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Japanese AI commits seppuku - 9/7/2012 8:24:45 AM   
Kensai

 

Posts: 81
Joined: 2/28/2002
From: Karlsruhe, Germany
Status: offline 		In my current game as Allies in an Ironman scenario the Japanese AI surprised me and took a small town above Perth in western Australia.

It then took me about 6 month to recapture the base and while there is quite a big stack and two undeveloped inland bases left (which I need to capture before attacking the stack I guess, because they always retreat to the "base" hex), the AI now tries to land troops in Perth all the time. And with all the time, I mean like every 3-6 days a TF full of AP/AKs gets wasted by the costal defense I've build up. There is no realistic chance to capture this full developed base full of units, CD and aircraft.

Anyway, since some month, the AI simply doesn't care, it sends troops and ships into this meatgrinder.

I am a bit afraid now that the AI will be a pushover once it's ships are used up :/. Hopefully this will stop once I've eliminated the rest of the troops inland.

The funny thing is, I had one day until the capture of their "retreat" base, when the cav bde was withdrawn- that was very very mean.



< Message edited by Kensai -- 9/7/2012 8:28:30 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: Japanese AI commits seppuku - 9/7/2012 1:37:51 PM   
Shellshock


Posts: 533
Joined: 12/31/2010
From: U.S.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kensai
Anyway, since some month, the AI simply doesn't care, it sends troops and ships into this meatgrinder.



Of course it doesn't care. It's code working to a script. It's been my experience that the AI becomes more hopelessly lost as every month of game time rolls by and the script it started with becomes more irrelevant to the situation. It makes a great training tool and plays well in the opening stages, but there comes a point where it feels like it's operating in a different universe.

(in reply to Kensai)
Post #: 2
RE: Japanese AI commits seppuku - 9/7/2012 3:58:07 PM   
Stvitus2002

 

Posts: 261
Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

that the AI will be a pushover once it's ships are used up


As my current CG was shaping up like the last(over by mid 43) i decided
to "take over" from the AI & play head to head against myself.
What a mess i found: Fragments of LCU's scattered all over the map,
Permanent restricted units that are stuck on outpost islands, no
fuel at any IJN base south/east of the Marianas,Manchukuo well
under the garrison limit,numerous chinese bases under-garrisoned.
I-boat patrol zones that make no sense(yellow sea?...Really?),
Obsolete aircraft still in production,tankers sitting in ports for
no good reason while so many bases need fuel. In just a week after
taking over i have started to sort out this mess.
I can see why people swear by PBEM.


WO 0/0

(in reply to Kensai)
Post #: 3
RE: Japanese AI commits seppuku - 9/7/2012 4:38:22 PM   
Balou


Posts: 841
Joined: 7/24/2009
Status: offline 		Still, lots of people play vs the AI for whatever reason and they're not going to like what you've just posted. What's your conclusion ?

(in reply to Stvitus2002)
Post #: 4
RE: Japanese AI commits seppuku - 9/7/2012 4:45:40 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Balou

Still, lots of people play vs the AI for whatever reason and they're not going to like what you've just posted. What's your conclusion ?


I play the AI and I've peeked into the Japanese side many times in the three GCs I've completed. I haven't looked into it in the one I'm playing now. I have never seen a situation close to the one described by WO 0/0. That said, the AI doesn't do some things a human would do. But it doesn't always need to. Depending on the difficulty level being played the AI may not need fuel or supplies on outlying bases to survive, for example.

If you want to help the AI you can do or not do certain things to help it, or you can switch sides, play the other for a month with full knowledge of the weaknesses of the former human side, then go back to your original side. Playing multi-day turns helps it as well.


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Post #: 5
RE: Japanese AI commits seppuku - 9/7/2012 4:56:06 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Balou

Still, lots of people play vs the AI for whatever reason and they're not going to like what you've just posted. What's your conclusion ?



One thing about playing the AI...yes it is quite inept (and you are better off playing Japan as the AI, cause at least the Allied AI gets lots of replacement toys and keeps it in the game a bit longer).

However, the AI is always ready to run a turn, and it never complains about your tactics. In other words, it not meant for a really challenging game, but does give you something to do and a chance to learn how the game works. And in an afternoon with nothing going on, I'd rather play the mindless AI then get stuck watching even more mindless reality TV.

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'When in doubt...attack!'

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Post #: 6
RE: Japanese AI commits seppuku - 9/7/2012 5:10:34 PM   
Balou


Posts: 841
Joined: 7/24/2009
Status: offline 		Comforting, both of you. See, I am one of those Mr.Roberts-backwater gamers who really enjoys Witp-AE "in an afternoon with nothing going on" (copyright Bullwinkle). But from now on I will stop gardening my palm-tree, switch sides, study jap economy, etc, etc.

(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 7
RE: Japanese AI commits seppuku - 9/7/2012 6:38:17 PM   
janh

 

Posts: 1216
Joined: 6/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
I have never seen a situation close to the one described by WO 0/0.


Unfortunately it happens, I had it a couple of time. It happens more often if you play ambitiously, e.g. play Japanese and go deep and fast. AI is scripted based on a roughly historical timeline and deviations are not dynamically handled.

It has triggers for defensive stances, for example if one of its rearward bases falls it will use a predefined set of LCUs and LBA squadrons and (in case defined) will scrap together TFs of certain sizes to start a counterattack/invasion. These scripts can have end dates, but usually the counter-invasions will continue until AI is successful.

Try going for Suva/Nadi or Nomuea as Japanese in summer 42 and hold it with the equivalent of 3+ divisions and LBA. AI will come to retake it soon from NZ (I believe the scripted staging base for defense of Nadi/Suva was Wellington, but you can look it up with the editor). The first effort may still be a coordinated one with sizable LCU landing forces covered by a 2 CV TF. Unfortunately as that happened I was just bringing in KB, the battlewagons and some empty amphib TFs to load three of my divs for the next landing at Nomuea, so the forces AI brought was totally insufficient. Despite being tracking this force for a few turns by PBYs from Nomuea, AI is unable to put the two puzzle-pieces together and call-off/delay its own effort, or cancel the reconquest script entirely. Needless to say, the end came quick, and after that AI kept sending all sorts of TFs with LCU reinforcements, occasionally covered by another CV or some BBs, towards Nomuea, but the Betty hardly allowed anything get onto the beach, and those poor lads were easily driven back into the water turn after turn. You can do that with all sorts of bases as AI does not adjust its scripts or share information between any running script.

As others mentioned, you can switch sides and play the AI to sort things a bit for a while. A bit of a problem for Japanese AI as you may accidentally activate the Russians with that (AI ignores Manchurian garrison requirements). Else I find it best to play in a slow and historical fashion, and not bring as much to the parties as you could and would probably do against a human. Else, if you experience such a suicidal situation, and are unwilling to offer that base to AI, you can basically quit. Unfortunately AI will keep putting its navy on the altar and loose a whole lot of LCUs on the transports as well.

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 8
RE: Japanese AI commits seppuku - 9/7/2012 7:39:03 PM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline 		Quit the game and start another.

(in reply to janh)
Post #: 9
RE: Japanese AI commits seppuku - 9/7/2012 10:14:22 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: janh

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
I have never seen a situation close to the one described by WO 0/0.


Unfortunately it happens, I had it a couple of time. It happens more often if you play ambitiously, e.g. play Japanese and go deep and fast. AI is scripted based on a roughly historical timeline and deviations are not dynamically handled.



I was reacting to some of his specifics. For example I've never seen I-boats where he describes. I find them in about the same places every time, but those are places they can sink my ships. I've never seen restricted LCUs off-shore, but I wasn't looking for them specifically either. The AI does not observe either Manch. garrison trigger sets or normal garrison requirements as far as I know. It also doesn't need to prep. At levels higher than Historical it has big logistic advantages, up to the point a base can't be starved out at the highest difficulty. At all levels it teleports ships to form needed TFs.

At this point I don't worry about winning anymore. I just experiment. In this game I loaded BabesLite and did an FP, held Singapore and Rangoon, and am war-gaming what-ifs in China and Burma. To compensate I'm not doing anything in the US sector, even running ASW except right off CONUS. The USN is in port except for about twenty fleet units supporting Oz. It's a strange way to play, but it's fun. I'll probably take another swing at playing Japan after this, or Ironman just to see the new scripts.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 9/7/2012 10:54:31 PM >

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RE: Japanese AI commits seppuku - 9/7/2012 10:44:26 PM   
Thayne

 

Posts: 748
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline 		It seems that another option - for those who would find it difficult to get into a substantial PBEM game, is to make a deal with another person in the same situation.

"Tell you what. For two weeks, would you play the opposing force in my game in place of the AI? Just long enough to clean things up and get them going again. I'll do the same for you."

Also, some PBEM veterans might want to make this offer so that, by showing people the thrill of PBEM, you might get some more opponents. For others, playing 15 turns or so in order to clean up an AI game for others would not have the burden of a full campaign, and make the AI games a bit more interesting for both people.

Just a thought.

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 11
RE: Japanese AI commits seppuku - 9/7/2012 10:58:12 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Thayne

It seems that another option - for those who would find it difficult to get into a substantial PBEM game, is to make a deal with another person in the same situation.

"Tell you what. For two weeks, would you play the opposing force in my game in place of the AI? Just long enough to clean things up and get them going again. I'll do the same for you."

Also, some PBEM veterans might want to make this offer so that, by showing people the thrill of PBEM, you might get some more opponents. For others, playing 15 turns or so in order to clean up an AI game for others would not have the burden of a full campaign, and make the AI games a bit more interesting for both people.

Just a thought.


This reminids me of a certain term for a certain kind of boy-girl relationship I observed in grad school.

Could be a good idea, but it might be hard to get folks to comit to 15 turns (a fair bit of work) and not see the outcome. Best bet woudl be a mutual deal as you say.

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Post #: 12
RE: Japanese AI commits seppuku - 9/7/2012 11:57:02 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

This reminids me of a certain term for a certain kind of boy-girl relationship I observed in grad school.



Me too. Wait, were you thinking of 'uniform disregard amongst the other sex'? That was the one I was most familiar with.

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Post #: 13
RE: Japanese AI commits seppuku - 9/7/2012 11:58:45 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		Like Bullwinkle58, I play AI.  You need to be sure if you are playing stock GC that you are on at least HARD and take it up to VERY HARD 2 - 3 days each month.  Per Andy Mac who wrote the AI.  This addresses many of the issues that 0/0 brought up.

To the OP: yes, if the AI launches one of those deep attacks in the AI variants, it can truly get "stuck".  In my games, when I see that happening (if I didn't get the "stock" AI at the start), I will go in and play H2H for a few turns and get it out of its jam.  One time, it took me almost a week to do that (so deep into my territory and hopelessly unable to do anything, so I had a LOT of units to embark and move out).  Once you do, it will get back on track just fine.

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Pax

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Post #: 14
RE: Japanese AI commits seppuku - 9/8/2012 12:56:38 AM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		OP: Why not play as the Japanese versus the Allied AI? Try for an auto-victory in 1942. That would still be a challenge. See just how long it takes you to absolutely break the AI. It may be more challenging than you think.

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Post #: 15
RE: Japanese AI commits seppuku - 9/8/2012 1:01:26 AM   
Stvitus2002

 

Posts: 261
Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

they're not going to like what you've just posted. What's your conclusion


Did not intend to discourage anyone. Just wanted to relate my AI
experience to the OP.

quote:

I've never seen I-boats where he describes


No joke. 1 I-boat near the yellow sea. 2 more in the Gulf of Alaska area,
where there are probably more icebergs or whales than cargo ships to shoot at.
A group of 5 I-boats were off Seattle,which was surprising as there was little
indication by allied air search.

quote:

I've never seen restricted LCUs off-shore


This goes beyond LCU's. There were permanently restricted(greyed out)air groups
located on various islands(ex. Wotje). Not having taken the japanese side before,
i assumed it was another AI "bonus" to ignore restrictions.

As others have said, the AI IS a good training tool. It's just that some
of it's moves are head scratchers.


WO 0/0


(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 16
RE: Japanese AI commits seppuku - 9/8/2012 1:44:10 AM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

This reminids me of a certain term for a certain kind of boy-girl relationship I observed in grad school.



Me too. Wait, were you thinking of 'uniform disregard amongst the other sex'? That was the one I was most familiar with.


Nah. Mine had "buddy" in it.

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The Moose

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Post #: 17
RE: Japanese AI commits seppuku - 9/8/2012 1:45:38 AM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

OP: Why not play as the Japanese versus the Allied AI? Try for an auto-victory in 1942. That would still be a challenge. See just how long it takes you to absolutely break the AI. It may be more challenging than you think.


It is. The AI never gets tired and it manages every single air unit every single turn.


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The Moose

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Post #: 18
RE: Japanese AI commits seppuku - 6/20/2013 5:25:06 AM   
DHRedge

 

Posts: 191
Joined: 1/18/2010
Status: offline 		nevermind...

(in reply to janh)
Post #: 19
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