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RE: How-To Fleet Posture - 12/18/2011 1:22:36 AM

Bentley264

Posts: 32
Joined: 1/14/2011
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I wanted to thank you for your post, it has been very helpful, and I have used your suggestions to good effect, I am winning too easily on normal, and must now progress to hard.

I do design my own ships and bases. It is not quite as tedious as you think. Once you have made your initial modifications (no, I don't start from scratch, but I put fighter bays on most of my ships and bases), save the designs for your next game - helps alot.
NEVER turn on automatic designs or you must start your designs over. When you research a few techs that significantly advances you, select all the designs and cilck the upgrade button. The game will upgrade any significant advances, yet keep your previous design plan. The only time you need to manually edit the ship's designs is when they get larger, or when a new component (such as damage control or ion cannon) becomes available. Everything else upgrades intuitively - such as fuel cells to dense fuel cells, or fighter bays to advanced fighter bays, or armor to Enhanced armor. You do need to maually retrofit, but this can be done one fleet at a time via the F12 screen. That works better for me anyways, so all fleets aren't down at once.

Anyway, hopes this helps if you go for your own ship designs.

_____________________________

Bob

(in reply to Gelatinous Cube)

Post #: 31

RE: How-To Fleet Posture - 12/18/2011 1:31:57 AM

Gelatinous Cube

Posts: 696
Joined: 10/26/2011
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It does. Thanks for that. I've been messing with some smaller games to get the hang of designing my own ships, before getting too far ahead in the Polish AAR. It introduces some challenges I didn't expect--like now, all of a sudden, I find myself caring about what order all my ships retrofit in. I never cared about that before.

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Can Poland Into Space?

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Post #: 32

RE: How-To Fleet Posture - 12/28/2011 10:16:45 PM

mllange

Posts: 527
Joined: 2/5/2005
Status: offline

Everything makes sense (of a sort) however the photos are no longer available due to account space limitations. Does anyone have a cached or PDF version of this information that includes the images?

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There's a simple answer to every complex question - and it's wrong.
-Umberto Eco

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Post #: 33

RE: How-To Fleet Posture - 12/29/2011 12:09:22 AM

Gelatinous Cube

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Joined: 10/26/2011
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They, and my AAR, should be back on the 10th, when my monthly photobucket bandwidth resets. If this happens again, I'll probably just pay the fee and upgrade.

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Can Poland Into Space?

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Post #: 34

RE: How-To Fleet Posture - 12/30/2011 3:08:44 PM

netjam99

Posts: 64
Joined: 7/18/2004
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I would like to see the pictures, the quality of this thread/guide caused your hosting service to be swamped! But regardless I learmed a lot from your text and have implemented your system. Great stuff.

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Post #: 35

RE: How-To Fleet Posture - 1/11/2012 8:25:15 AM

onomastikon

Posts: 193
Joined: 11/29/2011
Status: offline

I really appreciate your posts and all of the time you spent in detailing this! Thank you!
You probably won't believe it, but I am still having a bit of a problem understanding / getting it all to work. Do you mind if I post here a couple of questions?
Basically, I think it boils down to: when do I hit "automate"?

- If I want to coordinate an attack, I get my groups of fleets, set "Attack Target" for each which tells that fleet to go after that target (basically, up to here, as if I were manually telling it to attack without posturing, right?), then I set its range (which tells it what to attack AFTER it is done attacking the thing I set for "Set Attack Target"), then I hit "Attack Mode" (sword icon), which sends it on its way? Or do I need to hit "Automate" to send it on its way? Or do I need to hit "automate" after it is underway? Or do I not need to hit automate?
Basically, I am confused as to what is actually the status of my ships when they are sitting around in their fleet positions with "no mission".
- Is "Set Home Base" important for an attack fleet? (When will it go back to its home base? If they need to retreat? Refuel?)
- If I want my fleets to defend, I need to set home base, which is like a "defend target" to the attack posture's "attack target" (right?), then set range -- then hit automate? Or will they be defending if I do not hit automate?

- When I fleet is postured to defend, and set on automated, will it refuel when needed? (Or how can I tell it: when "needed" is really needed?!) When postured to attack also ditto?

- I sometimes have resupply ships which I deploy to gas clouds underway so they have a stock on fuel; is there a way to set my fleet to that ship as a home base? I can't seem to make that work.

Thanks so much!

(in reply to Gelatinous Cube)

Post #: 36

RE: How-To Fleet Posture - 1/11/2012 3:49:15 PM

scotten_usa

Posts: 196
Joined: 12/9/2005
Status: offline

I've printed the first page to PDF if anyone would like to download and save:

https://sites.google.com/site/scotten/default/How-ToFleetPosture.pdf

Hopefully this doesn't break any rules here...

(in reply to onomastikon)

Post #: 37

RE: How-To Fleet Posture - 1/13/2012 1:31:20 AM

apd1004

Posts: 158
Joined: 8/1/2006
Status: offline

I've been playing this game for a long time, on and off, and have never messed with automation for ship/base design and fleet control. I've noticed with Legends now, if I try to micromanage ships like I have always done, it doesn't work like pre-Legends and ships seem to want to go off and attack something all the time compared to before when they were a lot easier to control and if I told them to sit tight somewhere and left them on manual, they would sit tight. Now when I go to find ships that I have staged somewhere, they are usually gone off somewhere doing their own thing, even when set on manual.

I figure this is because even though they are set to manual, they still default to the new posture settings. Not 100% sure if that is really what is happening but it makes sense.

So, based on this thread, I am going to boldly go where I have never gone before, and that is to start automating my fleets. I've been getting pretty frustrated lately, like when I have a fleet of troop ships that I'm trying to stage somewhere to set up an invasion, and come to discover they have gone off chasing pirates or enemy explorations ships and now I am herding cats trying to get them back together. I will still control design because I think that is one of the most appealing things about DW.

I am making the assumption that automated fleets set on defend a base will refuel and repair on their own as necessary, and will abide by their "rules of engagement" as set by the posturing and automation settings. I am also making the assumption that they will not automatically retrofit to newer designs as long as I have design set to manual.

Thanks for the informative thread, I am anxious to see how this automation thing works.

(in reply to scotten_usa)

Post #: 38

RE: How-To Fleet Posture - 1/16/2012 8:27:28 AM

onomastikon

Posts: 193
Joined: 11/29/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: onomastikon

I really appreciate your posts and all of the time you spent in detailing this! Thank you!
You probably won't believe it, but I am still having a bit of a problem understanding / getting it all to work. Do you mind if I post here a couple of questions?
Basically, I think it boils down to: when do I hit "automate"?

- If I want to coordinate an attack, I get my groups of fleets, set "Attack Target" for each which tells that fleet to go after that target (basically, up to here, as if I were manually telling it to attack without posturing, right?), then I set its range (which tells it what to attack AFTER it is done attacking the thing I set for "Set Attack Target"), then I hit "Attack Mode" (sword icon), which sends it on its way? Or do I need to hit "Automate" to send it on its way? Or do I need to hit "automate" after it is underway? Or do I not need to hit automate?
Basically, I am confused as to what is actually the status of my ships when they are sitting around in their fleet positions with "no mission".
- Is "Set Home Base" important for an attack fleet? (When will it go back to its home base? If they need to retreat? Refuel?)
- If I want my fleets to defend, I need to set home base, which is like a "defend target" to the attack posture's "attack target" (right?), then set range -- then hit automate? Or will they be defending if I do not hit automate?

- When I fleet is postured to defend, and set on automated, will it refuel when needed? (Or how can I tell it: when "needed" is really needed?!) When postured to attack also ditto?

- I sometimes have resupply ships which I deploy to gas clouds underway so they have a stock on fuel; is there a way to set my fleet to that ship as a home base? I can't seem to make that work.

Thanks so much!

While I still do not know the answer to these questions, I have further confused myself in the week or so since I posted: I have noticed that the fleets I have set do "defend" --> "system" have really let me down. In a new game, still fairly early (late early game), I got into conflict with a really close neighbor, and had 4 fleets to defend my 4 colonizes near / around his. These fleets had about 4 ships each in them, each set to defend base + system. I got the warning message that an attack fleet of his was set on an attack vector to my moon X; so to make sure, I set that fleet to defend base only (to make sure it wouldnt wander around too far). About 20 minutes later, I find that fleet way out in deep space. A second fleet of mine was likewise deep in space, far away from its home system. My only guess was that they were chasing an escaping attacker or civilian ship. I really doubt that they were attempting to refuel or so, since they had lots of fuel and there was nothing out in space towards which they could go to refuel. But why? I thought "defend" + small area = they don't go wandering? What am I doing wrong?

(in reply to onomastikon)

Post #: 39

RE: How-To Fleet Posture - 1/16/2012 10:45:54 AM

Gelatinous Cube

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Ah, you're not doing anything wrong. The Defend posture works, but it doesn't work perfectly. For posture to be 100% effective, it has to be used in conjunction with ships that are automated (which means that posturing is something you use primarily with ships you DONT want to keep an eye on personally). For the most part, this works as advertised--but there are still holes in the AI. It is not as effective as if you micro-managed a sector yourself, which is probably a good thing. The mantra of the game seems to be (imo at least) automate where you want, but you can awlays improve things by managing them yourself.

Posturing is most effective on large maps, where it is impossible to keep an eye on everything yourself. As such, it is important to remember that posturing is an advanced feature used best in conjunction with automated fleets and a good understanding of how best to use those fleets.

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Can Poland Into Space?

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Post #: 40

RE: How-To Fleet Posture - 1/17/2012 10:27:51 PM

scotten_usa

Posts: 196
Joined: 12/9/2005
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Great post, very helpful. So far, this seems to do a good job keeping the pirate riffraff out of my territory.

(in reply to Gelatinous Cube)

Post #: 41

RE: How-To Fleet Posture - 1/20/2012 12:52:13 PM

onomastikon

Posts: 193
Joined: 11/29/2011
Status: offline

Thanks to your wonderful posts and helpful replies, I am having more success with this fleet posturing thing.

Three things still, however, cause me confusion, pain, and suffering. Or at least confusion. Perhaps I may ask about them here?

Thing 1: I set one of my defense fleets to defend --> home base & nearby systems. I hit "automate". Everything is fine. I can see its nice blue circle. I have this fleet, like most of my more important ones, hotkeyed. I often cycle through the hotkeys to check up on things. At least twice, I caught this fleet flying WAY out of its blue-circle range ... to refuel. In doing so, it exhausts its fuel supply. Both in going whereever it is going to, and trying to get back. Although there is a spaceport on its home base it is supposed to defend and is unable to do so because it is far out of range. It is only this one fleet. Any tips?

Thing 2: I notice during actions such as these (or more meaningful actions, such as when the fleet goes somewhere to kill something it should) that the blue circle remains where it was. That is, even when my fleet flies to the other side of the galaxy and is gone for 10 years, the blue circle indicating its radius remains. I am pretty sure this is also the case if the fleet is disbanded or killed. I have, in any case, currently 2 blue circles in my territory with NO fleets in them, and I have no idea which fleets should be in them or even ever were in them. The blue circles give me the mistaken impression that this area of my empire is nicely defended, when in fact there is nothing there. Is it cause I's black?

Thing 3: On individual ships, I see the order to "flee" enemies. I do not see this on fleets. (I once bit off more than I could chew when I went after the Phantom pirates, and wanted to run away and fight again another day, but could not figure out how.) Clicking a bit of space further off to recharge shields and go back in did not work, the fleet always immediately re-engaged the target station. Am I blind?

Thank you greatly.

< Message edited by onomastikon -- 1/20/2012 1:03:37 PM >

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Post #: 42

RE: How-To Fleet Posture - 1/20/2012 1:19:06 PM

Gelatinous Cube

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Joined: 10/26/2011
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quote:

Thing 1: I set one of my defense fleets to defend --> home base & nearby systems. I hit "automate". Everything is fine. I can see its nice blue circle. I have this fleet, like most of my more important ones, hotkeyed. I often cycle through the hotkeys to check up on things. At least twice, I caught this fleet flying WAY out of its blue-circle range ... to refuel. In doing so, it exhausts its fuel supply. Both in going whereever it is going to, and trying to get back. Although there is a spaceport on its home base it is supposed to defend and is unable to do so because it is far out of range. It is only this one fleet. Any tips?

This is a logistics problem, I think. It needed to refuel, and the nearest place was just way too far away. The only way to avoid this would be to ensure that you have a good supply of fuel. I tend to base my defenses around sources of Caslon and/or Hydrogen. I also do my best to control as much Caslon and Hydrogen as I possibly can--it is well worth starting wars over. If the price gets driven up, and you're the only one with a reasonable supply, that's just money in your pocket.

quote:

Thing 2: I notice during actions such as these (or more meaningful actions, such as when the fleet goes somewhere to kill something it should) that the blue circle remains where it was. That is, even when my fleet flies to the other side of the galaxy and is gone for 10 years, the blue circle indicating its radius remains. I am pretty sure this is also the case if the fleet is disbanded or killed. I have, in any case, currently 2 blue circles in my territory with NO fleets in them, and I have no idea which fleets should be in them or even ever were in them. The blue circles give me the mistaken impression that this area of my empire is nicely defended, when in fact there is nothing there. Is it cause I's black?

Pretty sure that's working as designed. The way I use it is like this: If I need to use a fleet that's postured, I turn off auto and go do whatever with it. When I'm done, I flip auto back on and it will resume its duties. The circle is just a visual reminder that you have a fleet assigned to that space--personally I think adding an on-screen indicator to each of the circles that tells you what fleet is responsible for that space and how far away it is would be ideal.

quote:

Thing 3: On individual ships, I see the order to "flee" enemies. I do not see this on fleets. (I once bit off more than I could chew when I went after the Phantom pirates, and wanted to run away and fight again another day, but could not figure out how.) Clicking a bit of space further off to recharge shields and go back in did not work, the fleet always immediately re-engaged the target station. Am I blind?

I think the option is called "Escape." When you have a fleet selected, there should be a quick-button for it in the button bar below the context box. I tend to do most of my fleetly button-pushing with those buttons.

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Can Poland Into Space?

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Post #: 43

RE: How-To Fleet Posture - 1/20/2012 1:34:34 PM

onomastikon

Posts: 193
Joined: 11/29/2011
Status: offline

Thanks so much for that quick and helpful reply.
- Is there a way to get rid of that blue circle then if my fleet has since moved, disbanded, or been destroyed? I'm pretty sure I have some blue circles that I don't want anymore; the fleets have moved on to better things, apparently, or been destroyed. I wouldn't even know how to fill them now; I suppose I could build new ships, figure out what the centre of the circle is (not always easy), and assign -- but I'm afraid I will get yet another, almost perfectly overlapping circle, and not re-fill the old one. Ideally, I would like to cancel that circle. Do you know how?
- If you look at the third screenshot on your first post, you can see 8 buttons on the bottom. I think those are stop, refuel, load troops, set home base, set attack target, attack/defense toggle, set range, automate toggle. I cannot find a button for "escape" or flee like I can on the individual ships. Me blind?

(in reply to Gelatinous Cube)

Post #: 44

RE: How-To Fleet Posture - 1/20/2012 3:14:54 PM

Gelatinous Cube

Posts: 696
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quote:

ORIGINAL: onomastikon

Thanks so much for that quick and helpful reply.
- Is there a way to get rid of that blue circle then if my fleet has since moved, disbanded, or been destroyed? I'm pretty sure I have some blue circles that I don't want anymore; the fleets have moved on to better things, apparently, or been destroyed. I wouldn't even know how to fill them now; I suppose I could build new ships, figure out what the centre of the circle is (not always easy), and assign -- but I'm afraid I will get yet another, almost perfectly overlapping circle, and not re-fill the old one. Ideally, I would like to cancel that circle. Do you know how?
- If you look at the third screenshot on your first post, you can see 8 buttons on the bottom. I think those are stop, refuel, load troops, set home base, set attack target, attack/defense toggle, set range, automate toggle. I cannot find a button for "escape" or flee like I can on the individual ships. Me blind?

1. The circle won't be there if the fleet is dead. The only sure way to check is kind of roundabout: look at what the circle is based around, and then go into your fleets list and look for the fleet that's based there. Seems convoluted, but it doesn't take too long.

2. You're right. It's a right-click option. I have no idea why I thought it was a button in the context bar. I can't remember if its a regular right-click option for fleets or if you have to press ctrl+right click to get the expanded menu.

Been a few weeks since I played--suffering from some serious burnout, lol. After the patch gets released I'll likely go on a GPA-damaging binge and post my findings on the new features (as well as update my AAR).

< Message edited by Gelatinous Cube -- 1/20/2012 3:18:18 PM >

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Can Poland Into Space?

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Post #: 45

RE: How-To Fleet Posture - 5/7/2012 6:30:02 PM

Quellar

Posts: 2
Joined: 3/24/2012
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Thank you!

I was nearly at to point to say to myself, that DW is great for me in the beginning, but is just to difficult in mid-to-late game, because war becomes unavoidable. All the time the attack pop ups and no idea what my advisors suggest. "Attack 13th fleet? well if you say so... go for it..." - Sometimes I lost a colony but had plenty of warships - alas they were on the other side of the galaxy, or in a major attack fleet. I had no idea how to do something useful with fleets.

Then I read this - and finally everything makes sense!

First of all I deleted all AI created fleets (and switched AI fleet creation off), then I put all ships in these new fleets, some for defense, some for attack, although at the moment the attack fleets are at defense also, just with a bigger radius. Finally I created 3 troop fleets with "defend only homebase", which will change to "attack target" with only one click!

Another very important aspect of the knowledge provided in this thread is, that now I know how many ships I need to have! *I thought* I was building like hell, never sure, if it's sufficent or to much. Now I know - it wasn't nearly enough.

No suprise now, that I've never had a tax problem... ;)

I'm far from being a warlord, but at least I have now the basics to play this game without avoiding war at all cost. Thanks!

(in reply to Gelatinous Cube)

Post #: 46

RE: How-To Fleet Posture - 5/27/2012 4:14:13 AM

Kayoz

Posts: 1516
Joined: 12/20/2010
From: Timbuktu
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Gelatinous -

Can you please comment on this thread?

If you do not have ANY automation on - for ships, or the fleet - what effect does fleet posture have on fleet reactions? Do/should they stick to the posture-assigned system? Will they chase fleeing ships out of the system, or return to said system once the intruders have left the system?

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Post #: 47

RE: How-To Fleet Posture - 7/30/2012 10:34:23 AM

stryc

Posts: 174
Joined: 7/30/2012
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New player here. Loving the game so far. Steep learning curve but I'm getting there!

After reading through all posts in this thread I find that sometimes fleet postures don't seem to be sticky. For example, I set a fleet posture to 'Defend (homebase) > Sector' but usually within minutes the AI has changed this to 'Attack > Anywhere' and the homebase has been changed. I didn't think that automation was supposed to be able to change Fleet Posture. This doesn't happen with every fleet but it does happen with some, and when it starts to happen with that fleet it keeps happening which essentially means that fleet will never obey a defensive fleet posture order, unless I go fully manual but that defeats the point of having a Fleet Posture. Clearly I'm doing something wrong but I don't know what.

(in reply to Kayoz)

Post #: 48

RE: How-To Fleet Posture - 8/1/2012 7:21:54 AM

Zangi

Posts: 30
Joined: 1/23/2009
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Was going to ask the same question myself, but... I would figure the Automated Fleet Posture changes have to do with either the Automated Fleet Formation or the Automated Attacking...

Who knows which of the automated settings effect the Fleet Posture?

Also: Fleeing, fleet caution may be set too high... or the enemy fleet is just simply going to be rolling over your fleet/defenses, so the ships run away from the impending doom, making the situation worse... but, the fleet is preserved...

(in reply to stryc)

Post #: 49

RE: How-To Fleet Posture - 9/3/2012 12:24:58 AM

jpinard

Posts: 500
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How do I force a single military Frigate to patrol and engage any baddies in a "solar system" instead of just "one planet"? I can't seem to find the option when I bring up the right click menu (when I had the Frigate selected). Thanks!!!

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Post #: 50

RE: How-To Fleet Posture - 9/3/2012 1:08:34 AM

ehsumrell1

Posts: 2529
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From: The Briar Patch Nebula
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jpinard

How do I force a single military Frigate to patrol and engage any baddies in a "solar system" instead of just "one planet"? I can't seem to find the option when I bring up the right click menu (when I had the Frigate selected). Thanks!!!

Select the solar system's Star instead of one of the planets JP, then set the ship's engagement
stance to 'Engage System Targets'. Should do the trick for you!

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Post #: 51

RE: How-To Fleet Posture - 9/4/2012 7:24:36 PM

Bleek

Posts: 720
Joined: 10/26/2011
From: United Kingdom
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Have I missed where Defence/Attack is defined?

What's the difference between defence and attack, surely if you have defend sector and attack sector it works the same in that if an enemy enters the sector your ships attack to defend the sector - in other words attacking to defend.

Confused.

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Post #: 52

RE: How-To Fleet Posture - 9/4/2012 8:06:40 PM

Bentley264

Posts: 32
Joined: 1/14/2011
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As I understand it, defend is better if you want your fleet to target attacking fleets or pirates. Attack is more to attack pirate bases or enemy bases, althought to be honest, I do this manually. So, in my case, defend is probably a better posture.

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Bob

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Post #: 53

RE: How-To Fleet Posture - 9/4/2012 9:58:58 PM

Bleek

Posts: 720
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From: United Kingdom
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Well I set defence, system, auto and all my fleets just sit there and don't defend nearby stations or planets in the same system.

I get the overlays but they appear to do bugger all!

To be honest this is the first time I've tried to use postures.

(in reply to Bentley264)

Post #: 54

RE: How-To Fleet Posture - 9/5/2012 9:29:59 AM

jpinard

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I'm trying to replicate what you're doing but am having an issue with "set home base". I like to play with fewer colonies enabled, so I can't seem to make fleets to protect my mining operations. Are you supposed to be able to set a defensible area around other things besides colonized planets?

I should note, what I'm trying to accomplish is protection against pirate attacks. I hate having to rebuild mining stations and also don't like paying off pirates. So I've been trying to devise a way in which a ship can support a mining station and also refuel itself.

< Message edited by jpinard -- 9/5/2012 9:39:18 AM >

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Post #: 55

RE: How-To Fleet Posture - 9/5/2012 8:59:24 PM

Bentley264

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Joined: 1/14/2011
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It may not be the best thing to do, but I add 4 to 6 fighter bays to my mining/research/resort bases. They upgrade naturally, and it is fun to watch the pirates get nailed.

I also just build a fair number of escorts and frigate bays with fighter bays and leave them on automatic. They patrol/escort automatically and are fast responders.

I put at least 1 troop compartment on all the ships that I intend to add to fleets. That way I can sort through them quickly. Hit F11, select troop carriers.

_____________________________

Bob

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Post #: 56

RE: How-To Fleet Posture - 9/10/2012 6:25:04 PM

Bingeling

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I find defense fleets (sector range) quite lousy at responding to pirate attacks. There are limits to how long I am willing to wait before sending them manually. It mostly feels like the benefit is that they find their way home after doing the mission (if on auto). Also the circles is a nice overview of coverage.

Is there any trick to making them more efficient? Pirates are a nuisance. I have scanners in the gas clouds around me, and can basically go in an eternal rotation killing new bases...

(in reply to Bentley264)

Post #: 57

RE: How-To Fleet Posture - 5/25/2013 2:42:31 PM

necaradan666

Posts: 256
Joined: 5/28/2012
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Damn, took me a while to remember where to find this thread. I knew there was a way to get big red n blue circles.

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Post #: 58

RE: How-To Fleet Posture - 5/25/2013 8:51:49 PM

Crumplecorn

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Since this thread has been necro'd anyway, I'll ask this here:

I've been having amazing trouble getting the postures to do anything useful. In particular, I want to send my fleets to attack an area of enemy space, so I don't have to send them to every individual system manually when things need to be blown up. I give the fleet a home base, an attack target, the attack posture, the 'sector' range, automate them (but with Fleet Formation automation off) and wait. Every time the fleet attacks the specific attack target, and once everything there is dead, it removes the attack target and returns to base, effectively disabling my attack order. If I leave them automated, they will eventually choose another attack target themselves (keeping the 'sector' range), and once again kill that one specific target and then remove the attack target.

Basically they seem to be acting as if Fleet Formation is on automatic, but it isn't. What am I doing wrong?

There's also other issues, such as fleets doing nothing when in defensive posture, and fleets choosing to refuel really far away, even if they are already on their way to a nearer fuel point, but they aren't as important.

(in reply to necaradan666)

Post #: 59

RE: How-To Fleet Posture - 5/30/2013 2:55:17 PM

Plant

Posts: 418
Joined: 4/23/2013
Status: offline

The Fleet Formation automation only deals with the creation of fleets.

You've left your fleets on automated, so that is why they are acting automated.

It sounds like they are doing exactly what you want them to do in this circumstance, I don't understand.

(in reply to Crumplecorn)

Post #: 60