Cost of games in todays gaming world!

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Cost of games in todays gaming world! - 12/6/2002 2:29:14 AM

slickric

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Well i don't know about you but with today�s technology it takes less of a team to create a better game with the equipment today.

I don't see the gaming industry lowering the cost of games though, and I don't see this happening.

Does anyone else see what i am saying? I think if the game prices go down more people will be willing to buy the game.

I only say this because i am a PC tech/Gamer/IS/Admin!

I hate spending 50$ for a game and play it for 3 or 4 days and never touch it again.

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- 12/6/2002 5:45:37 AM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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Games don't reeeeeeally get cheaper eh.

My first board game was Tactics II.
I could have written that myself and drawn the boards with pencil crayons, if I had had any previous experience with wargames.

Board games have become flashy well printed computer assisted creations that sure look impressive. I am sure not going to say I can do an ASL module. Way out of my league.

My first computer Wargame was Patton Strikes Back. It was a very cool looking game then (by Chris Crawford).
It would take even a low talent game designer little effort to make it now though.

I can remember the first version of Steel Panthers and the first Heroes of Might and Magic as well as the first Civ.
The current versions are a loooooong way ahead of the beginnings though.

They haven't gotten easier, and they have gotten more complex.

I think by and large 50 - 100 bucks (Canadian $, its all know sorry), it's basically the standard cost for a new game.

I pay the same proportion of cost for an add on to ASL as you do for a computer game essentially.
I have bought ASL modules that were a board a chart some printed material and a counter sheet. And spent 40 bucks or more on it.

You just can't buy wargames like you can bulk food I guess.

Most of my wargames were purchased from bins or on aftermarket only on cd no retail box included re sales.
That is about the closest a wargamer is ever going to see getting any slack I think.

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- 12/6/2002 8:52:57 AM

Paul Vebber

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The games people expect today are several orders of magnitude more complex and much more time consuming to produce thatn the "old days" Development tools help make some tasks easier, but design work takes a lot more time, graphics take a lot more time, Ai takes alot more time.

More peole are involved because 2 or 3 peole just aren;t likely to have the skills necesary.

Retail price for old Apple IIgames was in the 40-60 dollar range, PC games like Stell Panthers and PAcwar were in the 40-60 dollar range, today we are looking at basicaly the 40-60 doallar range.

THe 'bargain bin" has lowered a lot of peoples expectations of price, but when you pay 10 or 20 bucks fo rhte game the designers who made it are getting zero, just the distributor and retailer are making money.

IN order to make enough money to stay in business given typical sales, you have to sell in the 40-60 dollar range.

One man ops can get away selling for less, but as soon as you involve a business. You are pretty much stuck in that price range. And several folks have experimented with lowballing price and found games generally recognized as "good" will sell a pretty consistant amount and price causes little change. A very "inelastic market" people will buy good games and you get very few extra sales selling for 30 instead of 50. or 20 instead of 40.

Computer wargames have pretty much stayed in that 40-60 dollare range for the last 10 ears. Board games are typically in that price range (or higher) also.

I won't revist the "what 50$ buys you in entertainment lately" haveing just taken my kids to see Star Wars 2 at the local IMAX theater ... It makes me wince and appreciate what I get in a 50$ wargame :cool:

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- 12/6/2002 4:09:50 PM

Marc von Martial

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Looking at the fact of "overall inflation and price accomodation" in many business branches and PC games prices not rising over the last years, they actually got cheaper ;)

on a sidenote to Paul: Man it�s really a shame what visiting the movies costs today. No kidding a nice "overlenght movie" with a drink and popcorn for two adult persons. Bang, 40$ away here in Germany.

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Re: Cost of games in todays gaming world! - 12/6/2002 4:51:54 PM

Culiacan Mexico

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by slickric
[B]I hate spending 50$ for a game and play it for 3 or 4 days and never touch it again. [/B][/QUOTE]I agree that sucks and it use to deter me from buying many games that I was unsure of. The idea of spending $50 to give a game a chance was totally unappealing.

Fifty dollars a game is just the standard or what the market will bare in the U.S. and some other countries, but it does vary. In Thailand, the same games range from $7 to $9 per game, what the market will bare in that country.

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- 12/6/2002 7:52:40 PM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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Go ya one further.

Take the family to see a sports game, make that closer to 100 bucks maybe more.

Movies are often tricky to assess. Most are unaware, that at least here, the theatres are only renting the use of the film, they make no money showing it to you. That money all goes back to the person that gave them use of the film.

They make all their income off the insanely priced munchies.

Best defense, tell the kids either A we eat a big meal then go see the film, or B you can have the money, but you are buying something worthwhile with it after the movie.

Avoid buying pop and popcorn if you don't want to pay insane sums to see a movie. A movie for me with son is 16 bucks. I take some munchies in my pocket if I am desperate for them.

Compare the SPI game "Bulge" with the ASL historical module Pieper, with the say Combat Leader (we will just assume it was made with Western Front for arguments sake).
Each game is several obvious strides forward.
All are great games, and all got a lot more expensive than the previous.

I can't picture anyone ever making Combat Leader for the same price I paid for Bulge (unless the market suddenly gets flooded with obsessed wargamers, and Matrix gets 1 million pre orders).

I had expectations of running a furniture business. (don't always get what we want though, oh well).
Cost to make one custom coffee table to a design I had worked out 250.00 bucks.
If you pre order 500 tables for Sears and give me a deposit, I can make them for 200.00. More than that we can talk. But I won't go below 100.00., It takes time manpower and materials eh. Asking for 1 miliion tables won't make them worth 10 bucks:)

Computer games cost 50 bucks to 60 bucks simply because computer games take that much effort to produce.
Doesn't mean the game will be great, but even crummy games have a minimum cost to produce.

I can get a game for less money maybe in Thailand, but then in Thailand maybe 50 bucks is not the same to the economy.

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- 12/6/2002 8:58:46 PM

Paul Vebber

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[QUOTE]In Thailand, the same games range from $7 to $9 per game, what the market will bare in that country.[/QUOTE]

Considering they are pirate copies, that's hardly an argument... If I steal your products and sell them for 20 cents on the dollar is that "what the market will bear" or just out and out criminal activity??? Are music CDs still under a dollar there?

I hate taking the kids to the movies blowing 50$ and haivng them bitch the whole way home how stupid it was (Lilo and Stitch for some reason turned my son off movies until Harry Potter came out. Took him to Treasure Planet and lets say Disney is 0-2 with him lately... THe entertainment industry almost by definition is "you pays your money and you takes your chances" you win some - you lose some . When the "like factor" is almost totally subjective you don;t have a lot of choice as a business.

Movies or sports wouldn't make much if you collected the money AFTER if you thought it worth it...shareware works for software that does a useful task, but not for games.

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- 12/6/2002 9:18:29 PM

Culiacan Mexico

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]Computer games cost 50 bucks to 60 bucks simply because computer games take that much effort to produce. [/B][/QUOTE]I disagree. The retail price of a computer game is not directly related to the cost of producing it. Consider:

From PC Gamer (Britain October)
Top 20 sales

(2) The Sims: On Holiday
(5) The Sims
(6) The Sims: Hot Date
(13)The Sims: Livin� It Up
(14)The Sims: House Party

These sell for �31.99 to �17.99 each. The original �The Sims� took a lot more effort than the add ons, which are a way to �milk� the product. The same company will sell you a �Sims� product for �31.99 or you can pre-order Master of Orion 3 for �26.99 (56 days until release).

War in the Pacific might take less effort to produce than Doom 3, but the profit on Doom 3 will be enormous even though both will sell with in the normal price range $40-$70; simply because Doom 3 will sell better� by a factor of ten (?).

The profit margins on products from Matrix and Id Software are probably vastly different. Wasn�t it John Romero (when he was with Id) who had to Lamborghinis and gave one away in a contest? Maybe the guys here at Matrix have the same problem, too many Lamborghinis and not enough parking spaces, but I doubt it.

To summarize: I can�t begrudge anyone who produces/develops War Games for charging less than $100 for their games. The market for these products, especially games like War in the Pacific are small, which equals small profits. I can�t see any of these guys getting rich, which is too bad because more companies would start producing more of these products. On the other hand, companies that make games like Mary-Kate and Ashley Sweet 16 (birthday bash) for $25 I see some what differently. ;)
[QUOTE][B]
I can get a game for less money maybe in Thailand, but then in Thailand maybe 50 bucks is not the same to the economy. [/B][/QUOTE]I think the lower prices were/are an attempt to fight piracy�oddly enough it is having success.

$40-$60 American version (English Manual) [min. two year old]
$20-$30 Australian version (English Manual)
$7-$9 Thai version (Thai Manual)
$5-$7 Pirate version (No Manual)

I haven�t seen an American version for years, so I usually try and get the Australian version, but if not available I get the Thai.

PS. Companies can charge what ever they want for their products� that is their choice. There are different profit margins though.

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- 12/6/2002 9:35:28 PM

Culiacan Mexico

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Paul Vebber
[B]Considering they are pirate copies, that's hardly an argument... If I steal your products and sell them for 20 cents on the dollar is that "what the market will bear" or just out and out criminal activity??? [/B][/QUOTE]: (

No they are not pirated copies. A few year ago someone or group decided to start producing Thai versions of these games. It is boxed (printed in Thai), comes with the manual (printed in Thai), and includes all chart/aid (in English :confused: ), plus your registration card. These games are sold at the growing number of legitimate software stores in Thailand. They sometimes carry the Australian version (I found out when I tried to install the American patch).
[QUOTE][B]
Movies or sports wouldn't make much if you collected the money AFTER if you thought it worth it...shareware works for software that does a useful task, but not for games. [/B][/QUOTE]I don�t recall saying anything about shareware? :confused:
[QUOTE][B]Are music CDs still under a dollar there? [/B][/QUOTE]I don�t know. The Blockbuster (?) movie/music store in Sakon Nakhon carries legitimate products, but they are also at a reduced price compared to the United States.

PS. These products (music, games, movies) are all marked �Not for sale outside of Thailand'.

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- 12/6/2002 10:04:54 PM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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I like anime like it alot.

I can pay 40 bucks for a Ranma dvd or I can pay 7 to have a Korean import.
The Korean import is identical.
Why, because the Korean importer takes the original, makes a professionally credible looking copy on the right machinery which is really just a completely stolen item in the end.

Or I can download the thing off the net.

Or get a buddy to make a dvd rip and then burn me a copy as a slightly less quality VCD format option.
If he has a dvd burner, it would be an exact copy.

So it can be 40 bucks or 40 cents.

40 bucks is what it really costs though.

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- 12/6/2002 10:42:45 PM

Culiacan Mexico

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]I like anime like it alot.

I can pay 40 bucks for a Ranma dvd or I can pay 7 to have a Korean import.
The Korean import is identical.
Why, because the Korean importer takes the original, makes a professionally credible looking copy on the right machinery which is really just a completely stolen item in the end.

Or I can download the thing off the net.

Or get a buddy to make a dvd rip and then burn me a copy as a slightly less quality VCD format option.
If he has a dvd burner, it would be an exact copy.

So it can be 40 bucks or 40 cents.

40 bucks is what it really costs though. [/B][/QUOTE]:confused:

You are talking piracy; while I am talking marketing... there is a difference.

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- 12/6/2002 11:13:51 PM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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That's an interesting view Mexico, but it didn't get the owners of CH very far either.

You can likely get some products in some parts of the world for varying prices though.

But I also won't buy anything with the Gap logo due to how they cut their costs.

I don't object to paying 50 bucks each and everytime I buy a game if the game is a good game.

It's all about local economies in some cases though, and how the item is manufactured. The world has plenty of examples of shabby marketing ethics.

I hope you have found one that is genuinely ethical, if so right on yer cobber:)

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- 12/7/2002 12:20:10 AM

slickric

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But you must realize that most anime is not licensed therefore not illegal to make in to vcd and sell on line or at flea markets, etc.....

I still don't like the fact that all that effort is being put in to games and I put them away after a few days... another 50 bucks down the drain, I do download the demos of most games that offer one but that is a limited view of the game.

I really think Uncommon Valor is worth the money but such a limited scope of the Pacific theater.

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- 12/7/2002 1:15:36 AM

Culiacan Mexico

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by slickric
[B]I still don't like the fact that all that effort is being put in to games and I put them away after a few days... another 50 bucks down the drain, I do download the demos of most games that offer one but that is a limited view of the game.[/B][/QUOTE]In the past I had the same problem and restricted myself to known companies SSG, SSI, etc. Today...:confused:

It sucks, but I don't know what the industry can do about it. Lowering prices on war games isn't really an option: profit margins aren�t that great� one of the reasons SSI got out of the business (I think).

Do you have any suggestions?

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- 12/7/2002 2:31:01 AM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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I obtained the expansions to Heroes of Might And Magic faithfully.

Sure the Chronicles were shameless add ons that were only worth a pitance at best, but still, the games were always good.

I have heard many say it, that they would like to support a company (not always Matrix). Then later they complain about prices.

Best way to support a company is buy their wares though. And if the item seems a tad expensive, don't fret after all you wanted to support the company:)

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- 12/7/2002 1:13:19 PM

slickric

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Paul Vebber
[B]

Considering they are pirate copies, that's hardly an argument... If I steal your products and sell them for 20 cents on the dollar is that "what the market will bear" or just out and out criminal activity??? Are music CDs still under a dollar there?

I hate taking the kids to the movies blowing 50$ and haivng them bitch the whole way home how stupid it was (Lilo and Stitch for some reason turned my son off movies until Harry Potter came out. Took him to Treasure Planet and lets say Disney is 0-2 with him lately... THe entertainment industry almost by definition is "you pays your money and you takes your chances" you win some - you lose some . When the "like factor" is almost totally subjective you don;t have a lot of choice as a business.

Movies or sports wouldn't make much if you collected the money AFTER if you thought it worth it...shareware works for software that does a useful task, but not for games. [/B][/QUOTE]

Here ya go, I went to dinner with my girl friend I ordered the 16-ounce sirloin she had Scallops well I took a byte and the steak was horrible i spoke with the Waiter and he got me something else. I bought a DVD player at Best Buy and I took it home I hooked it up and did not like the way it felt or operated I had the receipt so I returned it. Morel of these stories are you can't return a game if you don't like it and when you spend 50$ a game and like to buy games like me, it gets a little depressing. About the pirate thing you are absolutely right.

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- 12/7/2002 3:12:23 PM

scimitar

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I agree that games are costly. But there are so many things that are costly: the kits are costly for the model makers, by example. Isn't it, Les?
For what concerns softwares, my philosophy is as follows: I accept a relatively high cost for games (but I will certainly not pay 80-100 euros or USD!); but in the counterpart I want QUALITY games and in all cases I limit the quantity of softwares I buy. I'm documenting myself on the games which are interresting me (by example, I'm reading all the topics and infos about Combat Leader on the site and the forum); then I make a selection.
In 2003, I will buy only three softwares: Combat Leader; Warlords IV and the remasterized version of Wings.

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- 12/7/2002 7:10:00 PM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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Hmmm some examples are in order (I love examples).

Suit and tie, your woman in her knock out dress, expensive restaurant, your steak dinner at a price 3 times routine, poorly cooked (what is the "chef" on drugs?) you demand it be returned immediately and cooked right and for free if it doesn't hit your table by the time your wife is half way through her dish.

But there is no risk that you can pirate that steak dinner is there (well you could have sat at home and cooked it yourself for a lot less I guess ).

Opening night of a film debute you have waited for ever to see it seems. Screeching teens in front throwing popcorn and talking to loud and in the first 20 minutes of film half of dialogue in film is unprintable in most newspapers. You and your date go to front desk and demand a refund.

It's not like you can watch it for free elsewhere is it. Actually you can. I know where to get copies of films the night they air on the big screen eh. Theatres better start to offer better than over priced munchies.

Latest model in 1/35th scale by major company such as Tamiya or Dragon. The kit has a major damage inside. You take it back to store for exchange. Unlikely you will have trouble, as these companies don't make errors like that routinely. So the store likely won't have trouble with the return. Have your receipt in hand though, it helps.

I would like to see the person that can make a copy of a 1/35th scale model, or even a lousy model for that matter.
Expensive yes, but the models are at least always worth it.
I have never bought a model from a good company, that I ended up hating...ever. After so many hundreds of tank kits, that's an impressive statement too.

Wargame of the board game variety. No garantee the game will be worth the card stock it is made on, but if pieces are missing or counters mis cut, you can get them replaced (I have done it, I know they do this, miscut counters happen).
You can likely get a refund or exchange on a wargame if you have a receipt, but you should have a better reason than, this game sucks.

I know that board games can be pirated, but I have never seen it done. I guess you can get just about anything in the far east.
Seems like a lot of work for a very low market product.

Computer program.
No reason to assume the programer knows the subject just because his last program of a different subject was a hit. No reason to assume the person can code worth squat.

Marketing can sure hype, but it can't always produce.
A lousy game is just as expensive to produce as a good one in most cases. Why should all that work be easier.
But whether it is Win XP or shareware, latest game software, or some mediocre file, it is all just data.

Encrypt it, copy protect it, make it on multiple cds, do what you wish to it, but in the end, it is all just data that a computer can read. If you have the right hardware and the right program, you can render all the safe guards a joke.

So if you take home a computer game, and bust the seal, how is anyone to know you didn't just put it on a blank cd as copied data to be pirated?
A store can't sell it the moment you break the seal in most if not all cases. No one wants your not fresh software.

That is it in a nutshell. Software is not a steak, a movie ticket, a model of a tank a board game or anything else you can buy that can be returned as fully refundable.

It sucks, but then that is life. Be like me, don't buy a game until it weathers the storm of opinion.

If you have the cash, eat the high priced steak, buy movie tickets opening night at inflated price rate, get the model with all the add ons before you fret over the accuracy rating of the item. And buy software before anyone has had the chance to pick it apart on online forums.

Me I was very ready to buy Strategic Command and Hearts of Iron. But the views as expressed by gamers that I think can express good opinions, made it clear I don't want those games. Some like them. That's their choice, their money too.

I bought my first Mega Campaign from Matrix with no qualms at all. Lost Victories has known headaches. Didn't bug me for a second. The world isn't perfect. I think the MC disks were excellently priced too.

I have zero qualms about buying Combat Leader. I will groan profusely if the software turns out to be crud. But it won't make me suddenly an advocate for anti Matrix hysteria or demand they lower their prices or some such thing.
I might be a little more cautious next time to purchase though.

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Post #: 18

- 12/9/2002 1:32:23 AM

slickric

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I think I have every right to complain about the high cost of PC games considering i spend so much money on them, but at least with the Matrix games (uncommon Valor) i got my 50$ worth and when I spend 70$ on War In The Pacific.

KUDOS to Matrix Games, not too many games get a worth it rating from me!

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Post #: 19

- 12/9/2002 1:49:33 AM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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The best way to complain slickric is with your best weapon, your wallet.

I use the fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on your philosophy.

If a game maker makes a game that is worthless I burn them with my opinion.

I also don't buy anything else from them. I let their company die.

If a game is made well and it delivers on it's promises then I am happy.

I won't be wasting sleep waiting for games that cost as much as pop and chips though.

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Post #: 20

- 12/11/2002 1:39:18 PM

slickric

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Well Les u are right! I will fight back. I must give a shout out for Matrix Games though, as Uncommon Valor was worth the money as will war in the pacific (but 70$ wow that will be the most i ever paid for any game PC that is.

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- 12/11/2002 9:52:10 PM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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The best way to determine the credible worth of a game is also from your fellow wargamers.

Listen to the views of the fan base. See what they like dislike about the game.

Currently the only reason I have for purchasing Strategic Command right now, is the opinions of a single person over at Battlefront.

I take the views of die hard Advanced Third Reich players that can speak eloquently, seriously.

The views of a reviewer for instance, that doesn't like wargames, and only played the game because he has a test copy and gets paid to review games, is a bad choice of opinion.

That and you have to be wary of the gushing flowery based lovin reviewers. Remember it's your money not theirs.

And always seek opinions on forums that are not home to the game or supportive o competing designs.

You will for instance get little accurate input of a negative sort for Steel Panthers at Matrix, just as showing up at Battlefront and putting down Combat Mission might be a bad notion.
Its only logical. A game will always have its completely devout followers.

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Post #: 22

- 12/13/2002 11:45:34 PM

slickric

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]The best way to determine the credible worth of a game is also from your fellow wargamers.

Listen to the views of the fan base. See what they like dislike about the game.

Currently the only reason I have for purchasing Strategic Command right now, is the opinions of a single person over at Battlefront.

I take the views of die hard Advanced Third Reich players that can speak eloquently, seriously.

The views of a reviewer for instance, that doesn't like wargames, and only played the game because he has a test copy and gets paid to review games, is a bad choice of opinion.

That and you have to be wary of the gushing flowery based lovin reviewers. Remember it's your money not theirs.

And always seek opinions on forums that are not home to the game or supportive o competing designs.

You will for instance get little accurate input of a negative sort for Steel Panthers at Matrix, just as showing up at Battlefront and putting down Combat Mission might be a bad notion.
Its only logical. A game will always have its completely devout followers. [/B][/QUOTE]

I actually bought the Steel Panthers series and i liked it very much but most of my friends did not like it. Another game series that wont run on windows XP :(

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Post #: 23

- 12/14/2002 12:29:29 AM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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Actually that is not entirely true Slickric.

I run XP myself, just the other day I was contemplating re installing Win 98 (I messed it up wih a new video card).

Win 98 is my secondary OS though, I run XP as my primary OS.

I was cruising my games seeing if there is any real point to putting crummy 98 back on at all though.

In the process of installing games, I can say that if you install Steel Panthers original version, well of course why are you not using Steel Panthers WaW 7.1 in the first place hehe.

But I installed both Steel Panthers 2 Modern Battles as well as Steel Panthers 3 Brigade Combat.

They both install and run on an XP machine.

The autorun on SP2 snubbed me so I went into the cd and executed the setup file directly. The game uses a mode of mouse I guess that I call mud mouse. There is supposed to be a fix out there somewhere to handle that though.
The game crapped out my screen on exit though, no biggie, just turn off computer eh.
I could not find a satisfactory uninstall routine though.

SP3 had a functional autorun and it provides its own shortcuts. Otherwise the mouse and monitor comments are the same.

I think by and large, the comments might be similar with the downloadable updated free software versions found at Wargamer.

I would have to say, that a person would have to reeeeeally want to play SP2 or 3 to really put up with them though. The mouse part makes the game a nuisance, but they do play correctly.

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I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

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Post #: 24

- 12/14/2002 12:33:11 AM

Marc von Martial

Posts: 10875
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Bonn, Germany
Status: offline

[QUOTE]I actually bought the Steel Panthers series and i liked it very much but most of my friends did not like it. Another game series that wont run on windows XP[/QUOTE]

Well it runs on both my XP machines without any problems.

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Post #: 25

- 12/14/2002 1:27:10 AM

AlBW

Posts: 40
Joined: 10/15/2002
From: Middle of the center strip
Status: offline

[QUOTE]If a game maker makes a game that is worthless I burn them with my opinion.
I also don't buy anything else from them. I let their company die.
If a game is made well and it delivers on it's promises then I am happy. [/QUOTE]

To use someone else's restaurant analogy, if I get a bad meal, I won't eat there again. Wargames a similar. Having gamed many years, I've been burned more times than I care to remember. Almost gave up on gaming altogether. However, companies such as HPS and Matrix came along (to use my two favorites as examples) and sort of "restored my faith". Some games I have from them I play a lot, and others I have played very little. Fortunately, I have the means to support their efforts. In the unlikely event either company was to produce a "clunker" I would still be inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt. To other companies I would not extend such consideration.

Just my .02

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Post #: 26

- 12/14/2002 1:59:57 AM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline

Personally I think Matrix went to far trying to please us with remake after remake of Steel Panthers WaW just to satisfy ever last fringe opinion.

Now to contrast, the recent game of Hearts of Iron is such wretched filth, that you can assume I could care less what the makers might try to do with it, or any other game for that matter.

Yet another example, Strategic Command. My feelings there are merely fussy design opinion. But I can't fault the game for being lousy software. It has lots that like it, even hard to please board gamers.
So Battlefront is a good company option.

It always pays to get fan comments etc though.

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I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

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Post #: 27

- 12/14/2002 2:04:38 AM

AlBW

Posts: 40
Joined: 10/15/2002
From: Middle of the center strip
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Personally I think Matrix went to far trying to please us with remake after remake of Steel Panthers WaW just to satisfy ever last fringe opinion. [/QUOTE]

So do I. But, I won't argue with the final result.

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Post #: 28