Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo

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ORIGINAL: Shark7

Onime, as I said, in an ideal world. I certainly have no intention of recoding an already working game to make it more complex. Nor do I have the skills to do so either.

Maybe in a new game that was built strictly with Grognards in mind...but I have a feeling that what we have works quite well for your average player, and they don't want even more complexity.

I agree. And dont get me wrong, I would love to see even more improvement. Heck, if someone were to try and get even halfway, I'm bet Matrix would be more than receptive to the notion and may even come up with something like WPO way back when. But in the present situation, it seems a little too much like whining (I dont mean you, or anyone else here specifically, just the general "mood" of the conversation").

The idea behind my last post was that this thread originally began with the statement that FP is an allied fanboi exploitation of the game engine which makes the game nigh on unplayable for the other side and how the allied fanbois aught to be ashamed of themselves.....or stuff to that effect.....and I would like to return it, if possible, to that topic because so far I have been completely unconvinced by anything posted prior.

Some very good arguments were made to illustrate that it makes the life of the Japanese player more difficult, but that is not tantamount to exploiting anything, much less (what I took to be thinly veiled accusations of) cheating. Frankly, I'd like to hear more about it.

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ORIGINAL: treespider
In one camp you have -

- "Its a game...the game allows it...so be it....figure out away around it....afterall the game allows other situations that I have to deal with."

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ORIGINAL: n01487477

Is a good concept, but problematic in that taken the very easy nature of Japanese economics in Stock, having a million HI points is very easily attainable. At least we can mod the supply requirement for repairs, if this was extended to HI for repair - I'd be with you... although supplies are derived from HI plants anyway. Maybe a mixture would work best.

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ORIGINAL: treespider

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ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

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ORIGINAL: treespider

But that still doesn't prevent the 7000 tons of engineering material that was offloaded three weeks prior from being converted to food overnight because the player decides he no longer wants to improve the facilities at a base but would rather feed and fight.

As a side comment to this, however, I'd ask the Japanese players if they're not throwing the baby out with the bathwater in wanting to dump refineries generating supply. Sure, it helps prevent FP-type situaitons (and as has been pointed out, and not commented upon, possibly because it's uncomfortable for the JFBs, it works in other places as well, such as Soerbaja.) But once you have Palembang and there's no FP situation, you're left with no organic supply to fix those massively damaged POL infrastructures. You must bring it all in from somewhere else where you'd rather leave it.

Only once I've taken a hit at Palembang...the key is patience and don't shock attack.

I've never fully understood how the damage rolls work. And I never see the damge after I'm ejected when I play as the Allies.

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To the comment above about converting cement to bullets, sure, but consider that repairing a damaged refinery isn't a "supply" situation in game terms either, but ought to be an HI point situation. Refineries are all girders and latticework, pipes, concrete berms, pumps. Not food, uniforms, bullets, or avgas. If the game required using up HI bank points to fix damaged industry instead of supply the whole issue would be moot. Or at least mooter.

I was thinking more in terms of concrete, asphalt, asphalt producing plants, crushing plants, compressors, jack hammers, screening plants for gravel, explosives, landing mat, gasoline storage tanks, etc...that are all needed to build up bases...and it cuts both ways...the Japanese need to ship the stuff in to develop their bases...and the Allies need to ship the stuff in to develop their bases...and none of that stuff is food/water/pol/ammo....but it all takes up shipping space and storage space....which HI points do not.

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ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

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ORIGINAL: treespider

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ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

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ORIGINAL: treespider

But that still doesn't prevent the 7000 tons of engineering material that was offloaded three weeks prior from being converted to food overnight because the player decides he no longer wants to improve the facilities at a base but would rather feed and fight.

As a side comment to this, however, I'd ask the Japanese players if they're not throwing the baby out with the bathwater in wanting to dump refineries generating supply. Sure, it helps prevent FP-type situaitons (and as has been pointed out, and not commented upon, possibly because it's uncomfortable for the JFBs, it works in other places as well, such as Soerbaja.) But once you have Palembang and there's no FP situation, you're left with no organic supply to fix those massively damaged POL infrastructures. You must bring it all in from somewhere else where you'd rather leave it.

Only once I've taken a hit at Palembang...the key is patience and don't shock attack.

I've never fully understood how the damage rolls work. And I never see the damge after I'm ejected when I play as the Allies.

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To the comment above about converting cement to bullets, sure, but consider that repairing a damaged refinery isn't a "supply" situation in game terms either, but ought to be an HI point situation. Refineries are all girders and latticework, pipes, concrete berms, pumps. Not food, uniforms, bullets, or avgas. If the game required using up HI bank points to fix damaged industry instead of supply the whole issue would be moot. Or at least mooter.

I was thinking more in terms of concrete, asphalt, asphalt producing plants, crushing plants, compressors, jack hammers, screening plants for gravel, explosives, landing mat, gasoline storage tanks, etc...that are all needed to build up bases...and it cuts both ways...the Japanese need to ship the stuff in to develop their bases...and the Allies need to ship the stuff in to develop their bases...and none of that stuff is food/water/pol/ammo....but it all takes up shipping space and storage space....which HI points do not.

It's a lot cheaper to build ports and air bases than to repair refineries. The Allies never lack for sea lift or supplies or engineers. Time is their main constraint.

As I said in the other post too, the HI/refinery supply issue needs to be considered across the whole war, not only for Palembang or Borneo. HI doesn't need lift, but it does need fuel. That's a lot more critical in the late war when Allied strat bombing is doing 50-80 points of factory damage a couple of times a week.

I know the refinery supply thing is moddable, and people can play either way now. But I wonder if everyone is focusing on 1942 too much and not on late-war balance.

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ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

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ORIGINAL: n01487477

Is a good concept, but problematic in that taken the very easy nature of Japanese economics in Stock, having a million HI points is very easily attainable. At least we can mod the supply requirement for repairs, if this was extended to HI for repair - I'd be with you... although supplies are derived from HI plants anyway. Maybe a mixture would work best.

A mixture would work. There are two side-issues I see.

1) Supply has to be moved to the repair. HI teleports. In that way, if refinery-generated supply is gone, you increase Japanese risk and make the supply open to Allied naval attack. Using HI would make things easier for Japan even if HI were more scarce.

2) HI must have POL to generate. Supply can be LIed. By the late game, if HI were used for all industrial repairs, especially strat bombing damage, that would create trade-offs which don't exist now where LI can be sourced once the oil is stopped, captured, or has no tankers to carry it. As you say, it would be helpful if Hi were more moddable.

To me #2 is a more critical variable than #1 across the whole game/war. The focus on FP always falls onto the first three or so months of the game, but strategic repair, especially of aircraft plants in 1944-45, is to me more important. Maybe the refinery supply in the Home Islands is important in the late game?

Palembang doesn't have any LI, so if the refinery stuff is modded away the base falls fast. Unmodded it's 1000+ points, pretty useful to fix 300+ refinery damage. That's a lot of supply to haul from elsewhere.

Soerbaja only has 40 LI, but 170 refinery generated. As the Allies I can do something with 210 to defend. Not much with 40. But I don't have to fix anything either. And in that role time has a significant value to the Japanese. Even more for Palembang. A Japanese player could easily consume two months or more getting enough supply on site to start fixing significant damage.

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ORIGINAL: treespider


I think we are talking past each other...and I think there is a misconception - in stock if the refineries at Palembang are destroyed they do not produce supply, so they are not producing supply to repair themselves and it still needs to be brought in until a fair amount of the refinery is repaired.

They don't produce supply to the extent they're damaged, but they produce supply in the undamaged portion. If there is 30% refinery damage the 700ish supply production is gold for effecting repairs on the 30%. I don't play the Japanese, so I don't know the destruction range, but I've never heard anyone here claiming they got 100% destruction even on a shock roll.

I am apparently missing your point about late war balance, in that somehow the balance will be altered if refineries no longer produce supply. Yes the balance will be altered because a Palembang producing 600-1000 points of supply per day in 1944 is much different than a Palembang producing 0 in 1944. The Japanese will have a large supply source 100 hexes closer to the front that will not require as much shipping to move. As a Japanese player I would rather ship supplies 10 hexes from Palembang rather than 100 hexes from Osaka.

That's true, but it wasn't my point. I wasn't discussing Palembang per se. In the late war it's probably in Allied hands, and they of course don't need the help. I was more talking about 1) the macro balance from day 1 of taking away total system supply if all refineries are modded and there is no corresponding bump up in LI or HI sourced supply (and refinery-produced supply is non-trivial IMO), and 2) that in the late-war the Home Island refineries are a considerable source of local supply to be used to repair strat bombing damage in the HI. IOW, castrating refinery supply in order to prevent a FP in the first weeks will affect the Japanese player a lot in 1945. Maybe more than some players who have never gotten that far realize.

I see your point about Refinery repair utilizing HI points, but you're not going to cripple the Japanese economy by making them utilize HI points to repair the industry, and it has no relation to what I was trying to stress about the different kinds of supply that are represented by the "Generic Supply Point". This game is all about merchant ships, their capacity and the supply they carry.

I agree that the orginal devs made supply be what it is because it can't teleport. Without that about half of the Allied war goes away; anti-economic warfare was the key aim of the Allies. And I also ack that the game has only seven, huge, crudely defined "buckets" in the model--HI, LI, Oil, Fuel, Supply, Armaments, Vehicles. (Yards are secondary.) Because of this there are oddities in terms of definitions. Why, for example, does production of two wings and a fuselage, a minor consumption of metal, energy, and labor, consume HI, while repairing a multi-square-mile refinery complex which consumes millions of tons of steel and uses massive castings, eats only "supply." Another example: a Quonset hut "kit" uses rolled steel, girders, portland cement plus manufactured items like doors and windows, but doen't use up HI either. In fact the model almost ignores Allied HI in toto. In Februray 1942 I have 563,000 HI points in the bank, am making 8300 per day, and have no use for them.

Overall, my main objection to the economic model vis a vis history is that oil is not as critical to the Japanese effort as it should be. It's too easy to produce, too easy to move (magically in Asia), and too easy to convert into forms which can't be attacked. The whole of the Japanese expansion effort was aimed at securing petroleum. Lack of it was the single biggest factor in their mid- and late-war naval ops, aircraft usage, pilot training, and weapon mix decisions. Smart human players over the years have learned how to make it essentially a non-factor as they build massive air armies to use in 1945. In hindsight I think this is the single biggest economic boo-boo in the design. In contrast refinery-produced supply is a blip. My aim in suggesting HI could be used for all industrial repairs wasn't to illustrate that the buckets are crude--they are even as they're the best of any wargame I know--but that the model as a whole underplays the role of oil and makes the late-war a Frankenstein version of history.

As it applies to the rest of the game - if shipping capacity were sucked up moving around all of those items that are not directly involved in fighting or surviving the pace of operations would certainly slow down. You might see situations such as Noumea where there were bottlenecks for shipping. Ships were stuck in harbor as floating warehouses because the items on those ships were not immediately needed by the troops on the ground. Or alternatively when one side lands at a base how much supply is brought along to support fighting and surviving and how much is brought along to lay new tarmacs and improve the wharves after seizing the base. A player might screw up and not bring enough supplies to support fighting if they expected light opposition...or they might not have enough shipping to immediately bring in the supplies needed to start improving the base.

I personally, as an ex-supply officer, would like there to be more logistic complexity, but I know I'm in the minority. I would be fine with calling "supply" only food, clothes, ammo, and avgas and make HI stand-in for everything else and require it be transported. I think that would make playing the Allies a lot more fun, as well as soak up a lot of Japanese sealift currently used for forays into Oz and India. I'd also like to recognize the real world need to use up "something", either supply or HI, to repair damage to airfields and ports. Having it be free makes sieges both harder and easier, and goes against common sense.

But knowing any change to the model is not going to happen (and also knowing that my suggesitons aren't going to happen either) I'd settle for forcing more HI to be eaten up doing things which take up heavy industry's output. Repairing refineries and engine plants fit the bill to me. And I would do this mostly to force oil to be used in larger amounts to run the war, and to make securing and transporting that oil a central concern of the Japanese player, instead of the sideline it is now in the face of Indian invasions and considerations of Pearl Harbor landings.

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ORIGINAL: JeffK

Hopefully, while the JFB is charging down to Palembang, the AFB is using this time to create other roadblocks to be stumbled upon.

I think a lot of effort is going into countering a gambit which really only is of value against a JFB who isnt well organised or against the AI.

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ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

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ORIGINAL: JeffK

Hopefully, while the JFB is charging down to Palembang, the AFB is using this time to create other roadblocks to be stumbled upon.

I think a lot of effort is going into countering a gambit which really only is of value against a JFB who isnt well organised or against the AI.

Not necesarily true. I had never seen it, or heard of a Palembang gambit before my game with Canoerebel. By the time I recognized it for what it was, it was too late. Canoerebel's early defensive strategy was excellent and I give him kudos for it. But I believe the Palembang gambit takes advantage of the game system.

I just do not believe it could have ever been possible in real life. As such, it does not fit the style of game I like to play and I did not prepare for it. Knowing what it does now means I will be vigilant against it in future games. Live and learn... and play.

Chez

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Playing a historical game only works against the AI or with another player who will only play down historical lines. CR has always shown his ointerest in doing something a bit different, picket ships, invading the Kuriles or Iwo Jima etc.

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ORIGINAL: Yaab

One solution is to play a DaBigBabes game, as BigBabes disabled supply generation by refineries.

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ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

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Playing a historical game only works against the AI or with another player who will only play down historical lines. CR has always shown his ointerest in doing something a bit different, picket ships, invading the Kuriles or Iwo Jima etc.

I am a historical player, what can I say? I wasn't anticipating a fantasy game.

To be fair, I should have investigated his style of play before committing to the game. I didn't and I learned from it. I did enjoy the game right until the last turn however it is not a style I will attempt again. It just isn't me.

That's why I am thoroughly enjoying my game with Bradfordkay. We are in Nov 43. Both he and I look at the game and apply real world historical logic to it and we limit ourselves to what not only what was historically possible tactically but we also apply a human factor to the game. That is to say, we play as though those 1's and 0's actually represent flesh and blood. In a nutshell, that means no actions that would have been political suicide or unpalatable. So no bloody merchant ships sitting off enemy shores as pickets.

Chez

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ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

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Playing a historical game only works against the AI or with another player who will only play down historical lines. CR has always shown his ointerest in doing something a bit different, picket ships, invading the Kuriles or Iwo Jima etc.

I am a historical player, what can I say? I wasn't anticipating a fantasy game.

To be fair, I should have investigated his style of play before committing to the game. I didn't and I learned from it. I did enjoy the game right until the last turn however it is not a style I will attempt again. It just isn't me.

That's why I am thoroughly enjoying my game with Bradfordkay. We are in Nov 43. Both he and I look at the game and apply real world historical logic to it and we limit ourselves to what not only what was historically possible tactically but we also apply a human factor to the game. That is to say, we play as though those 1's and 0's actually represent flesh and blood. In a nutshell, that means no actions that would have been political suicide or unpalatable. So no bloody merchant ships sitting off enemy shores as pickets.

Chez




Chez,

That's the only way to play, IMO. Good on you for keeping true to yourself.

"Life is tough, it's even tougher when you're stupid" -SGT John M. Stryker, USMC

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ORIGINAL: denisonh

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ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

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Playing a historical game only works against the AI or with another player who will only play down historical lines. CR has always shown his ointerest in doing something a bit different, picket ships, invading the Kuriles or Iwo Jima etc.

I am a historical player, what can I say? I wasn't anticipating a fantasy game.

To be fair, I should have investigated his style of play before committing to the game. I didn't and I learned from it. I did enjoy the game right until the last turn however it is not a style I will attempt again. It just isn't me.

That's why I am thoroughly enjoying my game with Bradfordkay. We are in Nov 43. Both he and I look at the game and apply real world historical logic to it and we limit ourselves to what not only what was historically possible tactically but we also apply a human factor to the game. That is to say, we play as though those 1's and 0's actually represent flesh and blood. In a nutshell, that means no actions that would have been political suicide or unpalatable. So no bloody merchant ships sitting off enemy shores as pickets.

Chez




Chez,

That's the only way to play, IMO. Good on you for keeping true to yourself.

+1

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ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

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ORIGINAL: denisonh

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ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

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Playing a historical game only works against the AI or with another player who will only play down historical lines. CR has always shown his ointerest in doing something a bit different, picket ships, invading the Kuriles or Iwo Jima etc.

I am a historical player, what can I say? I wasn't anticipating a fantasy game.

To be fair, I should have investigated his style of play before committing to the game. I didn't and I learned from it. I did enjoy the game right until the last turn however it is not a style I will attempt again. It just isn't me.

That's why I am thoroughly enjoying my game with Bradfordkay. We are in Nov 43. Both he and I look at the game and apply real world historical logic to it and we limit ourselves to what not only what was historically possible tactically but we also apply a human factor to the game. That is to say, we play as though those 1's and 0's actually represent flesh and blood. In a nutshell, that means no actions that would have been political suicide or unpalatable. So no bloody merchant ships sitting off enemy shores as pickets.

Chez




Chez,

That's the only way to play, IMO. Good on you for keeping true to yourself.

+1

+1 More. "Gamers" (those folks who say "If the rules don't say I can't") should really make themselves plain up front..., so "Historians" (those folks who say "But that's impossible/rediculous in real life.") can avoid them.

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ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

Why do that -it still seems their padding the japanese side...if your going to do that then you might as well decrease the US sub dud rate.....if your going to do something ahistorical with a site. This game could very well end up being totally ahistorical. You should be given at least the historical assets....no matter who it effects. The campaign game last too long in real time to do otherwise.

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ORIGINAL: Yaab

One solution is to play a DaBigBabes game, as BigBabes disabled supply generation by refineries.

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-

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ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

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ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

Why do that -it still seems their padding the japanese side...if your going to do that then you might as well decrease the US sub dud rate.....if your going to do something ahistorical with a site. This game could very well end up being totally ahistorical. You should be given at least the historical assets....no matter who it effects. The campaign game last too long in real time to do otherwise.

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ORIGINAL: Yaab

One solution is to play a DaBigBabes game, as BigBabes disabled supply generation by refineries.

Because you cannot eat oil or shoot oil from rifles. That's why...refineries should not create supply, that is for HI/LI.

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ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

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ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

Why do that -it still seems their padding the japanese side...if your going to do that then you might as well decrease the US sub dud rate.....if your going to do something ahistorical with a site. This game could very well end up being totally ahistorical. You should be given at least the historical assets....no matter who it effects. The campaign game last too long in real time to do otherwise.

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ORIGINAL: Yaab

One solution is to play a DaBigBabes game, as BigBabes disabled supply generation by refineries.

Because you cannot eat oil or shoot oil from rifles. That's why...refineries should not create supply, that is for HI/LI.

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ORIGINAL: Alfred
Would be correct except for fact that devs made the abstraction that aircraft consume only "supplies" not "avgas" when flying. In game the only place which produces "avgas" is a refinery hence why logically, to be consistent with this abstraction, refineries produce some "supplies".

Consistent with this abstraction is the situation that the Japanese Home Islands have a huge surfeit of excess refineries, compared to local sources of oil feedstock, whose "supply" generation represents "avgas". Given the game design, it really is stretching the idea that all those Japanese planes flying could be supported with no "avgas"; that all those refineries did not need any oil to be imported in order to be converted into "avgas".

Once one starts fiddling with any particular subset of the game design, there are always unintended consequences elsewhere and logical inconsistencies are brought out. Whenever one engages in abstractions, one is caught in subjective decision making.

Alfred

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ORIGINAL: treespider

Yes the balance will be altered because a Palembang producing 600-1000 points of supply per day in 1944 is much different than a Palembang producing 0 in 1944. The Japanese will have a large supply source 100 hexes closer to the front that will not require as much shipping to move. As a Japanese player I would rather ship supplies 10 hexes from Palembang rather than 100 hexes from Osaka.

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ORIGINAL: jetjockey

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ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

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ORIGINAL: denisonh

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ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

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Playing a historical game only works against the AI or with another player who will only play down historical lines. CR has always shown his ointerest in doing something a bit different, picket ships, invading the Kuriles or Iwo Jima etc.

I am a historical player, what can I say? I wasn't anticipating a fantasy game.

To be fair, I should have investigated his style of play before committing to the game. I didn't and I learned from it. I did enjoy the game right until the last turn however it is not a style I will attempt again. It just isn't me.

That's why I am thoroughly enjoying my game with Bradfordkay. We are in Nov 43. Both he and I look at the game and apply real world historical logic to it and we limit ourselves to what not only what was historically possible tactically but we also apply a human factor to the game. That is to say, we play as though those 1's and 0's actually represent flesh and blood. In a nutshell, that means no actions that would have been political suicide or unpalatable. So no bloody merchant ships sitting off enemy shores as pickets.

Chez




Chez,

That's the only way to play, IMO. Good on you for keeping true to yourself.

+1

+1 More. "Gamers" (those folks who say "If the rules don't say I can't") should really make themselves plain up front..., so "Historians" (those folks who say "But that's impossible/rediculous in real life.") can avoid them.

+1

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ORIGINAL: Sredni

I've seen this mentioned as a counter to fortress palembang in other discussions but didn't see it in the OP or in the thread proper:

LRCAP palembang to prevent the allies from flying in squads using all the dutch flying boats and transports.

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ORIGINAL: Dan Nichols

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ORIGINAL: Sredni

I've seen this mentioned as a counter to fortress palembang in other discussions but didn't see it in the OP or in the thread proper:

LRCAP palembang to prevent the allies from flying in squads using all the dutch flying boats and transports.

To be honest, the Dutch forces that can be gathered in that manner are not decisive. You can not move any of their heavy equipment without changing their HQ and using ships. The largest forces are the Burma Brigades that start the game loaded on transports and the British 18th Division that is also loaded at scenario start. If the Allied player really wants to make a large FP, then one or both of the Indian Divisions starting in Malaysia can be moved with no PP cost.