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...cannot acquire firing solution on enemy... - 9/27/2012 8:53:37 PM

ADB123

Posts: 1559
Joined: 8/18/2009
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In one of my Japanese pbems I got the following message for the first time that I can remember seeing it:

LCT-63 is sighted by SS I-33
SS I-33 cannot acquire firing solution on enemy LCT

The same thing occured twice more in a row with two more different LCTs.

I knew that my opponent had sent barges to a dot base in the eastern Solomons, so I sent a sub there. I figured that the sub wouldn't spend torpedoes on an LCT, but I thought that the sub would go to the surface and shoot up the little barge-things.

Why didn't the sub do anything? I don't think that there were any escorts in the LCT TF.

Post #: 1

RE: ...cannot acquire firing solution on enemy... - 9/27/2012 8:56:28 PM

witpqs

Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ADB123

In one of my Japanese pbems I got the following message for the first time that I can remember seeing it:

LCT-63 is sighted by SS I-33
SS I-33 cannot acquire firing solution on enemy LCT

The same thing occured twice more in a row with two more different LCTs.

I knew that my opponent had sent barges to a dot base in the eastern Solomons, so I sent a sub there. I figured that the sub wouldn't spend torpedoes on an LCT, but I thought that the sub would go to the surface and shoot up the little barge-things.

Why didn't the sub do anything? I don't think that there were any escorts in the LCT TF.

Stating the obvious, the reason the sub didn't do anything was this:
SS I-33 cannot acquire firing solution on enemy LCT

Just like IRL sometimes things didn't pan out, the game code has a bunch of random number calls - dice rolls - built in to simulate that.

_____________________________

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(in reply to ADB123)

Post #: 2

RE: ...cannot acquire firing solution on enemy... - 9/27/2012 9:03:14 PM

ADB123

Posts: 1559
Joined: 8/18/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: ADB123

In one of my Japanese pbems I got the following message for the first time that I can remember seeing it:

LCT-63 is sighted by SS I-33
SS I-33 cannot acquire firing solution on enemy LCT

The same thing occured twice more in a row with two more different LCTs.

I knew that my opponent had sent barges to a dot base in the eastern Solomons, so I sent a sub there. I figured that the sub wouldn't spend torpedoes on an LCT, but I thought that the sub would go to the surface and shoot up the little barge-things.

Why didn't the sub do anything? I don't think that there were any escorts in the LCT TF.

Stating the obvious, the reason the sub didn't do anything was this:
SS I-33 cannot acquire firing solution on enemy LCT

Just like IRL sometimes things didn't pan out, the game code has a bunch of random number calls - dice rolls - built in to simulate that.

That's what I am wondering about - the "firing solution" part. Here's all three instances from the same Combat Report:

Submarine attack near Kirakira at 116,140

Japanese Ships
SS I-33

Allied Ships
LCT-63

LCT-63 is sighted by SS I-33
SS I-33 cannot acquire firing solution on enemy LCT

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submarine attack near Kirakira at 116,140

Japanese Ships
SS I-33

Allied Ships
LCT-61

LCT-61 is sighted by SS I-33
SS I-33 cannot acquire firing solution on enemy LCT

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submarine attack near Kirakira at 116,140

Japanese Ships
SS I-33

Allied Ships
LCT-60

LCT-60 is sighted by SS I-33
SS I-33 cannot acquire firing solution on enemy LCT

There is no damage to the sub, so I can't imagine that this is simulating a broken parascope...

Three times in a row seems a bit hard to explain by random chance, even in a Gary Grigsby game... I'm guessing that there is something about LCTs and sub attacks that is different than other sub attacks.

(in reply to witpqs)

Post #: 3

RE: ...cannot acquire firing solution on enemy... - 9/27/2012 9:18:02 PM

geofflambert

Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
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Can you even hit an LCT with a torpedo? Wouldn't it just pass underneath?

I'm seeing that they only had a draft of 3 to 4 feet, and I believe torpedoes were generally set to 6 feet or more. I don't know to what depths they could be reset to on the fly, however. LCTs were not very well armed so there would be no excuse (that I can think of) to not surface and shell. On the other hand, who sends out LCTs without an escort?

< Message edited by geofflambert -- 9/27/2012 9:27:05 PM >

(in reply to ADB123)

Post #: 4

RE: ...cannot acquire firing solution on enemy... - 9/27/2012 9:26:04 PM

ADB123

Posts: 1559
Joined: 8/18/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Can you even hit an LCT with a torpedo? Wouldn't it just pass underneath?

That's what I figured too, but why didn't the sub just go to the surface and shoot with the deck guns? My other subs are more than willing to do that against other ship classes. For example, here is a surface sub attack from the same combat report:

Submarine attack near Mangalore at 30,34

Japanese Ships
SS I-36

Allied Ships
xAKL Kalgan, Shell hits 16, heavy fires, heavy damage

xAKL Kalgan is sighted by SS I-36
SS I-36 attacking xAKL Kalgan on the surface

So I expected I-33 to go to the surface too and shoot up the LCTs.

I still think that something is odd here...

(in reply to geofflambert)

Post #: 5

RE: ...cannot acquire firing solution on enemy... - 9/27/2012 9:28:15 PM

geofflambert

Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline

Check my editing on my first post.

(in reply to ADB123)

Post #: 6

RE: ...cannot acquire firing solution on enemy... - 9/27/2012 9:30:18 PM

ADB123

Posts: 1559
Joined: 8/18/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Can you even hit an LCT with a torpedo? Wouldn't it just pass underneath?

I'm seeing that they only had a draft of 3 to 4 feet, and I believe torpedoes were generally set to 6 feet or more. I don't know to what depths they could be reset to on the fly, however. LCTs were not very well armed so there would be no excuse (that I can think of) to not surface and shell. On the other hand, who sends out LCTs without an escort?

My opponent is very short on escorts... I've been hunting them very enthusiastically...

(in reply to geofflambert)

Post #: 7

RE: ...cannot acquire firing solution on enemy... - 9/27/2012 9:41:22 PM

Fallschirmjager

Posts: 6793
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline

I think it means that a sub cannot maneuver into a favorable spot and find a good AOA.
I know from my days playing Silent Hunter that due to a subs slow underwater speed and surface speed that if a target gets past you that you either have to settle for a wild long distance off angle shot or let it go. There is no catching up to some targets.

It may seem a bit silly to have this happen for a barge but imagine the sub surfaces and spots a barge that it missed with it's periscope. The barge is moving at 8 knots or however fast they travel. But the barge has already passed the sub and is several thousand yards away. By the time the sub turns and builds up to full speed it will have dropped another 1,000 yards. Then the barge vanishes into a rain squall or fog or in heavy seas the crew can no longer spot it due to wave caps.

A sub has low speed and only has a very small window to attack. It is not a battlecruiser that can chase down foes.

_____________________________

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Post #: 8

RE: ...cannot acquire firing solution on enemy... - 9/27/2012 9:44:21 PM

Fallschirmjager

Posts: 6793
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline

I also noticed your playing as the Japanese. Their doctrine would probably not even make them give chase to a 'worthless' target like a LCT anyways.

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Post #: 9

RE: ...cannot acquire firing solution on enemy... - 9/27/2012 9:48:39 PM

ADB123

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Joined: 8/18/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

I also noticed your playing as the Japanese. Their doctrine would probably not even make them give chase to a 'worthless' target like a LCT anyways.

I've seen lots of cases where there is a report that the sub's skipper has "chosen not to fire on this target" when it comes to small escorts. (That usually backfires on the sub...)

But this message is different.

(in reply to Fallschirmjager)

Post #: 10

RE: ...cannot acquire firing solution on enemy... - 9/27/2012 10:05:32 PM

spence

Posts: 5400
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From: Vancouver, Washington
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For a submarine going onto the surface to engage in a gun duel (with anyone) is somewhat fraught with danger...damage might very well prevent the submarine from submerging (other than once)...so the decision to do so would be one that a (real as opposed to virtual) commander would consider carefully. A sub stuck on the surface is dead meat to most other warships or aircraft.

(in reply to ADB123)

Post #: 11

RE: ...cannot acquire firing solution on enemy... - 9/27/2012 10:09:43 PM

LoBaron

Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline

I think target size and mvr are the key factors here for calculations. The US LCT have a mvr value of 42, with is about the best any combat ship gets.
And it is tiny, even compared to an average size PB or AKL.

As for not attacking on the surface, I think in case of sub attacks the game does not really discern between a torpedo and a gun attack.
No firing solution means not attack, independent on the subs weapon system in question.

< Message edited by LoBaron -- 9/27/2012 10:10:25 PM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 12

RE: ...cannot acquire firing solution on enemy... - 9/27/2012 10:18:12 PM

ADB123

Posts: 1559
Joined: 8/18/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

I think target size and mvr are the key factors here for calculations. The US LCT have a mvr value of 42, with is about the best any combat ship gets.
And it is tiny, even compared to an average size PB or AKL.

As for not attacking on the surface, I think in case of sub attacks the game does not really discern between a torpedo and a gun attack.
No firing solution means not attack, independent on the subs weapon system in question.

Ah, that sounds like a possibility...

(in reply to LoBaron)

Post #: 13

RE: ...cannot acquire firing solution on enemy... - 9/27/2012 10:20:35 PM

ADB123

Posts: 1559
Joined: 8/18/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Can you even hit an LCT with a torpedo? Wouldn't it just pass underneath?

I'm seeing that they only had a draft of 3 to 4 feet, and I believe torpedoes were generally set to 6 feet or more. I don't know to what depths they could be reset to on the fly, however. LCTs were not very well armed so there would be no excuse (that I can think of) to not surface and shell. On the other hand, who sends out LCTs without an escort?

I did some digging and totalling:

In this particular Scenario 2 match it is January 22, 1943, and my opponent does have his problems with finding escorts for his TFs� here are the Allied ship losses, F.O.W. included, but I have seen many of these go down for good�

DDs: USN � 19, Dutch � 4, British � 6, Australian � 2
DEs: Indian � 2
APDs: USN � 5
AMs: USN � 5, Dutch � 4, British � 4, Australian � 16
DMs: USN � 2
PCs: USN - 3
PGs: USN � 4, Dutch � 1, British � 1
KVs: Canada � 1, British � 2

Plus lots and lots and lots of MLs, AMcs, MTBs, PTs, HDMLs, YMS, CMs

And there is the Big Stuff:

CVL: British � 1
CVE: USN � 2
BBs: British 7, USN � 1
CAs: USN � 6, British � 3, Australian � 2
CLs: USN � 2, NZ � 2, Dutch � 4, British � 5, Australian � 3
CLAAs: USN � 1, Dutch � 1
Subs: USN � 22, Dutch � 4, British � 1

Misc stuff:

AE: USN � 1, AVP: USN � 4, Dutch � 1, AMC: Indian � 1, British � 2, Australian � 1, AG: Dutch � 1, 4 AOs, 13 TKs, 19 xAPs, 7 APs, 92 xAKs/xAKLs, 3 AKs, 1 AKV

In comparison, here are the Japanese losses:

DDs: 2, APDs: 2, Subs: 11, SSX: 5, AMC: 2, DMS: 5, SC: 1, PB: 7, E: 3, TK: 2, xAK/xAKL: 12, xAP: 12

(in reply to geofflambert)

Post #: 14

RE: ...cannot acquire firing solution on enemy... - 9/28/2012 2:46:10 AM

dr.hal

Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline

Actually its just another way of telling the player that the die roll was not in your favor, it just makes your bad luck a little more palatable.

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Post #: 15

RE: ...cannot acquire firing solution on enemy... - 9/28/2012 5:08:37 AM

geofflambert

Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline

You can't make more palatable the entire Japanese fleet passing through a submarine screen of more than thirty subs without even a sighting, this happened to me.

Anyways, references to die rolls identify you as an old fogey like me. The current generation barely knows what a dice is. So sorry, I meant die. It takes two to make dice.

< Message edited by geofflambert -- 9/28/2012 5:13:49 AM >

(in reply to dr.hal)

Post #: 16

RE: ...cannot acquire firing solution on enemy... - 9/28/2012 6:33:33 AM

jmalter

Posts: 1673
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: offline

the phrase 'cannot acquire firing solution' covers a multitude of possibilities - the target zigged unexpectedly, a rain-squall rolled in, or the TDC team screwed up. mebbe the potential target detected the sub & made a radical course/speed change. the in-game msgs have a limited 'vocabulary' to describe what happened.

look at the bright side - your sub didn't waste torps on a sure miss, & extended its time on-station.

(in reply to geofflambert)

Post #: 17

RE: ...cannot acquire firing solution on enemy... - 9/28/2012 8:20:51 AM

castor troy

Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ADB123

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: ADB123

In one of my Japanese pbems I got the following message for the first time that I can remember seeing it:

LCT-63 is sighted by SS I-33
SS I-33 cannot acquire firing solution on enemy LCT

The same thing occured twice more in a row with two more different LCTs.

I knew that my opponent had sent barges to a dot base in the eastern Solomons, so I sent a sub there. I figured that the sub wouldn't spend torpedoes on an LCT, but I thought that the sub would go to the surface and shoot up the little barge-things.

Why didn't the sub do anything? I don't think that there were any escorts in the LCT TF.

Stating the obvious, the reason the sub didn't do anything was this:
SS I-33 cannot acquire firing solution on enemy LCT

Just like IRL sometimes things didn't pan out, the game code has a bunch of random number calls - dice rolls - built in to simulate that.

That's what I am wondering about - the "firing solution" part. Here's all three instances from the same Combat Report:

Submarine attack near Kirakira at 116,140

Japanese Ships
SS I-33

Allied Ships
LCT-63

LCT-63 is sighted by SS I-33
SS I-33 cannot acquire firing solution on enemy LCT

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submarine attack near Kirakira at 116,140

Japanese Ships
SS I-33

Allied Ships
LCT-61

LCT-61 is sighted by SS I-33
SS I-33 cannot acquire firing solution on enemy LCT

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submarine attack near Kirakira at 116,140

Japanese Ships
SS I-33

Allied Ships
LCT-60

LCT-60 is sighted by SS I-33
SS I-33 cannot acquire firing solution on enemy LCT

There is no damage to the sub, so I can't imagine that this is simulating a broken parascope...

Three times in a row seems a bit hard to explain by random chance, even in a Gary Grigsby game... I'm guessing that there is something about LCTs and sub attacks that is different than other sub attacks.

Have never seen a succesful attack on an LCT or LCI, subs probably just can't do it (except with gunfire).

_____________________________

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Post #: 18

RE: ...cannot acquire firing solution on enemy... - 9/28/2012 5:28:47 PM

Califvol

Posts: 135
Joined: 11/8/2002
From: The Land of Yore
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

For a submarine going onto the surface to engage in a gun duel (with anyone) is somewhat fraught with danger...damage might very well prevent the submarine from submerging (other than once)...so the decision to do so would be one that a (real as opposed to virtual) commander would consider carefully. A sub stuck on the surface is dead meat to most other warships or aircraft.

+1

My experience is if I want a consistent submersible surface raider (i.e. sub deck gun attacker) then I must have a leader rated in the 70�s for aggression for this to be most of the time. If my sub commander aggression is in the 50�s it will be a seldom occurrence and in the 40�s not at all. If that same leader doesn�t also have a naval skill of at least 50 then there is a very good chance that the target (if armed) can do some nasty damage to the sub or even sink it. It also appears to me that the game code prevents a sub from doing a surface attack when the odds are it will lose such an engagement- i.e. things like a surface attack against a BB or overwhelming numbers of small ships with guns.

I play against the AI and often use the 6 inch gunned US subs as surface raiders in the sea of Japan as that is mostly barrage traffic, one shot obliterates the target (Ok, even a 3 incher does that). It�s just fun to use them as a surface raider. If I don�t replace low aggression/naval leaders my surface raiding subs don�t do much.

Beyond surface attacks, aggression on subs is so critical that I exhaust all the PP�s on December 8th to get the US sub fleet in Manila to have all new commanders in the 60-70 aggression range (Replace the sub skipper, not the TF leader. The sub skipper is the default TF leader- replacing the sub skipper makes it a onetime change/expenditure of PP (as he stays with the sub). In my games this has resulted in early sinking of Japanese Merchantmen well before 1942. Just like the real war the Allied subs sink most of the enemy ships in my games (more like 2-3 times above real life, early war that is the result of the old coffin S Boats being uber killers in this game). The point here is, to get a surface attack I need a very aggressive commander and for a successful surface attack I need naval skills as well.

To be fair though, I am playing US against the AI, anybody playing Japanese against a human will have to have a game style that fits that mold and my experience may not be directly applicable.

(in reply to spence)

Post #: 19

RE: ...cannot acquire firing solution on enemy... - 9/28/2012 7:10:51 PM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

the phrase 'cannot acquire firing solution' covers a multitude of possibilities - the target zigged unexpectedly, a rain-squall rolled in, or the TDC team screwed up. mebbe the potential target detected the sub & made a radical course/speed change. the in-game msgs have a limited 'vocabulary' to describe what happened.

look at the bright side - your sub didn't waste torps on a sure miss, & extended its time on-station.

Against RL this doesn't happen often enough in the game. Read patrol reports.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to jmalter)

Post #: 20

RE: ...cannot acquire firing solution on enemy... - 9/28/2012 7:26:22 PM

SpitfireIX

Posts: 264
Joined: 1/9/2003
From: Fort Wayne IN USA
Status: offline

I saw this message for the first time just this morning, but it was only after the sub in question had nailed two or three other landing barges.

_____________________________

"I know Japanese. He is very bad. And tricky. But we Americans too smart. We catch him and give him hell."

--Benny Sablan, crewman, USS Enterprise 12/7/41

(in reply to ADB123)

Post #: 21

RE: ...cannot acquire firing solution on enemy... - 9/28/2012 7:27:24 PM

SpitfireIX

Posts: 264
Joined: 1/9/2003
From: Fort Wayne IN USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

the phrase 'cannot acquire firing solution' covers a multitude of possibilities - the target zigged unexpectedly, a rain-squall rolled in, or the TDC team screwed up. mebbe the potential target detected the sub & made a radical course/speed change. the in-game msgs have a limited 'vocabulary' to describe what happened.

look at the bright side - your sub didn't waste torps on a sure miss, & extended its time on-station.

Against RL this doesn't happen often enough in the game. Read patrol reports.

Or Blair's Silent Victory.

_____________________________

"I know Japanese. He is very bad. And tricky. But we Americans too smart. We catch him and give him hell."

--Benny Sablan, crewman, USS Enterprise 12/7/41

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

Post #: 22

RE: ...cannot acquire firing solution on enemy... - 10/2/2012 1:06:09 PM

traskott

Posts: 1546
Joined: 6/23/2008
From: Valladolid, Spain
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ADB123

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Can you even hit an LCT with a torpedo? Wouldn't it just pass underneath?

I'm seeing that they only had a draft of 3 to 4 feet, and I believe torpedoes were generally set to 6 feet or more. I don't know to what depths they could be reset to on the fly, however. LCTs were not very well armed so there would be no excuse (that I can think of) to not surface and shell. On the other hand, who sends out LCTs without an escort?

I did some digging and totalling:

In this particular Scenario 2 match it is January 22, 1943, and my opponent does have his problems with finding escorts for his TFs� here are the Allied ship losses, F.O.W. included, but I have seen many of these go down for good�

DDs: USN � 19, Dutch � 4, British � 6, Australian � 2
DEs: Indian � 2
APDs: USN � 5
AMs: USN � 5, Dutch � 4, British � 4, Australian � 16
DMs: USN � 2
PCs: USN - 3
PGs: USN � 4, Dutch � 1, British � 1
KVs: Canada � 1, British � 2

Plus lots and lots and lots of MLs, AMcs, MTBs, PTs, HDMLs, YMS, CMs

And there is the Big Stuff:

CVL: British � 1
CVE: USN � 2
BBs: British 7, USN � 1
CAs: USN � 6, British � 3, Australian � 2
CLs: USN � 2, NZ � 2, Dutch � 4, British � 5, Australian � 3
CLAAs: USN � 1, Dutch � 1
Subs: USN � 22, Dutch � 4, British � 1

Misc stuff:

AE: USN � 1, AVP: USN � 4, Dutch � 1, AMC: Indian � 1, British � 2, Australian � 1, AG: Dutch � 1, 4 AOs, 13 TKs, 19 xAPs, 7 APs, 92 xAKs/xAKLs, 3 AKs, 1 AKV

In comparison, here are the Japanese losses:

DDs: 2, APDs: 2, Subs: 11, SSX: 5, AMC: 2, DMS: 5, SC: 1, PB: 7, E: 3, TK: 2, xAK/xAKL: 12, xAP: 12

Sorry but I can't see heavy losses here. The only painful are the 16 aussie AMs, and the 19 DDs which is not a high number.. I have played as allied and suffered double losses of DDs and manage to keep all my convoys escorted.

(in reply to ADB123)

Post #: 23

RE: ...cannot acquire firing solution on enemy... - 10/2/2012 1:28:14 PM

Empire101

Posts: 1950
Joined: 5/20/2008
From: Coruscant
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

You can't make more palatable the entire Japanese fleet passing through a submarine screen of more than thirty subs without even a sighting, this happened to me.

Anyways, references to die rolls identify you as an old fogey like me. The current generation barely knows what a dice is. So sorry, I meant die. It takes two to make dice.

You do realise that the Japanese player must have sunk so much into R&D that they came up with a cloaking device.

As to being an old fogey....get in the queue!!

_____________________________

Our lives may be more boring than those who lived in apocalyptic times,
but being bored is greatly preferable to being prematurely dead because of some ideological fantasy. - Michael Burleigh

(in reply to geofflambert)

Post #: 24

RE: ...cannot acquire firing solution on enemy... - 10/2/2012 3:00:35 PM

Sardaukar

Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline

One reason for "cannot acquire firing solution" is when front tubes are empty and sub has only rear tube torpedoes. That makes it more difficult to attack targets.

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(in reply to Empire101)

Post #: 25

RE: ...cannot acquire firing solution on enemy... - 10/2/2012 10:10:31 PM

jmalter

Posts: 1673
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: offline

good point, Sardaukar.

i'll add this to my checklist, where twice a month or so i'll run down the All Ships > SS list, to make sure that all boats w red fuel are set to auto-disband if an upgrade is due. i'll also the the Fask Force > Sub Ops > Show Ammo screen, boats w/ expended front tubes will be sent back for reload/upgrade. now that my game-date is in August 43, i've got enough subs that they don't have to stay at sea 'til all ammo/fuel is gone.

SpitfireIX: i liked 'Silent Victory' a lot, i'd like to get Blair's 'Hunters/Hunted' books on the Atlantic sub-war.

(in reply to Sardaukar)

Post #: 26