. SFMB.

Turn Nineteen:

We take Red Square. Only the hills are in the enemies hands.

Turn Twenty:

We lose a squad at the 'mag, but kill one on the hill. *** We lose another at the 'mag.

Turn Twentyone:

We shove the last enemy squad out of the 'mag, losing 3 more in the process. Again, a unit is able to fight in 4 directions without any loss of firepower whatsoever. We then kill 3 squads on the hill and take back a VH. *** Enemy loses 2 countering.

Turn Twentytwo:

We take the last VH back. We lose one to enemy counters.

Turn Twentythree:

They lose two countering.

And we get a Draw!!! 9206 to 4074. This is very disaapointing, for two reasons. One, I did better then my historical counterpart. He failed to reach the Volga, while I made it there, and in strength. Second, I took Pavlov's House, which if I recall right never fell historically, and should have been a VH.

German losses: 536 men, 10 AFV.
Soviet Losses: 1473 men, 19 guns, 2 APC, 9 AFV.

PoW: 5 (41 on the campaign)

I guess the busses were 'APCs' and the train cars 'AFVs'

All he had lef on the field were 2 squads, a rifle pit, and an ATR team. Bah! Should be at least an MV.

Between scens: We get one flampanzer back. We are down 2 Mk IVs, a flampanzer, and a flakpanzer.

Next mission: The Grain Silo.

Alex

_____________________________

"Tonight a dynasty is born." Ricky Proehl, then of the Saint Louis Rams. He was right! Go Pats! Winners of Super Bowls 36, 38 and 39.

(in reply to Alexandra)
Post #: 39
- 12/19/2002 11:49:43 PM   
Grenadier


Posts: 981
Joined: 5/10/2000
From: Newport Beach, CA USA
Status: offline
Alex, how could you? You went about destroying my 'eye candy" trains and busses. They were only worth one point each and if you wait long enough the crews abandon them for easy pickings:D

Most of the VO's in the train station are point per turn and this reflects the see-saw nature of the fighting here. The AI is set to respond only after they are discovered. None of the reinforcement hexes are set next to a VO. They are all at least 2 hexes away and 2 are over 5 hexes away. Actually the 71 Infantry did get a batalllion under Capt Meunch to the Volga that same day but it was cut off by furious counterattacks and Pavlov's House was reoccupied by SGT Pavlov at the end of the month where he held on for most of October. German losses were very high on the 14th and your score reflects this. You did a great job so don't be so hard on yourself. The best I ever got was a draw after I redesigned the original with one exception.

Look at the mines that took out your tanks like the NKVD men who hid in the tall buildings and then dropped Molotovs on the rear decks of the tanks after the infantry had passed through or like the remote controlled mines placed in the barricades the tanks crashed through. A lot of the conditions in the battle have to be abstracted in the game. Many of the tricks I placed in Lost Victories, especially in the Crimea, are also being used here.

I did the redesign of the city and factory battles and the added city and factory battles so from this point I am the target of your comments:)

If you want to know the best way to play this for a marginal victory, e-mail me

_____________________________

Brent Grenadier Richards




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(in reply to Alexandra)
Post #: 40
CL will address alot of these gripes! - 12/20/2002 12:49:03 AM   
Paul Vebber


Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
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[QUOTE]"But, we lose a Mk IV to a strongpoint in the Nail Factory and Sgt Kessler to mines. I am now totally sick the inability of Infantry to see AT Mines on concrete roads. *** "[/QUOTE]

They need to move the road kill out of the way covering it up!:p

I think we can link the ability to spot mines to the "firmness" of the ground so they are easy to spot on pavement.

The popping up next to a victory - well that is a scenario design issue...If it hurts - don;t do that! Unless you want to "guarentee surprise". The changes to infantry firepower will radically change the game in this regard becasue for the most part you don't "shoot a unt" but allocate fire to a hex (or hexes). Residual firepoweer like in ASL will remain in a hex so you can't take advantage of the IGO-HUGO nature of the game by moving one unit forward, letting it get toasted, and then moving the "good unit" up - or another, etc. until the enemy cries uncle and declares that no more firing will occur and they will just let you assult them.

You have to come from multiple directions (multiple hexes) now to do that, since any "folllow-up" units entering the hex that gets shot at first, will suffer a "residual firepower" attack, since they can't just wait until the firt unit and the defenders "turn is over" and then in efect "start a new turn" with the defender already out of shots.

THis will also prevent the need for "special opfire" except in rare cases. I already explained somewhere the new way "shots for guns and tanks is determined - theoretical sustained rate of fire - so in a 50m game a Sherman capable of 8 rpm and a veteran crew might have a base of nearly 40 shots, but only a portion of those do you have "tactical control" over (ie you get to shoot when you activate a formation) based on stance, the rest are used to opfire (which you have much more control over in CL). The number of "shot opportunities" that a given "shot" costs in variable, its close to 1 if you are firing successive shots at the same immobile target, shifting targets in close proximity costs a bit more. But if you start to turn the turret a lot, or it moves, or the taget is moving across the LOS (based on target angle unfortunately, but better than nothing) you lose shots based on turret traverse rate, and your commanders armor skill and your stance.

IF the Sherman above tries to shoot ahead, then swing the turret 180, then swing back, it would likely only be able to do that 4 or 5 times before its out of shots. At the 15m scale the turns are only one third as long so 'shots' are 1/3 as many or 1 and MAYBE two... (the time per turn in CL is a bit longer than in SP - 15m scale s about 1.5 min per turn and 50m is 4.5 min per turn - that is what movement points are based on.

AT guns are even more restricted in firing outside covered arc unless on a turntable (then they are darn near immobile). In a 15m game a poorer crew may not get a shot at all if they try to fire 180 out of covered arc. We've tried to link the time, movement and shots much more closely. That and the "alternating formation activation" sequence allows for a much more "interleaved" turn and a significant reduction in "gamey" situations where you take advantageof teh fact the other guy is "frozen" the whole time you move your men...oh and there is a possibility of "opmovement" as well as opfire, so if you do "go first" and try to catch a formation "frozen" it may get to move a hex after you shoot at it...

I think we will have most of this covered...but feel free to drop by the CL forum and gripe about other thiings that frustrate you!

(in reply to Alexandra)
Post #: 41
- 12/20/2002 10:01:54 PM   
Alexandra


Posts: 546
Joined: 12/7/2000
From: USA
Status: offline
Kill Leaders:

Sgt Krafft, Flampanzer II (40),
Sgt Langkeit, Flampanzer II (29)
2Lt Metzger, FlakPz Plt Ldr (21)

Yes, Krafft himself lived. He musta seen the AT mines on the road that the 40 infantry missed seeing and jumped out of the tank!

Mission Eleven:

Date: September 18, 1942
Time: 1400
Location: Stalingrad

Mission: The Grain Silo. Apparently, my SS task force is now working for Wonder :) We need to have the grain to make the bread :)

Support: 1 Scout platoon.

Aux Forces: 1 sniper

The Map: Mostly urban, with a mix of wood and stone builidings. 7 VHs. The Silo, a road hex west of it. (Why not the intersection one hex to the NE of that hex?), two other stone buildings, a patch of grass of the west of everything. (Why that hex? What makes that hex of grass special?), a triangular stone building south of the silo and a road leading to other parts of the city.

The Plan: I have to be careful. The VHs are way undervalued, at a total of 400 points for all 7. That means ya can't lose nothing! So, sneak, peak, and be careful. Each platoon will move in on an different axes, with 1 Flam, 1 Flak, 1 Stug, and 1 Mk IV for support. As I have just 2 Mk IVs, 2nd Platoon gets the Spec Ops as well.

Turn One:

First makes contact with 2 squads. 2nd makes contact with 4 more, plus an ATR and 2 MG squads. 3rd finds a MG nest which Krafft flames. Mortars called in, as they will be each turn.

Turn Two:

1st gets a squad and a MG team and drives back another squad. 2nd gets a squad but is facing a wall of defenders. 3rd Platoon has a very close call. Scouts discover a MG team, so Krafft rolls up to flame in, and, instead of shooting he rolls into the hex even though the shift key is not held down!! He survives, though, and rolls out, and flames out 2 NKVD squads, while crushing the MG under his treads! They also get a 5 man enemy sniper team.

Turn Three:

1st gets a Squad and Lt Kortenhuas' Stug gets stuck on a trail! Lol! 2nd gets an ATR team, a MG team and a squad and drives a MG and squad back. They take 2 VHs. 3rd gets a MG nest. *** Enemy platoon advance towards 3rds sector. They get the sniper. Sgt Albrecht and his FlakPz are killed by a pop up squad.

And that's scen. Almost assured a draw with a loss of a Panzer. And it's poor design. You *cannot* use ambush teams that pop up in the rear when you choose to make 7 VHs worth a total of 400 points. Especially given that the game engine does not recognize that pop up as movement! As the attack came from a road hex, I'll assume the sappers came from the sewers - and, in effect, none of the 10 man crew of the Flakpz noticed that and swing the quad 20mm cannon around to deal with it. Pop up are cool, when the VP total from VHs allows a casualty budget. When it does not - a design decision - then, the equal decision to not use them must be made.

Turn Four:

1st gets a MG nest and a squad. 2nd gets a MG team and a squad and takes the silo VH. 3rd takes the triangle VH

Turn Five:

Behind the lines, 1Lt Metzger and the gruppe HQ take out the first sapper squad. A second has popped up behind 2nd platoons MG 42 - which gets destroyed as it can't hit anything. Why are German MGs - the lifeblood of the Wehrmacht historically - so sucky in SP: WaW? On the field, 4 enemy squads and another VH fall. We have 5 of them.

Turn Six:

2 50/turn VHs pop up in the silo. Fortunately, the silos almost empty, so I should be able to get them and make up for the loss of Albecht. We take both hexes and kill 3 squads and an atr team. Only 1 VH left. *** Pop up squads! How fun. One pops up in one of the 2 VHs we just took - and, of course, even though it's not a move for reaction purposes, it is one for VH taking. They get the hex, get shot up, and 7 surrender, but, they get the 50 points, even though there's not a Russian in the silo at turns end. Bah. We lose a squad, a torn up one, to yet another pop up squad. *SFMB*

Turn Seven:

We kill 4 more squads and take back the VH. They still hold one, with 2 platoons behind it. *** We lose an engineer squad to enemy counterattacks. *SFMB*

Turn Eight:

We push on, and waste 4 more squads, take 5 more prisoners, and the last VH. *** And, another! Pop up squad!! It takes a per turn hex back, kills a recon team and gets shoved out of the Silo. 50 more Soviet points though. *SFMB*

Turn Nine:

We kill that squad - and retake the hex. *** And, it happens again. New one pops up, same spot. Gets shot up. But 50 more Russian points. They lose one, elsewhere, countering. *SFMB*

Turn Ten:

And we kill that one. And retake the hex. We also kill a sniper team. *** And, again. Same thing, same hex. 200 bonus points, so far, for the Russians.

Turn Eleven:

They die. We retake. Let's see if it happens again.

Nope. Scen ends, in the predicted draw.

2828 to 982. Now, if we take away the 200 Soviet cheese points, it's 3028 to 782 - a MV. That's what it should have been. Horrible design. Totally horrible. The limitations of the engine must be taken into account in scenario design. They clearly were not here. This is two in a row I've won, and won big, to only get draws. All the enemy had left, on this map, was a lone squad. He was, for the second straight fight, effectively wiped out, and yet I get draws.

And the snippy post game comment doesn't help my mood.

Losses:

German: 63 men, 3 AFV
Soviet: 439 men, 3 arty

PoWs: 12

Between scens: We get the Flampanzer and Mk IV platoons back to full strength and get a squad. We're down a MG 42 team, a Spec Ops team, an engineer squad and 2 FlakPz.

Next mission: Apparently 71st Division has lost part of Mamayev Kurgan Hill, which we so brilliantly siezed a wekk before, and so we need to retake it, with aid from them and 295th. It's a night assault and we'll be up against 42nd Guards.

Alex

_____________________________

"Tonight a dynasty is born." Ricky Proehl, then of the Saint Louis Rams. He was right! Go Pats! Winners of Super Bowls 36, 38 and 39.

(in reply to Alexandra)
Post #: 42
- 12/21/2002 1:07:29 PM   
BryanMelvin

 

Posts: 1555
Joined: 7/28/2000
From: Colorado, USA
Status: offline
I am surprised you managed a draw in the Grain Silo battle. The majority of test play results were Decisive Win's with an Elite status Core force. Marginal wins should be the norm too. This should have been an easy battle to win. I feel bad that you had a hard time of it at the Grain Silo and the scenario seemed poorly designed :(

There are tank traps in this and the key to win - Tank fire and Artillery - move tanks through wooden buildings to bring fire on Russki's. Yes - sewer movement occurs in this battle too..


- Remember - Sewer movement in Urban areas -

movement underground in sewers was a common theme in Stalingrad and Russki's can pop up anywhere just as German Special Ops can ;)

Just like happened in downtown Stalingrad.

That's why those pesty Russki's pop up with surprises! Historicallly - German Infantry would often find themselves quietly try to rest and regroup in what they thought was a nice safe building, then, bang - Russians were amongst them in bloody hand to hand combat as if out of the woodwork.

Remember this when in Urban settings..

Note: Downtown Stalingrad Battles

Pavlov's house was not occupied by Pavlov until around September 19, 1942. The downtown Stalingrad battles in campaign are before Pavlov captured the house from the Germans and then defended it. The map name is merely for reference to it's location on map.

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(in reply to Alexandra)
Post #: 43
- 12/21/2002 1:10:23 PM   
BryanMelvin

 

Posts: 1555
Joined: 7/28/2000
From: Colorado, USA
Status: offline
Be prepared for Draws in the Urban Fighting - the Tractor Factory Battles should be Marginal and Decisive Wins but it depends on what one does ;)

Red barricades battles hmmmm...

they are a different story :eek:

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(in reply to Alexandra)
Post #: 44
- 12/22/2002 7:09:34 AM   
Alexandra


Posts: 546
Joined: 12/7/2000
From: USA
Status: offline
Bryan, I didn't have trouble with it, that's the key to my gripe.

At the end of the battle, I held the field, and there were only a half dozen Russians, in one squad, on it, and they were fleeing. And, even had I killed them, killing every single enemy on the map, and, thereby, achieving a battle an anihilation, it still would have been a draw.

For the second time in a row, I, for all intents and purposes, wiped out the defenders and take all VHs and get draws.

Now, in the first scen, I'll accept high casualities leading to it. We did lose almost 600 men after all. Not this time.

Why?

Design.

Firstly, tank traps aren't an issue. I didn't notice any, and my key tanks were as effective as always. Arty, too, my mortar platoon did it's yeoman's work and heavily limited the enemy.

The issues I have are twofold. One, the 7 initial VHs are way undervalued. 7 VHs at a total of 400 VPs is an average of 57.1 points per hex. So, when the pop up squad got my FlakPz, it, in effect, made 3 of those VHs useless. That's why I predicted the draw, and I was right. That was on turn 3, before I had any VHs, I knew when the result would be. That's not good, but, it is basic math.

But, the big issue is the pop up squads inside the silo itself. Why is this an issue?

First, because they cannot pop up there, sewer lines or no. Why? Because Grain Silos cannot have sewer lines or basements. Grain is heavy. If you put anything other than solid ground under a silo, it collapses when full of grain. Hence, no way for them to pop up there.

Second, the comparing the pop up there with SpecOps infiltration is flawed. SpecOps may or may not appear, and when they do, if they appear in a VH, it does not change sides. Those squads appeared, via, I'd bet a reinformcement hex there, and were assured that they would show up.

So, no matter what the player does, the AI will get 200 VPs, minimum in the silo. No matter what. There is no way, because of engine limatations, to prevent that. Period.

So, before the game starts, half of the VPs the player can see do not matter. They are negated. Regardless of how well, or poorly, he plays, they are negated before he deploys his first unit.

Again, that's basic math.

Now, as many know, I hate draws. But, if I get fought well, don't get to everywhere, and the enemy has a coherent defense still, will I complain about a draw? No.

But, when I wipe them out - twice!, and take my objectives - twice!, and have a MV stolen by points given to the AI by design decisions, will I complain? Yes.

Alex - Go Pats! Take the Jets, then the 'fins and we're in!

_____________________________

"Tonight a dynasty is born." Ricky Proehl, then of the Saint Louis Rams. He was right! Go Pats! Winners of Super Bowls 36, 38 and 39.

(in reply to Alexandra)
Post #: 45
- 12/22/2002 11:07:31 AM   
Grenadier


Posts: 981
Joined: 5/10/2000
From: Newport Beach, CA USA
Status: offline
This probably rests on playing style. In canvassing the grain silo from left to right the 2 hidden VO's are taken well before they show up on their own, assuring at oleast a minor victory. The Marines have a very high rally rating for their leaders and high morale. They were in the top of the grain elevator and the fighting there was over several levels in the elevator and the Guardsmen reinforced the grain silo from the east. If you want I will send you the original and you can play with it to improve the design as you see it.

Read William Craig's Enemy at the Gates or Anthony Beavor's Stalingrad for a full description of the grain elevator battles. Seveal players including most of the Raiders Arsenal tested and retested the scenarios in this campaign and they got mostly MV's with a few DV's. Artillery types make a huge difference

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Brent Grenadier Richards




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(in reply to Alexandra)
Post #: 46
- 12/22/2002 12:10:14 PM   
BryanMelvin

 

Posts: 1555
Joined: 7/28/2000
From: Colorado, USA
Status: offline
Yes, math was used in campaign design to reflect some of the frustration the German's felt inside Stalingrad :eek:

German forces would inflict massive casualties on the Russians and hold the ground but the few loses they suffered could not be replaced as fast as Russian loses could. In essence - attrition. Slow attrition. As the Battle of Stalingrad progressed, more German casualties occurred. Replacements became harder to come by. The total loss of a Tank or Flak wagon - became harder to replace. To reflect this in spwaw scale - German units are worth more points than Russian - even in default settings of game - German units are worth more points in the game. As Core force becomes Elite Status - they are worth more and more points.

Next, the Grain silo battle in this campaign was very hard to balance because so many players would be choosing a wide array and types of units for her/his core force with varied play styles too. The Core units would be Elite Status at this stage of game thus increasing their inherent Victory point cost. So a Stat's formula was used to determine Victory conditions. So far, it has worked well. Many players achieve a Decisive or Marginal wins in this battle. They report that they avoided loses to armor units as well as pull Infantry back that suffered heavy loses and won the battle. The Raider's that tested the battle reported that this battle seemed too easy unless they lost too many key units.

As for units popping up. This was a spwaw game system usage in order to bring reinforcements into the battle at key areas at the best-calculated turn of arrival. As I said before, use of Core force and playing style can effect this too. For example, air dropping units on a V-Flag may expose the entry of Reinforcements, the taking of a building (Grain Silo) a turn earlier than calculated will have units popping in. Also, remember that the Grain Silo was huge and the Russians held the upper floors and the Germans - the first floor for a time. So to reflect this multi level building - Russian units may pop in. Again, this is an spwaw game system issue. Again, when designing a scenario - one must use the flaws of a game system to try to reflect a real life event. Timing is difficult as the use of core forces and taking terrian areas early can have surprises.

Spwaw Game System determines a Marginal Win by having over a 3 to 1 point advantage over the AI or another human player. This is a game system flaw - it should be a 2-1.

Combat Leader will fix these problems but for now, we did the best we could with what we have to work with.

Also, the Stalingrad game is not a typical spwaw style campaign.
Some battles were calculated to be draws (using the system's 3-1 flaw). It is not easy to achieved a decisive Victory unless a battle was designed so. The campaign was designed to reflect the brutal nature of this battle, along with its frustrations, that the German commanders and troops felt during this battle. Also, it was designed to show how the German Army was unprepared for Urban combat at that time and how they adapted to it. This was no easy feat to simulate.

One maybe used to playing normal style campaigns in spwaw that acheive victory easy enough but this campaign was designed differently:

It can be fustrating :eek:

as the battle really was! This campaign (is) designed as a learning tool for a player to get a simulated taste and emotional feel of this battle without the true carnage of war.

If one is feeling frustrated - I suggest that one should take a few days off and then try it again. Learn from it. and note that --

Game system does not allow for Multi-level building effects sewers nor sneak attacks nor surprise ambushes but these can be simulated when units Pop on the map. Trick is - learn from it and plan for the unexpected as you play.

I guarantee if you finish this campaign, your spwaw gaming and overall wargame skill will improve to new levels! PBEM games will improve! Players will stand in awe of your skill and use of units!

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(in reply to Alexandra)
Post #: 47
- 12/26/2002 1:25:19 AM   
BryanMelvin

 

Posts: 1555
Joined: 7/28/2000
From: Colorado, USA
Status: offline
One more point I forgot to mention was - Victory Flags! These are in scenario battles for a reason. Alex, please do not forget to include the total battle points and not just troop loses.

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(in reply to Alexandra)
Post #: 48
- 12/28/2002 8:56:45 AM   
Alexandra


Posts: 546
Joined: 12/7/2000
From: USA
Status: offline
I always incude the points.

Alex

_____________________________

"Tonight a dynasty is born." Ricky Proehl, then of the Saint Louis Rams. He was right! Go Pats! Winners of Super Bowls 36, 38 and 39.

(in reply to Alexandra)
Post #: 49
- 1/4/2003 11:18:32 PM   
Alexandra


Posts: 546
Joined: 12/7/2000
From: USA
Status: offline
Happy New Year all.

Back to the City!

Kill Leaders:

Sgt Krafft, Flampanzer II (48),
Sgt Langkeit, Flampanzer II (36)
2Lt Metzger, FlakPz Plt Ldr (21)

Mission Twelve:

Date: September 19, 1942
Time: 0200
Location: Stalingrad

Mission: 71st Division has lost part of Mamayev Kurgan Hill, which we so brilliantly siezed a week before, and so we need to retake it, with aid from them and 295th. It's a night assault and we'll be up against 42nd Guards.

Support: 1 Btn 150mm OBA, Ammo Dump

Aux Forces: 1 105 Bty, 150 Bty, 1 FO, 1 Rifle Platoon, 4 Mk IVs, normal attached transport, 1 Btn Neb, 3 reinforced rifle companies

The Map: The Mamayev Kurgan map again naturally.

The Plan: A simple one. Advance on the hill. Kill baddies. Repeat.


Turn One:

The assault kicks off in the rainy night. My north company gets heavily hit by enemy arty and it's assault starts off slow. My center comapny is also disrupted, it's on the hill itself, and the limited visibility won't help much. We make contact south of the hill in a few places and kill an AAMG. Now, I wanna make a comment here. The Soviet pre game bombarment is very effective, basically plastering good parts of 2 companies. I've no problem with that as it is very logical that the Soviets would know, after days of fighting on the hill, roughly where the German positions would be and so, where to hit. However, the German bombardment, as set up in the bombardment menu, sucks. It's not concentrated at all, so it will not have any real effect, and, 2 of it's fire missions are smoke. On a visibility 3 map. That's just points for the Sov SMG squads. Now, I fixed it, so it'll have no effect on my game, but it is disappointing.

Turn Two:

On the north side of map, last turn we found a pillbox. It just happens to have back cover from a MG bunker, so that may be a problem. And we lose a complete squad, in 1 shot, to a SMG squad that just happens to be - yes, you guess it, right behind one of those pre game smoke hexes. In the houses south of the hill we hit Russians. On the hill itself, and just south of it, we slowly advance against the nicely deployed enemy squads and manage to get two of them and an ATG.

Turn Three:

Well, I'm in trouble in the north. Given the 4, so far, fortifications, and the fact my engineers are set up in such a place as to be out of position to take out any of them, I'm stuck. And, what are these four bunkers guarding? A 100 VP VH in a warehouse. So, we're backing off there. I'll lose more than 100 points trying to take it at this point. There are at least 316 points of units guarding a 100 point VH, and I'll bet another 120 or so in the warehouse itself. To the south, we are stymied for the moment, but that's only cause I wanna roll the line up, and I'm not gonna take unneeded losses. On and near the hill we advance where we can and kill 2 squads and a MG team. *** Enemy pressure on the hill, but we are holding.

Turn Four:

Quiet in the north, limited action to the south. On the hill itself, though, we taste success knocking out 2 bunkers, 3 squads, and a mortar squad and we may have broken through to the far south of the hill area, near the train tracks. *** Enemy counter attacks make no progress.

Turn Five:

Quiet south as we prep. Quiet north as we rally from arty. We stabilize our hill positions and kill 2 squads and a bunker. *** Enemy attacks are constant but parried.

Turn Six:

Still quiet north and south. On the hill we parry and push. 3 squads, 2 Maxim teams and an ATG gun go down. *** The enemy presses hard and loses 4 squads. But, it's a wash, as with a 9% assault, they get 1Lt Schaub. There goes a 19+ kill panzer. Lucky Russians.

Turn Seven:

To the south, we kill a squad and take the south most VH. Arty is slowing us, though, as much as the enemy, but fair is fair. On the hill we push back a pair of squads, kill one, and bump into KVs. South of the hill, we get a squad and a MG team, and start to assemble a small force that will sweep north, behind the hill. *** Well, the counterattack goes the enemy way. We get a squad. They get a track, 2nd Plt HQ (with a 4 kill KV MG shot), and 1Lt Kortenhaus's Stug.

Turn Eight:

On the hill, we take out three squads and press others back as we try and gain some sort of advantage here. South of the hill, we lose Sgt Schultz's Stug and a track. (How come Soviet infantry can move through cover terrain, directly at the front of a panzer, and get no reaction fire, but German infantry, moving in just as good cover terrain, to the flank of a KV-1, get spotted and engaged with no fire chance first?). Further south, though, we kill a bunker and an AA gun, and the flanking strike force is ready. In the housing complex, we get three squads and should soon secure it. *** They press hard and agressively. We lose a track and MG team 3. But, they lose a pair of KVs to close assaults, and have a third immobilized.

Turn Nine:

We secure the housing complex. On the hill, we knock out 3 enemy squads and the immobilized KV. South of it we shift and move but draw no blood. *** They press on. We get a squad, and 2 more KVs in close assaults. *SFMB*

Turn Ten:

To the far south, we knock out a pillbox and a MG nest in the housing area. On and around the hill, we get 3 squads and a KV. My flanking force (1 platoon infanty, 1 Mk IV, 3 Flampanzer) starts northeast, along the railway, and behind the hill. *** Soviet counterattacks result in no gains for the enemy.

Turn Eleven:

On and around the hill, six more enemy squads are destroyed. The flank force advances, and knocks out 4 more squads and takes a small hill VH. *** The enemy loses one squad in various counterattacks, including a one squad one in the housing area.

Turn Twelve:

We get 3 more squads on the hill and it's nearly secure. We also get the squad in the housing area. The flank force gets 3 more enemy squads. *** 4 more enemy squads are knocked out in thier attacks.

Turn Thirteen:

Quiet on most of the front. Flank force kills an AA gun and a mg team.

Turn Fourteen:

We kill a MG team on the hill and anothe with the flank force. *** Two more enemy squads fall on the hill.

Turn Fifteen:

We get the last 2 known hill squads. All hill VHs taken. Flank force gets the enemy HQ, a FO element and a pair of 82mm mortars, but loses the Mk IV to an ATG. However, 10 mortars are then directed on that ATg! Mww Haaa haa! :)

Turn Sixteen:

We get the ATG. *SFMB*

Turn Seventeen:

We take the next to last VH. Only the 100 point warehouse is in enemy hands. We kill three squads and a MG team surrenders. They lose one more counteratting, and it should have been two.

And it ends.

German MV!! Who Hoo!!! 8716 to 1978.

Our losses: 293 men, 3 APC, 4 AFV.
Soviet losses: 1095 men, 23 arty, 6 AFV. Wow, an enemy battaltion+ gone.

This was a hard fight. The limited visibility made it very rough, but, again, we take the hill!!

However, the poor way the Soviets tossed the KVs forward, into infantry armed with Panzerwurfermines allowed me to easily deal with them. But, 3 experienced Panzers were lost, though I think one crew made it out ok.

Between Scens: All infantry and Stug losses replaced. One more flakPanzer back. We are down 1 Mk IV and 1 FlakPz

Next Mission: A two pronged mission. I must hold the Red Square area, while relieving a trapped battalion of 71st Division, and then, with those men attached to my Ablietung, clear the banks of the Volga.

PoWs: 3 (56 on campaign)

Alex

My predicitions for Wild Card Weekend: Jets, Packers, Steelers, and Giants advance!

_____________________________

"Tonight a dynasty is born." Ricky Proehl, then of the Saint Louis Rams. He was right! Go Pats! Winners of Super Bowls 36, 38 and 39.

(in reply to Alexandra)
Post #: 50
- 1/6/2003 12:27:10 PM   
BryanMelvin

 

Posts: 1555
Joined: 7/28/2000
From: Colorado, USA
Status: offline
Only 56 POWs? Shame! ;)

Impressed that you won a marginal. I designed this one and only can manage a draw at best :eek:

That is with about 15 times played!

The Arty strikes simulate the massive Artillery bombardments that ocurred on mav. kurg. hill by both sides. For this spwaw version, I had to tone these down a bit ;)

Now you are off to more drity fighting in the City - this is Brent's masterpiece - Good Luck :cool:

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Post #: 51
- 1/9/2003 9:49:48 AM   
Alexandra


Posts: 546
Joined: 12/7/2000
From: USA
Status: offline
Kill Leaders:

Sgt Krafft, Flampanzer II (51),
Sgt Langkeit, Flampanzer II (42)
2Lt Wiedemann, FlamPz Plt Ldr (26)

Elite Units:

1st Platoon: 2nd and 4th Squads.
Flampanzer Platoon: 2Lt Wiedemann, Sgt Krafft, Sgt Langkeit

Mission Thirteen:

Date: September 22, 1942
Time: 1000
Location: Stalingrad

Notes: Lt Kortenhaus survived the loss of his Stug on Mamayev Kurgan and is back in the saddle with a new one.

Mission: A two pronged mission. I must hold the Red Square area, while relieving a trapped battalion of 71st Division, and then, with those men attached to my Ablietung, clear the banks of the Volga.

Support: 2 FlamPz.

Aux Forces: 5 rifle platoon, 1 ATR platoon, 2 engineer platoon, 4 Pz III, 1 recon platoon, 2 mortar tracks, 1 battery 75mm, 1 battery 105mm, 1 Neb platoon, 1 FO, 1 Motorized FO, 2 37mm ATG, 2 88s, 2 Pz IVs, 2 Flak36, 4 Stuka flights, 2 sturm platoons, 2 motorcycle platoons, 1 HS-129 flight, 2 Marder, 2 Stug, 2 SP flak, transport

The Map: It's the train station map. We need to retake parts of Red Square and the Volga bank as well as the Bank and the Beer Factory.

The Plan: I'll deploy my core to move towards the Bank and Factory first, then South to Red Square. We'll work on hitting each objective en masse.

Pregame:

Stuka's kill a barge crossing the river.

Turn One:

Fighting in various parts of Red Square. In the garden area we kill a squad and engage more of them, while in the main Square, we lose an ATR team. Meanwhile, Core units advance. They kill 2 scout teams and a HMG team. *** The enemy presses heavily at the gardens, with a force I estimate at two rifle companies. They take both garden VHs, but lose a squad and a scout team in the process.

Turn Two:

A sturm platoon arrives and starts to the front. Along the way, it bags 2 sniper teams. Core and non core support units get 2 squads and a scout team, but a small track is lost. In the gardens, we attack and get 5 squads and a scout team and retake one of the VHs. In the Square itself, we get an ATR team. *** They seem to be in a little shock, from the force of the defense of the gardens, and the push slows. Each side loses a recon team. Then disaster nearly strikes! A stuka, called in to hit a building diverts about 500 meters west and strafes a squad and tank in the garden - fortunately, it had no bombs and we lose no men!

Turn Three:

Forces on the north bank of the Volga, who have been firing on the five barges crossing it, destroy one. The Sturm platoon spots a pair of 30 per turn VHs at the Train Station. A truck there already takes them and we divert a couple squads and, 5 tracks, to guard them. Second Platoon takes the State Bank. They will next move the the Volga, with the FlamPanzers, to clear the positions there. Spec Ops Platoon will hold the bank. Lt Kortenhaus' platoon, and an attached Sturm Platoon move south, and knock out a Scout team and a squad but also lose a squad (7 of 10 killed in 1 SMG shot!). In Red Square we get an AT gun, and in the gardens we push more, getting 2 squads and 2 recon patrols. They still hold one of the 20 per turn hexes, but I'm willing to give up 20 points, so that I don't lose more. We'll get it back soon enough, and with the loss of the barge, I know I made more than 20 this turn. *** The Soviets lose a barge to reaction fire. They also have men in the trainyard, and a tank enters the gardens.

Turn Four:

Core elements knock out a recon team and a 76mm ATG. At the train station, we kill two sapper teams, though the enemy has taken one of the VHs. Still, 3 Sturm Squads are nearly there, and the tracks have a nice perimeter around the other. At the Square, we bag a Molotov squad, and at the Gardens, we kill 2 squads, a recon patrol, and a T-26 and retake the 2nd VH. That attack, thus far, has been smashed. *** They lose a Squad, and a T-26, in the garden, and, it looks as if one barge has landed.

Turn Five:

The flampanzers knock out a HMG team and an 82mm Mortar Squad, as SpecOps takes over at the Bank. A 45mm ATG beyond the Beer factory is knocked out and 1st Platoon takes the factory. It will turn it over to some nearly Heer infantry and the 2 extra flampanzers to hold. Two more 30 per turn VHs have appeared at the train station. As the Gardens seem secure, the other 3 Sturm squads are diverted that way. And, these pop up VHs show why to *not* play this campaign with C&C on!. And that's not a criticism, just an observation. We kill a squad at the station. At the square, we get 2 squads and a MG team. We get a T-34 and a squad at the Garden while losing a squad. *** We lose a Stug and get a T-34 at the Garden. The Sov's have taken one of the deep per turn hexes at the Station.

Turn Six:

We knock out another 82mm mortar along the Volga. Gruppe Kortenhaus knocks out a 76mm ATG. Yet another point per turn VH (5 now) at the station. We kill a sapper team and take one back. So we have two and they have one. They'll have two this turn, though. We get an ATR team, 2 squads and 2 VHs in the Square and we bag another squad in the gardens. *** They lose a squad counterattacking, and 2 more barges set sail towards our side of the city.

Turn Seven:

First Platoon hands off the factory. Along the Volga we get a scout team, a MG team, a squad, and an 82mm mortar. We're gonna roll right up to the landing zone, kill whatever landed - infantry I think - and then blow the empty barges away. Gruppe Kortenhaus takes out 2 squads. In the square, we get a squad, a MG team, and an ATR team. We get another squad at the garden. *** There are now three barges crossing the river. The enemy loses 2 MG teams along the front. We lose a squad in the gardens. And it's totally ludicrous. The enemy moves one squad adjacent to one of mine, in the south VH. Enemy squad draws fire. Then, suddenly, the VH turns Soviet!! And a Soviet unit, in the hex, attacks and kills my squad. So it moved not 1, but 2 hexes, adjacent to my good order infantry and got to attack without drawing 1!!!!!!! reaction fire shot from the squad or the next door panzer!!!! Again, this is not a critcism of design, but, it is a bad part of the engine.

Turn Eight:

Along the Volga, we get 2 squads and an empty barge. I think all barge landed forces are dead. In the Square, we get an ATR team, 2 MG teams, and a squad and take a VH. We finish two squads in the garden and retake the lost VH. At the station, we kill a sapper team and snag back a VH. We have 3, they have 1. *** We get a sapper squad at the station, and the Luftwaffe gets a barge.

Turn Nine:

We destroy the last of the landed barges. At the square, we get 4 squads and an ATR team. We get another squad at the garden. At the station, we get a fourth VH. They hold one. *** At the station, we lose a squad and a track and they lose a sapper team. We get a squad at the gardens, and two barges die.

Turn Ten:

We get a barge with a FlakPz, leaving one, I can see, on the river still. We also kill a squad along the banks of the Volga we sweep there. We get two squads on the approaches to Red Square. On the south side of the bank we get another enemy squad. In and around the gardens another squad is bagged. We have a stalemate at the station. *** Fighting over varied parts of the city. We lose a track, at the station, to, get this, rifle fire! At 200 meters.

Turn Eleven:

We get a squad and a 50 mm mortar on the banks of the Volga. In and around Red Square, we bag 3 squads and a MG team and take the south bank VH. We get another squad in the gardens and yet another at the station. *** In fighting, they lose three squads, to our one. But, yes a but, one of those squads moved two hexes, the first adjacent to two units, then second the - occupied - south garden per turn VH. It died in that hex, yet, as we all know, the Soviets get the points for that turn. I am eagerly awaiting CL hoping, desperately, that it checks for VH control at the *end* of turns to get around that. *SFMB*

Turn Twelve:

We get a pair of squads on, or near, the banks of the Volga. We bag a MG team and a squad in the gardens, too. At the station, we get two more squads and an ATR team. And, as one barge is floating in the river, refusing to come be shot, I call planes down on it! *** Well, more Russians out of the woodwork. A platoon plus is coming from the south of the gardens. And, in the station, another platoon arrives. In the fighting in the station, they lose 2 squads, and we lose 1, and a track, and, again!!!! a squad of the enemies gets to enter an occupied!!!! per turn VH without drawing reaction fire. *SFMB*

Turn Thirteen:

We get four more squads in and around the Square. We get a sapper team at the station, but, basically, lack the manpower to do anything more there, unless the AI gets real stupid. *** Heavy fighting at the station, which costs me one, and them two, squads. *SFMB*

Turn Fourteen:

We get three more squads in, and around, the square. We kill a squad at the station and retake a VH there. *** They lose three more squads in the station. *SFMB*

Turn Fifteen:

We get three more squads in and around the square. *** They lose two more squads in station fighting. *SFMB*

Turn Sixteen:

We get one squad in the square and secure it, and five more with the flampanzers south of the garden. And, we take the whole station, killing 3 more squads there. *SFMB*

Turn Seventeen:

The last barge finally sails and gets blown out of the water by an 88. We get a MG and a squad near the park and a squad behind the station. *SFMB*

And the result is:

German DV!!! Whoo Hooo!! 11362 to 2142.

German losses: 218 men, 4 APC, 1 AFV.
Soviet losses: 1447 men, 10 arty, 12 APC, 11 AFV. I have to assume that some of the civilian vehicles count as APCs and that barges may be AFVs, cause there were only 4 tanks. All they had left on board was 1 squad, 2 50mm mortars, and the crew of another mortar.

PoWs: 0 (56 on campaign)

Comments: First of all, point per turn hexes were much too prevalent in this scen. PPTs are hard to test, and can lead to very unbalancing results, and most of the ones in the scen made no sense at all. A couple shouldn't have, IMO, been VHs at all.

However, my complaint, if one can call it that, is the fight at the Train Station. It is totally unneeded. It goes against the mission you have, and, all it does is make the scen have to be longer. And, at 150 per turn, there, you can't just ignore it.

Between scens: We are back to full strength. 2 Stug's upgraded to F/8s. 1 Flak Pz upgraded to SdKfz 10/4.

Next mission: We are attached to 24th Panzer for an attack on the Tractor Factory.

Alex

_____________________________

"Tonight a dynasty is born." Ricky Proehl, then of the Saint Louis Rams. He was right! Go Pats! Winners of Super Bowls 36, 38 and 39.

(in reply to Alexandra)
Post #: 52
- 1/9/2003 10:58:14 PM   
Grenadier


Posts: 981
Joined: 5/10/2000
From: Newport Beach, CA USA
Status: offline
Hi Alex,
Very impressive!. Job well done. The discrepancy in AFV's is beacuse there were tanks on some of those barges. You took a route I do not think the average player would have, rolling up the riverbank from north to south. I tried that once but the losses to the cut off units were too painful and I felt it my duty to relieve my trapped comrades ASAP, a course I think the average player will take, unless they are reading this.:D

Your comments about the fight at the train station speak to the core of my changes to the redesign. You say it is not needed and goes against the mission in the battle. You are correct in that it plays against the main mission which is to relieve the trapped units on the Volga. Yet the battles in the city were unpredictable. The train station changed hands 22 times in the 2nd half of September and this battle reflects, IMO, the schizophrenic nature of the fighting in the city where the Germans would take a building and advance only to lose it to infiltrating Guards units later the same day. The point per turn hexes are the only way to effecftively illustrate this type of fighting.

Chuikov was constantly feeding in reinforcements to the critical areas and I also attempted to illustrate this as well as the simple fact that the Germans were being stretched too thin from earlier losses in the battle.

The opening description of Rattenkreig give an indication of what is to be expected in this battle. This is a technique I used in Lost Victories to prepare the player for the possibilities of what may or may not happen in the battle. The idea is to give the historical situation without telegraphing the way the battle will go, a very difficult undertaking.

"General Chuikov was still sending in reinforcements to the units of Rodmitsev's 13 Guards Rifle Division which had been nearly destroyed in the week's fighting since it arrived in Stalingrad on Sept 14. During this time Rodmitsev's guardsmen succeded in breaking the German hold on the Volga east of The train station and the central train station changed hands 13 times, 5 times in one day alone as the Russians defended the city with a stubbornness never shown before. Paulus was forced to halt LI Korps attack to the north and ordered Seydlitz to clear out the city center once and for all. Paulus' losses were escalating rapidly and whole batallions were down to the size of companies in a single week of street fighting. Nothing was conceded by the Russians. They used the sewer system to get into the German rear areas, shooting up supply trucks and unit headquarters. The Germans would clear a whole block and proceed to the next when a machine gun would shoot at them from behind as the Russians worked their way back into the just cleared block and force the Germans to retake it all over again. Companies and whole batallions would be cut off for hours or days until a renewed attack would reestablish contact. From the east side of the Volga, Russian artillery and katyushas would keep up a constant fire on the German positions, whittling their numbers down even more.*
*
The Germans, unused to this type of fighting, coined a name for it, Rattenkreig, the war of the rats. Losses soared as they had to deal with the counterattacks from the constant flow of reinforcements crossing the Volga. The Luftwaffe and artillery sank many of these ferries, but enough got through to keep the Russians alive in the city. Most of the landsers had not fought in close quarters like this, except for the veterans of the Kiev battle the year before. After the costly fighting there, Hitler had vowed not to ever attack a Russian city but instead to surround and starve them into submission after 6th Army had suffered so heavily in the streets of Kiev. A year later the 6th Army was again embroiled in bitter street fighting with an enemy that has grown even more cunning and vicious."

I think my orders to the player make it clear to expect the unexpected in this battle as well.
*
"Commander, a batallion of 71 Infantry Division has been cut off on the Volga bank. Your orders are to reestablish contact with the batallion and then clear the bank of the enemy to the north and south and eliminate the pockets of resistance in the city center. We need control of the river bank in order to interdict the constant ferrying of reinforcements to the Ivans still in the city center and take control of Stalingrad once and for all. Do not leave the area around Red Square unguarded as the Ivans keep trying to retake this sector and drive towards the train station. Choose the location of your main effort. Transportation will be provided to shift your forces around the city."

There are small hints of potential trouble spots in the deployment such as engineer squads removing mines near the train station and the buildings being on fire so the player is not totally taken by surprise.

The fact you got a DV in a battle which I designed to get a draw for the average player and the testers never got better than marginals is in itself a testimonial that nothing is predictable in this battle. It was designed to force the player into some choices that will have repercussions one way or the other. Do I use my artillery and aircraft to interdict the barge crossings or to smash the attack at Red Square? Do I attack to clear the riverbank from north to south and let the cut off forces hold out longer or do I attack from the city center to the Volga toi relieve the forces right away? How big is the attack in the south and how much of my core do I use there? How many reinforcements are in the barges and do I try to sink them or let them land? Do I leave the engineers to removing mines or do I move them to Red Square or into the Train Station?

I am sorry if my design philosophy is not agreeable to you, Alex. Just be prepared for more PPT's iun the next series of battles

_____________________________

Brent Grenadier Richards




__________________


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(in reply to Alexandra)
Post #: 53
- 1/10/2003 12:20:06 AM   
Alexandra


Posts: 546
Joined: 12/7/2000
From: USA
Status: offline
*grin*

I don't disagree, from a design standpoint, for the fight there. I'm not overfond of the PPT there, but, were I commander of 71st ID, and needed to save my boys, I'd task someone else - not the rescue force - for the station :)

The station fight ended up being the main fight, as I tossed in whatever infantry I could spare, ended up being 9 squads, and the track platoon, and late game, a few panzers, into it.

I was suprised there was no pressure on the guys on the Volga bank. Though, that attack via the gardens could mess someone up if they moved east on turn one.

Really, the only VH I didn't agree with the the *German* one in the Gorki Theater. I got, what, 300+ VHs there, and it was never threatened.

Overall, though, I liked this one.

Next up - the Tractor Factory!!!

Alex

_____________________________

"Tonight a dynasty is born." Ricky Proehl, then of the Saint Louis Rams. He was right! Go Pats! Winners of Super Bowls 36, 38 and 39.

(in reply to Alexandra)
Post #: 54
- 1/15/2003 8:35:43 PM   
Alexandra


Posts: 546
Joined: 12/7/2000
From: USA
Status: offline
Kill Leaders:

Sgt Krafft, Flampanzer II (58),
Sgt Langkeit, Flampanzer II (48)
2Lt Wiedemann, FlamPz Plt Ldr (36)

Elite Units:

1st Platoon: 2nd and 4th Squads.
Flampanzer Platoon: 2Lt Wiedemann, Sgt Krafft, Sgt Langkeit

Mission Fourteen:

Date: October 14, 1942
Time: 0800
Location: Stalingrad

Mission: We are attached to 24th Panzer for an attack on the Tractor Factory.

Support: 1 flight Hs 123, 1 flight FW 189A-1.

Aux Forces: 2 Recon Platoon, 1 FO, 1 Battery 105, 1 Battery 150, 2 mortar tracks, 1 mortar platoon, 4 rifle platoons, 4 Panzer III, 4 Panzer IV, 3 Rifle Company, 2 Flampanzer, 4 Engineer Platoons, 2 Spec Ops Platoons.

The Map: The map is a heavily urban one. I am moving west to east, with my objective a series of buildings in the Factory. I have to take (from south to north, and west to east): A pair of assembly buildings, Assembly Hall Two, Assembly Hall One, an unnamed building, a Repair Shop, a Lab, and an Iron Foundry.

The Plan: My core can come in from the south and shall do so. Aux forces move in from the west. We shall use arty liberally and leave forces behind to secure VHs. All VHs are end of battle ones, except one. The nameless building has a 20 per turn VH. Why??? If it's not important enough of a building to have a name what makes it's possession any more critical than any of the other buildings?

Pregame: Arty and air strikes. Air is inffective, as it tends to go after eye candy, though it inflicts some losees.

Turn One:

We push forward and lose two recon teams. However, we kill 2 MG teams, a MG nest and a T-70 tank. Luftwaffe detects T-34s behind the factory and enemy infantry to the north.

Turn Two:

We advance and knock out a 45mm ATG, a T-70 and a DHSK team. We also knock out a log rifle pit. *** T-34s advance.

Turn Three:

We get a MG team and a MG nest. The advance is painfully slow. *** Soviets do some tentative advancing.

Turn Four:

Aux Spec Ops Squad infiltrates. We knock out a log rifle pit and a MG team. We push into the first set of assembly buildings where we disvcover 2 20 per turn VHs. We kill off a squad and another 45mm ATG. *** The enemy pushes in more agressively.

Turn Five:

Another Aux Spec Ops squad infiltration. We press on and start to inflict more losses. We kill off 2 MG teams, an ATR team, a 50mm mortar squad, a sniper team, a log rifle pit, 3 T-70s and 2 T-34s. We have a foothold in Assembly Hall Two. We lose yet another recon team. *** They lose a squad countering.

Turn Six:

3 more infilitrating squads arrive. We press deeper into the complex, fighting as we go. 4 squads, 4 MG teams, 2 45mm ATGs, and a T-34 die. We take the component assembly areas and enter the repair shop. *** We lose a Spec Ops squad to enemy counterattacks and they lose an ATR team.

Turn Seven:

Two hidden, per turn VHs, have popped up in Assembly Hall One. We kill a squad, a 50mm mortar, an 82mm mortar, and a T-34 and we lose another SpecOps Squad. We are contesting AH 1, AH 2, and the Reapir Shop. We take the nameless building. *** We get another squad and a molotov team. Pop up squads appear. No real suprise that.

Turn Eight:

11 more enemy squads die. We also get a 50mm mortar squad. We take Assembly Hall Two. We lose a squad. Now, here I have a complaint. In not one, not two, but *three* different hexes, enemy squads that popped up engaged my troops in HtH. That's fine and is rather cool of the AI to initiate. However, in my turn, none of my men, in any of those hexes, knew that Russians were there!!!!! They are fighting at knife range, yet, lose spotting???? That's clearly a huge engine flaw. *** They lose a squad and a sniper as they counter agressively, and we lose a squad.

Turn Nine:

5 squads, a sniper team, and a T-34 die. We lose an aux flampanzer. *** We kill a sniper and a squad. However, we lose a squad, surrendered! - to that sniper.

Turn Ten:

We get an ATR team and 2 squads. However, for the most part we are stalemated. *** They lose 4 more squads and 2 molotov projector teams and we lose a squad.

Turn Eleven:

We get a bunker, a sniper and 4 squads. We lose a squad. We have half the repair building and most of AH1 for all that will matter. *** They lose 4 more squads, and a molotov team and we lose one. We now have to retake VHs in AH2, as two molotov teams popped up, at the end of the game, in VHs.

Turn Twelve:

We get the other molotov team and retake the VHs. We get another squad and take another repair shop VH. *** They lose two more squads and an ATR team.

Turn Thirteen:

We kill two more squads and take the repair building. *** They lose 3 squads and the VH, but retake a VH in AH2. *SFMB*

Turn Fourteen:

We consolidate and get a squad. *** They lose a squad.

We somehow pull off a MV with a score of 9240 to 2293.

German Losses: 315 men, 1 AFV.
Soviet Losses: 925 men, 19 arty, 17 AFV

PoWs: 0 (56 on campaign)

Between Scens: Last Stug upgraded, one more FlakPz upgraded.

Next Mission: Oh, we get to try and take the factory again.

Alex

_____________________________

"Tonight a dynasty is born." Ricky Proehl, then of the Saint Louis Rams. He was right! Go Pats! Winners of Super Bowls 36, 38 and 39.

(in reply to Alexandra)
Post #: 55
- 1/15/2003 11:29:02 PM   
Grenadier


Posts: 981
Joined: 5/10/2000
From: Newport Beach, CA USA
Status: offline
[QUOTE]The nameless building has a 20 per turn VH. Why??? If it's not important enough of a building to have a name what makes it's possession any more critical than any of the other buildings?[/QUOTE]

The building overlooks the open railyard and has a good field of fire. It also protects the center between the Repair shops and the Assembly Halls.
[QUOTE]Now, here I have a complaint. In not one, not two, but *three* different hexes, enemy squads that popped up engaged my troops in HtH. That's fine and is rather cool of the AI to initiate. However, in my turn, none of my men, in any of those hexes, knew that Russians were there!!!!! They are fighting at knife range, yet, lose spotting???? That's clearly a huge engine flaw. *** [/QUOTE]
Think of those squads that could not spot the Russkies as regrouping behind a giant lathe with the Ivans on the other side. Did you try the z key in the same hex? That will usually bring them out again. It is very difficult to emulate close in fighting in this game and the hexes are covering 50 square meters. There was a lot of equipment to hide behind in the factories.

_____________________________

Brent Grenadier Richards




__________________


[url=http://

(in reply to Alexandra)
Post #: 56
- 1/16/2003 9:08:47 AM   
Alexandra


Posts: 546
Joined: 12/7/2000
From: USA
Status: offline
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Grenadier
[B]The building overlooks the open railyard and has a good field of fire. It also protects the center between the Repair shops and the Assembly Halls.


lol!!! After first contect there's no LOS anywhere in the complex. 1 hex constantly :)


Think of those squads that could not spot the Russkies as regrouping behind a giant lathe with the Ivans on the other side. Did you try the z key in the same hex? That will usually bring them out again. It is very difficult to emulate close in fighting in this game and the hexes are covering 50 square meters. There was a lot of equipment to hide behind in the factories. [/B][/QUOTE]

Well, yes, I could see that - if those men, assumed to be hiding behind lathe's could not attack my guys outside the building. As I said, it's an engine flaw, not a design one - and even if they were hiding behind lathe's, my men would know they were there, i.e., in the hex.

I did not.

Until they fired.

Alex

_____________________________

"Tonight a dynasty is born." Ricky Proehl, then of the Saint Louis Rams. He was right! Go Pats! Winners of Super Bowls 36, 38 and 39.

(in reply to Alexandra)
Post #: 57
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