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Aircraft Loads - 9/23/2012 5:33:29 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline 		One item all of you serious modders should be aware of...is the use of the Filter for aircraft loads...fully implemented in the 1117 Beta.

By using a filter you can specify which load is carried for which mission.

Filter values are:
2 - used for naval attacks
4 - alternate for naval attack (like torp replacement)
8 - used for land (ground) attack
16 - used for port attack
32 - used for AF attack




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Post #: 1
RE: Aircraft Loads - 9/23/2012 5:48:02 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

One item all of you serious modders should be aware of...is the use of the Filter for aircraft loads...fully implemented in the 1117 Beta.

By using a filter you can specify which load is carried for which mission.

Filter values are:
2 - used for naval attacks
4 - alternate for naval attack (like torp replacement)
8 - used for land (ground) attack
16 - used for port attack
32 - used for AF attack




Wow!!

much easier than using the the witploadae editor. THANKS! did not know this was there.

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Post #: 2
RE: Aircraft Loads - 9/23/2012 5:55:21 PM   
sandman455


Posts: 209
Joined: 7/5/2011
From: 20 yrs ago - SDO -> med down, w/BC glasses on
Status: offline 		Wow!

That is huge.



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Post #: 3
RE: Aircraft Loads - 9/24/2012 11:33:19 AM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		Only drawback obviously is how may spare slots are available on the a/c in order to set up the optional weapon loads. The same order/slot should be maintained in the extended load (11-20), otherwise some of the details may be mucked up.

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Post #: 4
RE: Aircraft Loads - 9/24/2012 1:38:04 PM   
Dan Nichols


Posts: 863
Joined: 8/30/2011
Status: offline 		Can the filters be combined? If I want the same load for alternate Naval and Port attack could I use a filter value of 20?

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Post #: 5
RE: Aircraft Loads - 9/24/2012 2:33:45 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dan Nichols

Can the filters be combined? If I want the same load for alternate Naval and Port attack could I use a filter value of 20?

Based on those values - yes. They look like each one is a bit being set, which is why each value is double the previous one. So figure out which ones you want, then add them up and use the total number. The only catch would be whether or not the code allows certain combinations, which Michael would have to tell us.

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Post #: 6
RE: Aircraft Loads - 9/24/2012 2:38:59 PM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		Yes, it checks for the settings individually bit-wise.

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Post #: 7
RE: Aircraft Loads - 9/28/2012 6:22:24 PM   
fodder


Posts: 2160
Joined: 4/11/2010
From: Daytona Beach
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

One item all of you serious modders should be aware of...is the use of the Filter for aircraft loads...fully implemented in the 1117 Beta.

By using a filter you can specify which load is carried for which mission.

Filter values are:
2 - used for naval attacks
4 - alternate for naval attack (like torp replacement)
8 - used for land (ground) attack
16 - used for port attack
32 - used for AF attack






OK, I've been away a while (computer meltdown) and have only just gotten back. Finding the new beta is a great thrill. This new feature is dream come ture. I have to build myself a new mod to play. My old mod and everything else I had on my computer is gone.

Looking at treespiders example here something struck me right away. The bombloads shown are for normal range missions right? The Betty had a normal bombload capacity of 1000k. That means on normal range mission the Betty can carry 4x250k, 2x500k, 1x800k, or 10x100k, bombs. I get to pick what they will use on each type of mission, this is GREAT!!! The only limit are the planes max bombload and what will acually fit in the bomb bay.

THANK YOU
michaelm


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Post #: 8
RE: Aircraft Loads - 9/29/2012 10:27:07 AM   
inqistor


Posts: 1813
Joined: 5/12/2010
Status: offline 		It worketh!

Although, I am not sure you can completely disable hard-coded torpedo replacement bombs.


Now... does anyone have historical bombloads? I have only found that KATEs used 2x250kg+4x60kg bombs at Pearl Harbor airfield attack, and some early Allied pamphlet claims, that NELLs carried 2x1000lb+2x500lb bombs in naval strikes (well, seems logical, that 2E NELL carries more, than 1E KATE)




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Post #: 9
RE: Aircraft Loads - 9/29/2012 11:41:32 AM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fodder


quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

One item all of you serious modders should be aware of...is the use of the Filter for aircraft loads...fully implemented in the 1117 Beta.

By using a filter you can specify which load is carried for which mission.

Filter values are:
2 - used for naval attacks
4 - alternate for naval attack (like torp replacement)
8 - used for land (ground) attack
16 - used for port attack
32 - used for AF attack




OK, I've been away a while (computer meltdown) and have only just gotten back. Finding the new beta is a great thrill. This new feature is dream come ture. I have to build myself a new mod to play. My old mod and everything else I had on my computer is gone.

Looking at treespiders example here something struck me right away. The bombloads shown are for normal range missions right? The Betty had a normal bombload capacity of 1000k. That means on normal range mission the Betty can carry 4x250k, 2x500k, 1x800k, or 10x100k, bombs. I get to pick what they will use on each type of mission, this is GREAT!!! The only limit are the planes max bombload and what will acually fit in the bomb bay.

THANK YOU
michaelm



The filters have been there for awhile, even the editor knows about them.
Just have tweaked them to handle a few additional settings.

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Post #: 10
RE: Aircraft Loads - 9/30/2012 3:26:20 AM   
fodder


Posts: 2160
Joined: 4/11/2010
From: Daytona Beach
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm
The filters have been there for awhile, even the editor knows about them.
Just have tweaked them to handle a few additional settings.


Thanks for the info.

Now there's only 999,999 things I don't know about the editor.

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Post #: 11
RE: Aircraft Loads - 9/30/2012 6:25:41 AM   
fodder


Posts: 2160
Joined: 4/11/2010
From: Daytona Beach
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: inqistor

It worketh!

Although, I am not sure you can completely disable hard-coded torpedo replacement bombs.


Now... does anyone have historical bombloads? I have only found that KATEs used 2x250kg+4x60kg bombs at Pearl Harbor airfield attack, and some early Allied pamphlet claims, that NELLs carried 2x1000lb+2x500lb bombs in naval strikes (well, seems logical, that 2E NELL carries more, than 1E KATE)





The NELL and KATE had the same max payload of 800kg. I did know this right away (not to brag) but I did check to make sure. While doing so, much to my surprise, I found that the B5N1 could not carry a torpedo. The B5N1 had under wing racks for 2x 250kg or 6x 60kg bombs. After the B5N2 came out (which did have crutches to hold a torpedo or 800kg bomb) some B5N1s were modified to carry a torpedo or 800kg bomb. They then were called B5N1-K.

Anyway, bomb load for the NELL
1x torp
Up to 800kg of bombs, most common loads were.
1x800Kg bomb
3x250kg bombs
8x100kg bombs

Most common loads for the B5N2 KATE
1x torp
1x800kg bomb
3x250kg bombs

Hope this helps.




Edit to remove an unneeded. "S"


< Message edited by fodder -- 9/30/2012 6:28:30 AM >

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Post #: 12
RE: Aircraft Loads - 9/30/2012 4:22:40 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline 		uh-oh, I feel the need to mod again.

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Post #: 13
RE: Aircraft Loads - 9/30/2012 6:02:37 PM   
inqistor


Posts: 1813
Joined: 5/12/2010
Status: offline 		HEY!
I was asking about ALL torpedo carrying planes. Here is incomplete list:
B4Y1
B5M1
B5N1/2
B6N1/2/2a
B7A2
G3M2/3
G4M1/2/3
H6K
H8K
M6A1
P1Y1/2

Ki-67


SWORDFISH
ALBACORE
AVENGER
BARRACUDA
BEAUFIGHTER
BEAUFORT

VILDEBEEST

TBD/TBF/TBM

quote:

ORIGINAL: fodder

quote:

ORIGINAL: inqistor

It worketh!

Although, I am not sure you can completely disable hard-coded torpedo replacement bombs.


Now... does anyone have historical bombloads? I have only found that KATEs used 2x250kg+4x60kg bombs at Pearl Harbor airfield attack, and some early Allied pamphlet claims, that NELLs carried 2x1000lb+2x500lb bombs in naval strikes (well, seems logical, that 2E NELL carries more, than 1E KATE)


The NELL and KATE had the same max payload of 800kg. I did know this right away (not to brag) but I did check to make sure.

That sounds right only in theory. When you dig deeper, you will discover, that NELLs carried 45 cm (17.7") Type 91 (1931) Mod 1 torpedo (weight 784 kg) against Force Z, while KATEs carried 45 cm (17.7") Type 91 (1931) Mod 2 torpedo (weight 935 kg) at Pearl Harbor. Problem is that, BETTYs also carried Mod 2 against force Z, so it seems NELLs either were not equipped for heavier torpedo, or had smaller bombload.
I actually checked another early war Allied pamphlet, and it also lists NELL at 3000 lb bombload (probably same source for 2x1000 lb+2x500 lb).

quote:

While doing so, much to my surprise, I found that the B5N1 could not carry a torpedo. The B5N1 had under wing racks for 2x 250kg or 6x 60kg bombs.

Oh yeah, my bad. B5N2 actually carried 1x250kg+6x60kg against airfields at Pearl Harbor.

Anyway, I also found, that BETTY is listed as carrying 4x250 kg, but G4M2 was able to carry MOD 7 torpedo (and I am pretty sure G4M1 could NOT carry it), and this monster weights 1052 kg.

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Post #: 14
RE: Aircraft Loads - 9/30/2012 7:21:26 PM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline 		The Nell bombs were all external?

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Post #: 15
RE: Aircraft Loads - 9/30/2012 8:01:50 PM   
fodder


Posts: 2160
Joined: 4/11/2010
From: Daytona Beach
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

The Nell bombs were all external?

Yup!








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< Message edited by fodder -- 9/30/2012 8:03:02 PM >

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Post #: 16
RE: Aircraft Loads - 9/30/2012 8:03:44 PM   
fodder


Posts: 2160
Joined: 4/11/2010
From: Daytona Beach
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

The Nell bombs were all external?


yup





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Post #: 17
RE: Aircraft Loads - 9/30/2012 8:29:45 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline 		OK, just to make sure:

An aircraft that carries both a torpedo and 2 250kg bombs on naval attack you would use 2 slots, one with the torpedo and one set with the bombs and filter both to 2, right? And this will still use both on the naval attack missions while allowing me to set an 8 x 100kg bomb load for AF attack - 32?

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Post #: 18
RE: Aircraft Loads - 9/30/2012 8:44:05 PM   
fodder


Posts: 2160
Joined: 4/11/2010
From: Daytona Beach
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

OK, just to make sure:

An aircraft that carries both a torpedo and 2 250kg bombs on naval attack you would use 2 slots, one with the torpedo and one set with the bombs and filter both to 2, right? And this will still use both on the naval attack missions while allowing me to set an 8 x 100kg bomb load for AF attack - 32?


That's my understanding of it.

Hopfully michaelm will confirm.



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Post #: 19
RE: Aircraft Loads - 10/1/2012 12:46:48 AM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		Here is a 'Betty' example set up for various loads, and how it shows in the game. The types of load are just for show, not actual.




The values against the weapon lines are:
G = ground attack
N = naval attack (main)
n = naval attack (alternate instead of torpedo)
P = port attack
A = airfield attack
W = ASW attack
Multiple values are possible by adding together the decimal values - AF and port = 32 +16 = 48 (= AP).


Attachment (1)

< Message edited by michaelm -- 10/1/2012 12:51:06 AM >

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Post #: 20
RE: Aircraft Loads - 10/1/2012 1:25:23 AM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		Lack of torpedo ordnance can cause the torpedo replacement code to fallback to the base replacement. Haven't got that to work properly at the moment as it is outside the normal mission weapon load changes. May need to "re-arrange" the order of checks.

Created an installer that corrects above.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3185062&mpage=4&key=&# Post 107

< Message edited by michaelm -- 10/1/2012 2:13:12 AM >

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Post #: 21
RE: Aircraft Loads - 10/1/2012 3:37:32 PM   
axyarthur

 

Posts: 5
Joined: 10/1/2012
Status: offline 		What about code for "city attack"? does it use a separate loadout from AF, Port, or Gnd? I try use filters from the editor and everything works except for City Attack. When I choose that option the group just won't fly the mission

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Post #: 22
RE: Aircraft Loads - 10/1/2012 3:55:49 PM   
fodder


Posts: 2160
Joined: 4/11/2010
From: Daytona Beach
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

The values against the weapon lines are:
G = ground attack
N = naval attack (main)
n = naval attack (alternate instead of torpedo)
P = port attack
A = airfield attack
W = ASW attack
Multiple values are possible by adding together the decimal values - AF and port = 32 +16 = 48 (= AP).



YAHOO we get ASW!!! Filter value 64 used for ASW.

Is there a limit on multiple values? Your example shows you useing two, but can you use three, four or five?


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Post #: 23
RE: Aircraft Loads - 10/1/2012 4:10:12 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline 		I also wonder if there is a filter for aerial mines?

That would be an awesome way to limit what aircraft can carry out the mission.

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Post #: 24
RE: Aircraft Loads - 10/1/2012 4:16:08 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fodder

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

The values against the weapon lines are:
G = ground attack
N = naval attack (main)
n = naval attack (alternate instead of torpedo)
P = port attack
A = airfield attack
W = ASW attack
Multiple values are possible by adding together the decimal values - AF and port = 32 +16 = 48 (= AP).



YAHOO we get ASW!!! Filter value 64 used for ASW.

Is there a limit on multiple values? Your example shows you useing two, but can you use three, four or five?


Notice that each value is 2x the value before. Copied from multiple post above (hopefully got it right):

Filter values are:
2 - used for naval attacks ("N")
4 - alternate for naval attack (like torp replacement) ("n")
8 - used for land (ground) attack ("G")
16 - used for port attack ("P")
32 - used for AF attack ("A")
64 - used for ASW attacks ("W")

So for example...
N (naval attacks) + n(alternate naval like torp replacement) + G (ground attacks) would be:
2 + 4 + 8 = 14 Notice that 14 does NOT collide with the next greater value, 16. If you added 16 then the total would be 30, which does NOT collide with the next greater value, 32.

I'm not sure why Michael skipped using "1", but if he were using it the result would be the same (15 does not collide with 16, 31 does not collide with 32, and so on).

I suppose there might be some checks elsewhere in the code that would rule out some weapons for some attacks, but the filters themselves can always be stacked by their nature.

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Post #: 25
RE: Aircraft Loads - 10/1/2012 6:11:53 PM   
inqistor


Posts: 1813
Joined: 5/12/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

Lack of torpedo ordnance can cause the torpedo replacement code to fallback to the base replacement. Haven't got that to work properly at the moment as it is outside the normal mission weapon load changes. May need to "re-arrange" the order of checks.

Created an installer that corrects above.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3185062&mpage=4&key=&# Post 107

YES!
THAT IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR!

However...
How to set port attacks? Lets take BETTY for example:

I want it to use torpedo, during port attack, code will sometimes exchange it to 800 kg bomb, and sometimes to normal load, which is defined as...? I actually want the exchange for torpedo to be 4x250kg bombs, but I do not see how to get rid of hardcoded 2x250kg+4x60kg in port attack. Actually, torpedo filtered for 18 is exchanged for alternate port bombload 100% of time.

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Post #: 26
RE: Aircraft Loads - 10/2/2012 6:22:44 AM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline 		thx fodder

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Post #: 27
RE: Aircraft Loads - 10/2/2012 3:23:21 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 4443
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline 		Anyone willing to share data or a modded WITPairxxx.csv with poor souls like me who have little time to spare for their own research and little knowledge about things that can fly to start with...?

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Post #: 28
RE: Aircraft Loads - 10/2/2012 4:41:07 PM   
US87891

 

Posts: 422
Joined: 1/2/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

Anyone willing to share data or a modded WITPairxxx.csv with poor souls like me who have little time to spare for their own research and little knowledge about things that can fly to start with...?

Data for what kind of planes and for what year(s)? Alternative loads (both kinds) have been in the editor since the beginning and there’s gobs and gobs of alternative loads in private mods floating around but they are have different ideas about what is good.

I know Treespider is looking at level bombers. Jeremy’s people have been playing with adaptive ground support for a year or two. (Heh, you should see what the Marines think is a decent loadout for their CSFBs on their Commencement Bay carriers !!!!) Lots of alternatives change almost year by year for many planes. And other groups have other ideas about what to do and when to do it and who to do it to so there’s a dozen or so viable alternatives out there.

If you could give an idea about what you want to accomplish I’m sure there’s somebody with just the ticket. The alternative (pun, pun) is you’ll get swamped by all the alternative alternatives


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Post #: 29
RE: Aircraft Loads - 10/3/2012 12:26:34 AM   
oldman45


Posts: 2320
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Jacksonville Fl
Status: offline 		I will throw this out there. Device 1875 20lb GP bomb would make a good candidate for faux para frag. A B-25C modified straffer could carry 60 "para-frags" and 4 100lb bombs. My guess is code the 20lb bombs as 32 for AF attack along with a line for the 100lb bombs. My question is would it be dropped as a block of 60 or does that cause issues for the game engine? Is there a better way to do it?

Sorry I keep bringing them up but I really want them in my mod but I don't want to break things.

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