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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Scenario Design and Modding >> Babes SNLF Thoughts

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Babes SNLF Thoughts - 10/31/2012 7:09:06 PM

Natali

Posts: 103
Joined: 9/18/2012
From: Ocatillo Land
Status: offline

SNLF is pretty strange, they are like quarks. They come in different colors and different flavors and even up and down. Have a June 1941 org chart for the original groupings that morphed into the Dec to April 1941 config. The SNLF operational under China Fleet did not seem to change much from the original model, but the SNLF under Combined Fleet morphed like transformers.

8 of the original 12 were disbanded in April and May of 1942 and personnel were used to form the other 12. Most of those �others� had a completely different �island defense� org chart and some even became Guard Units or Special base forces, different names but same function.

So what the heck is done with the SNLF? Can�t jigger thing up because they all have their own slots and the AI looks for those slots. But there is duplication all over the place in the stock data base. I�ve immersed into this for so long I�m stuck in a rut and when it gets complicated, I run in circles. Could call Lifeline for help but they prolly wouldn�t get it so it�s up to you dwellers to help me out on this; unless you want to live with my own best guess, which might not float your zodiac.

Post #: 1

RE: Babes SNLF Thoughts - 11/4/2012 6:49:11 PM

Natali

Posts: 103
Joined: 9/18/2012
From: Ocatillo Land
Status: offline

Pictures of the guns on Betio and Kiska and other places and a close reading of the reports shows some interesting things.The reports talk about 70mm AA guns and 8cm CD guns. The AA guns are called Type 88 and the CD guns are called 3rd Year Type. Pictures of the AA guns are long and skinney and mounted on spiders. The CD guns have big recoil cylinders and mounted on pedistals.

I know that NavWeaps says the Naval guns are Type 88, but the Naval Technical Mission and the photos don�t agree. I think the Naval guns are 8cm(7.62)/40 3YT (or 11YT) and the AA guns are 75mm/40 army style Type 88. Another thing is the TOE of 6 Kure and 7 Yokosuka in Solomons and 7 Sasebo and 6 Yokosuka (3d SpBF) in Tarawa that all had �AA� units and �Gun� units and the weapons were different. I think Navwaps fumbled the snap on this.

This is a little important because the SNLFs got AA and CD units and what they got was all over the map but in 4 gun platoons (2 gun batterys) except for the 8cm CD which was in 3 gun batterys. From what I can be seeing the 75mm T88 units had AA sights, sound rangers and searchlights and the 8cm units only had 3m baseline Naval range sights.

So I want to separate the two and change the Nav T88 into a T3, which is DP but sucks utter for AA and turn the regular T88 into a AA gun.

Any comments?

(in reply to Natali)

Post #: 2

RE: Babes SNLF Thoughts - 11/11/2012 9:25:25 PM

inqistor

Posts: 1813
Joined: 5/12/2010
Status: offline

SNLF is complicated, because it probably did not had standard organization. All units were equipped in what was available at the time. Navy even bought around 5000 SMGs pre-war, and they are not shown in any TOE.

What I was able to find - it seems, that there was actually several types of SNLF squad organisation, depending of mission. This is solely based on US documents (which claims, that they also used captured Japanese TOE diagrams):
Japan began war with two basic SNLF platoon organizations:
DEFENSIVE - similar to Army units. 1 LMG per squad, and around 2 GD for platoon
ASSAULT - 4 GD per platoon, 2 LMG per squad, some Rifle Grenade Launchers, and probably some SMGs

Then, there is TARAWA battle report, which seems to shape all future US estimations:
Lots of SMGs, 2 LMG per squad, and every LMG is supported by GD (that is LOTS of GDs)

And, there are late war reports:
1) from China, that squads were divided into 2 smaller sub-squads (no extra weapons assigned)
2) that support troops on islands were reformed into weak infantry units (around 1 LMG per 30-40 men, no GDs)

(in reply to Natali)

Post #: 3

RE: Babes SNLF Thoughts - 11/12/2012 5:14:06 PM

Natali

Posts: 103
Joined: 9/18/2012
From: Ocatillo Land
Status: offline

I have formal toe�s of 12 of the 27 SNLF units and 5 more from Special base force and Guard units some were converted to. I understand the organization and weapon table and evolution of SNLF units.

I appreciate your interest in the subject. It is easy to do all this in a mod, and the mods I am used to seeing have all this done to them. But my job is to make sure a Babes style scenario can be played against the stock AI. So my problem is to figure out how to include the evolution of a units inside a single slot.

I know how. But it means doing certain things in a certain way, and has some alternative options. I wanted to get a feeling of how the community thought. The community does not seem to care, so I will do what I think is the right way anyway. There is a general lack of interest in this anyway, so I probably should not bother people with my questions and just go ahead.

(in reply to inqistor)

Post #: 4

RE: Babes SNLF Thoughts - 11/13/2012 1:06:07 AM

el cid again

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline

Naval organization tends to be task oriented in general. In fact, the Japanese Naval Infantry once fielded a de facto Division (at Shanghai) - early in what is properly WWII - but we don't count it because we were not yet in the fight! [For Japan, fighting is continuous from 1937 to 1945 - or by some rekonings - 1935 to 1945 - depending on when you think the "War of Resistance" as the Chinese call it began?]

7 cm guns are 76 mm and have the same type number as Army AA - but it is a different gun - of naval origin.

I have a rather complex spreadsheet of the details of every sort of SNLF organization - down to the last item - if anyone is interested. I built it at the National Diet Library with the help of a retired Japanese captain who helps researchers understand the Japanese documents. The official history is monumental, but virtually none of it is translated - and it is very hard to read even for Japanese scholars. Much of the terminology has been lost - even if we see an image if the original document - what was meant is not always clear.

One reason for the change in organization over time was the shift from offensive to defensive operations. Another was the development of new concepts, such as amphibious tanks, which long were not available. Yet another factor was simply what was available. It wasn't a case of "that is great, get some" - it is "we have these - lets figure out how to work em into the organization."

(in reply to Natali)

Post #: 5

RE: Babes SNLF Thoughts - 11/13/2012 4:51:12 PM

Natali

Posts: 103
Joined: 9/18/2012
From: Ocatillo Land
Status: offline

Don�t know where you are located, but I asked around and got all my toe�s from translations. I got a volume index from Akira Takizawa and gave interlibrary loan at UNLV my wish list. They got most of them from Princeton and San Diego and a couple other places, and most of those were translations. So translations are around. I think 1/3 are done by now in some way. I got my notes and data from seven translations volumes,
14 Minami taiheiy� rikugun sakusen (pt.1): Poruto Moresubi - Ga shima shoki sakusen: Army Operations in the South Pacific (pt.1): Port Moresby to the First Phase of Guadalcanal. (1968)
28 Minami taiheiy� rikugun sakusen (pt.2): Gadarukanaru - Buna sakusen: Army Operations in the South Pacific (pt.2): Guadalcanal - Buna Operations. (1968)
49 Nant� h�men kaigun sakusen (pt.1): Southeast Area Naval Operations (pt.1): Until Guadalcanal Reinforcement. (1971)
83 Nant� h�men kaigun sakusen (pt.2): Southeast Area Naval Operations (pt.2): Until Guadalcanal Withdrawal. (1975)
96 Nant� h�men kaigun sakusen (pt.3): Southeast Area Naval Operations (pt.3): After Withdrawal from Guadalcanal. (1976)
38 Ch�bu taiheiy� h�men kaigun sakusen (pt.1): Central Pacific Area Naval Operations (pt.1): Before May 1942. (1970)
54 Nansei h�men kaigun sakusen: Dai Ni-Dan sakusen irai: Southwest Area Naval Operations: From Second Phase Operations Onwards. (1972)

Volume 62, Ch�bu taiheiy� h�men kaigun sakusen (pt.2): Central Pacific Area Naval Operations (pt.2): After June 1942. 1973) was only in Japanese, but the tables were clear and I got super help from two Japanese students there. The ones from Princeton had notes attached by R. Frank, the guy who wrote the Gurdalcanal book, and one San Diego book had tons of notes by A. Coox. That was way special!

I costs some money but it�s cheaper than learning Japanese

< Message edited by Natali -- 11/13/2012 4:52:33 PM >

(in reply to el cid again)

Post #: 6

RE: Babes SNLF Thoughts - 11/13/2012 7:13:19 PM

Natali

Posts: 103
Joined: 9/18/2012
From: Ocatillo Land
Status: offline

El_cid_again, I have tons of tables of my own. The Japanese pages have things listed by their symbols a little like the German Kriegsgliederungen but in columns and not in boxes. The translation pages have all this is in the typical box flow chart form. I just put it into my own table format. These are what I have. Some of them I have for 2 or 3 evolutions.

1st Special Base Force (ex 7th Kure)
3rd Special Base Force (ex 6th Yokosuka)
10th Special Base Force (ex 2nd /2nd Yokosuka)
22nd Naval Guard (ex 2nd Kure)
23rd Naval Guard (ex 1st Kure)
88th Naval Guard (ex 6th Kure)
89th Naval Guard (ex 7th Yokosuka)
1st Maizuru
2nd Maizuru
4th Maizuru
1st Sasebo
2nd Sasebo
5th Sasebo
6th Sasebo
7th Sasebo
1st/1st and 2nd/1st Yokosuka
1st/2nd and 2nd/2nd Yokosuka
3rd Yokosuka
5th Yokosuka
6th Yokosuka
7th Yokosuka
1st Kure
2nd Kure
6th Kure

If you want any of this send me a pm and I�ll put you in touch with the archive keeper and he�ll send you what you ask for.

By the way, there never was a SNLF �Division�. In Shanghai or anywhere else. You might be confused by translations. The symbol for �Division (Unit)� like 38th Army Division, was different from �Division (Portion)� like Navy Division of IJGHQ. Translaters use same term for each symbol. Maybe your Shanghai SNLF �division� was just the Navy �portion�.

There was only about 18,000 Navy people altogether in East China (what is now Shanghai, Jiangsu, and Zheijiang Provinces) from 1935 till 1944 and most of those were base and support persons and there wasn�t way enough infantry guard or SNLF units to make up a dink regiment, much less a division.

[edit] It's a lot easier when you look at facing Japanese and Translated pages side by side. You can see what the Japanese characters are for the two different "division" translations and get a good grip on what is meant by a description of something. The Romanji is great because it has separate characters for each of these. Kanji isn't so good because even the Japanese collapsed things. You obviously must understand this.

Earnestly hope you will send a pm, because you seem to know things and my people are always looking for new sources of info.

< Message edited by Natali -- 11/13/2012 7:48:12 PM >

(in reply to Natali)

Post #: 7

RE: Babes SNLF Thoughts - 11/20/2012 8:04:59 PM

Natali

Posts: 103
Joined: 9/18/2012
From: Ocatillo Land
Status: offline

Boy, that was a bust. I�m getting the distinct feeling that sanity check is a four letter word in some places.

Did get the whole BF/Guard/SNLF/JNAF thing figured out. My translations have lists of IJN AA units and time of arrive at Fleet and BF HQs but there aren�t any IJN AA units in the data and no space to put them. IJN Hikojo and Suijoki units just had mechanics and armorers and cooks and a few AAMGs. A lot of the AA units got glommed up by the BFs or added to Guard Units as #3, or 4, or 5, or 6 company. So that�s where they will go � out of the AF Bns and into the land elements.

It took four margaritas and a long evening to go thru every page and count them all up and get them listed in the spreadsheet to the right Fleet or BF HQ for most of their history. Don�t try this at home guys because it makes you tired and depletes your stamina, and you stay up late so of course the wif is waiting and getting randy, and you find you can�t get beyond al-dente, and of course the wif gets way pissed, and you end up like a piece of burnt toast.

This cost me a bracelet charm and a weekend in Laughlin. She lost at the slots, I won at blackjack, the room was choice, I took the pill, and everything is good now. So, hope you people like this because this cost some pain to get done.

(in reply to Natali)

Post #: 8