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Oh Bugger...... - 12/31/2011 1:30:34 PM   
Miller


Posts: 2226
Joined: 9/14/2004
From: Ashington, England.
Status: offline 		Night Time Surface Combat, near Vizagapatnam at 44,42, Range 3,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga, Shell hits 28, heavy fires, heavy damage
CV Akagi, Shell hits 3, on fire
BB Nagato, Shell hits 2
BB Mutsu, Shell hits 2, on fire
CLAA Tenryu, Shell hits 1
CLAA Tatsuta, Shell hits 5, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Isokaze
DD Akatsuki
DD Hibiki
DD Ikazuchi
DD Inazuma
DD Fubuki, Shell hits 1
DD Shinonome, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Usugumo, Shell hits 1
DD Isonami
DD Shirayuki
DD Hatsuyuki
DD Murakumo, Shell hits 6, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

Allied Ships
BB South Dakota, Shell hits 5, on fire
BB Indiana
CA Vincennes
CL Nashville
DD Hull
DD Monaghan
DD Aylwin
DD Pillsbury, Shell hits 1
DD Vendetta, Shell hits 2
DD Talbot, Shell hits 1
DMS Hovey



Poor visibility due to Thunderstorms with 39% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Thunderstorms and 39% moonlight: 2,000 yards
Range closes to 24,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 24,000 yards
Range closes to 19,000 yards...
Range closes to 14,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 14,000 yards
Range closes to 9,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 9,000 yards
Range closes to 7,000 yards...
Range closes to 5,000 yards...
Range closes to 3,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 3,000 yards
Allies open fire on surprised Japanese ships at 3,000 yards
BB Indiana fires at CV Akagi at 3,000 yards
Fuel storage explosion on CV Kaga
BB South Dakota fires at CV Kaga at 3,000 yards
CA Vincennes fires at CV Kaga at 3,000 yards
BB South Dakota fires at BB Nagato at 3,000 yards
DD Talbot launches Torpedoes at CLAA Tatsuta at 3,000 yards
DD Vendetta launches Torpedoes at CLAA Tenryu at 3,000 yards
BB Indiana fires at DD Murakumo at 3,000 yards
DD Aylwin launches Torpedoes at DD Murakumo at 3,000 yards
DD Murakumo sunk by DD Monaghan at 3,000 yards
DD Vendetta fires at DD Usugumo at 3,000 yards
DD Talbot fires at DD Shinonome at 3,000 yards
DD Monaghan fires at DD Fubuki at 3,000 yards
DD Monaghan fires at DD Inazuma at 3,000 yards
Range closes to 2,000 yards
BB Indiana engages CV Kaga at 2,000 yards
Ammo storage explosion on CV Kaga
BB South Dakota engages CV Kaga at 2,000 yards
BB South Dakota engages BB Mutsu at 2,000 yards
BB South Dakota engages BB Nagato at 2,000 yards
BB South Dakota engages CLAA Tatsuta at 2,000 yards
BB South Dakota engages CLAA Tenryu at 2,000 yards
DD Pillsbury engages DD Shinonome at 2,000 yards
DD Shirayuki engages DD Vendetta at 2,000 yards
DD Isonami engages DD Talbot at 2,000 yards
DD Aylwin engages DD Usugumo at 2,000 yards
DD Aylwin engages DD Shinonome at 2,000 yards
DD Fubuki engages DD Pillsbury at 2,000 yards
DD Talbot engages DD Isokaze at 2,000 yards
Range increases to 6,000 yards
BB Indiana engages CV Kaga at 6,000 yards
CA Vincennes engages CV Kaga at 6,000 yards
BB South Dakota engages BB Nagato at 6,000 yards
CLAA Tatsuta engages DD Talbot at 6,000 yards
DD Usugumo engages DD Vendetta at 6,000 yards
DD Hatsuyuki engages DD Pillsbury at 6,000 yards
DD Aylwin engages DD Shirayuki at 6,000 yards
DD Talbot engages DD Isonami at 6,000 yards
DD Talbot engages DD Usugumo at 6,000 yards
DD Shinonome engages DMS Hovey at 6,000 yards
DD Pillsbury engages DD Fubuki at 6,000 yards
DD Ikazuchi engages DD Vendetta at 6,000 yards
DD Akatsuki engages DD Monaghan at 6,000 yards
DD Talbot engages DD Isokaze at 6,000 yards
BB South Dakota engages CV Akagi at 6,000 yards
BB South Dakota engages CV Kaga at 6,000 yards
BB South Dakota engages BB Mutsu at 6,000 yards
BB South Dakota engages BB Nagato at 6,000 yards
BB South Dakota engages CLAA Tatsuta at 6,000 yards
CLAA Tenryu engages DD Vendetta at 6,000 yards
DD Hatsuyuki engages DD Pillsbury at 6,000 yards
DD Talbot engages DD Shirayuki at 6,000 yards
DD Ikazuchi engages DD Monaghan at 6,000 yards
DD Hull engages DD Isokaze at 6,000 yards
DD Shinonome engages DMS Hovey at 6,000 yards
DD Monaghan engages DD Hibiki at 6,000 yards
DD Isokaze engages DD Aylwin at 6,000 yards
Range closes to 5,000 yards
Ammo storage explosion on CV Kaga
BB Indiana engages CV Kaga at 5,000 yards
BB South Dakota engages CV Kaga at 5,000 yards
CA Vincennes engages CV Kaga at 5,000 yards
CL Nashville engages CV Kaga at 5,000 yards
Japanese Task Force Manages to Escape
Task forces break off...



However later in the turn I am dreaming of payback...........



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Cuttack at 46,40, Range 29,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
BB Kongo
BB Haruna
CA Furutaka
CA Kako
CL Nagara
CL Isuzu
CL Natori
CL Yura
DD Hatsuzuki

Allied Ships
CV Lexington
CV Saratoga, heavy damage
CA Portland
CA Indianapolis
CLAA Juneau
CL Boise
DD Bancroft
DD Caldwell
DD Bagley
DD Helm



Low visibility due to Thunderstorms with 39% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Thunderstorms and 39% moonlight: 2,000 yards
Range closes to 24,000 yards...
Range closes to 19,000 yards...
Range closes to 14,000 yards...
Range closes to 9,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 9,000 yards
Range closes to 6,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 6,000 yards
Range closes to 4,000 yards...
Range closes to 2,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 2,000 yards
Allied TF attempts to evade combat
Range increases to 3,000 yards...
Range increases to 4,000 yards...
Range increases to 5,000 yards...
Range increases to 6,000 yards...
Range increases to 7,000 yards...
Range increases to 8,000 yards...
Range increases to 9,000 yards...
Range increases to 10,000 yards...
Range increases to 11,000 yards...
Range increases to 12,000 yards...
Range increases to 13,000 yards...
Range increases to 14,000 yards...
Range increases to 15,000 yards...
Range increases to 16,000 yards...
Range increases to 17,000 yards...
Range increases to 18,000 yards...
Range increases to 19,000 yards...
Range increases to 20,000 yards...
Range increases to 21,000 yards...
Range increases to 22,000 yards...
Range increases to 23,000 yards...
Range increases to 24,000 yards...
Range increases to 25,000 yards...
Range increases to 26,000 yards...
Range increases to 27,000 yards...
Range increases to 28,000 yards...
Range increases to 29,000 yards...
Range increases to 29,000 yards...
Allied Task Force Manages to Escape
Allied Air Combat TF evades combat


Post #: 1
RE: Oh Bugger...... - 12/31/2011 1:43:19 PM   
pws1225

 

Posts: 1166
Joined: 8/9/2010
From: Tate's Hell, Florida
Status: offline 		Ugh!

(in reply to Miller)
Post #: 2
RE: Oh Bugger...... - 12/31/2011 1:46:42 PM   
dorjun driver


Posts: 641
Joined: 4/20/2006
From: Port Townsend: hex 210,51
Status: offline 		Whoa.  How the fu...?

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Post #: 3
RE: Oh Bugger...... - 12/31/2011 1:47:32 PM   
Gunner98

 

Posts: 5508
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: The Great White North!
Status: offline 		Looks like radar was the battle winner - what's the date? Bad day (err night) to be in CarDiv 1!

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Post #: 4
RE: Oh Bugger...... - 12/31/2011 1:57:16 PM   
Miller


Posts: 2226
Joined: 9/14/2004
From: Ashington, England.
Status: offline 		Its March 43. Two things "bug" me. Number one is that the CV escorts made no attempt to screen the CVs, even if this was down to surprise I would have expected them to perform better. I was chewing nails whilst those 16 inchers were raining down without hardly any counter fire.

Number two was that my BB TF had I guess at least a 10 knot speed advantage.......they close to 2000 yards yet the CVs escape

Dice roll gods not on my side that turn. All credit to my opponent however for taking the risk...........

(in reply to Gunner98)
Post #: 5
RE: Oh Bugger...... - 12/31/2011 2:03:37 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

Its March 43. Two things "bug" me. Number one is that the CV escorts made no attempt to screen the CVs, even if this was down to surprise I would have expected them to perform better. I was chewing nails whilst those 16 inchers were raining down without hardly any counter fire.

Number two was that my BB TF had I guess at least a 10 knot speed advantage.......they close to 2000 yards yet the CVs escape

Dice roll gods not on my side that turn. All credit to my opponent however for taking the risk...........

Aye. The porous nature of the CV 'escort screen' has been cited in other SCTF v. CVTF combats too. Doesn't seem to be an improvement and it does seem unrealistically strictured in ability to defend its charge.

In a Marianas scenario (June 44), I had a well-escorted Allied CVE TF get butchered by the gunfire of three measly Japanese DDs. No torpedo hits, just gunfire from DDs. All the while the Allied escorts ignored the blazing carrier decks just off their bow-negligible return fire.

_____________________________


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Post #: 6
RE: Oh Bugger...... - 12/31/2011 2:06:34 PM   
Miller


Posts: 2226
Joined: 9/14/2004
From: Ashington, England.
Status: offline 		Well s'pose the lesson is always have a seperate SCTF following your CV fleets.....I assume the enemy SCTF would have to fight through them first? Or is it random?

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 7
RE: Oh Bugger...... - 12/31/2011 2:09:18 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		At least one SCTF with the CVs if there is any possibility of surface engagement. As for the SCTF set to 'follow' the CVTF, I think that is up in the air. Some have argued for the CVTF following the SCTF, some argue for following an SCTF with another SCTF screen in the same hex as the air combat guys-just in case something gets through the initial outermost screen. I'm not sure there's a real answer out there, Miller.

ETA: I'm sure there's a random 'die roll' element at play here too. It is possible that an incoming enemy SCTF will bypass one or more friendly SCTFs en route to engaging your flattops. It's happened.

< Message edited by Chickenboy -- 12/31/2011 2:11:00 PM >

_____________________________


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Post #: 8
RE: Oh Bugger...... - 12/31/2011 2:23:41 PM   
Gunner98

 

Posts: 5508
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: The Great White North!
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

Its March 43. Two things "bug" me. Number one is that the CV escorts made no attempt to screen the CVs, even if this was down to surprise I would have expected them to perform better. I was chewing nails whilst those 16 inchers were raining down without hardly any counter fire.

Number two was that my BB TF had I guess at least a 10 knot speed advantage.......they close to 2000 yards yet the CVs escape

Dice roll gods not on my side that turn. All credit to my opponent however for taking the risk...........


In the second battle - I don't think you SFTF even saw the CVTF. They got down to 2K yds but the USN had a radar track and the IJN did not even detect - I don't think.

The first battle does seem a bit scant on the screening - a torpedo run from a flock of those DDs would have thrown off the US aim a bit. Does the game simulate smoke screens, not that it would have done much good here? It looks like the entire CVTF stuck together in formation and with an engagement range of 2K and climbing, a max visibility of 2K and radar detection on the USN side only - your screen could not see far enough to target accurately beyond firing at the gun flashes, they won't hit much.

Bad luck

B

(in reply to Miller)
Post #: 9
RE: Oh Bugger...... - 12/31/2011 3:06:01 PM   
Richard III


Posts: 710
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline 		Aaggggggg!!

As Gunner 98 said, bad weather blinding your guys + extended radar tracking as they closed screwed you. I wonder what the leadership values were on both sides ? Did he get a reaction move into your TF ?

Not that it`s any comfort, but in my testing and numerous AAR`s through `42, I note that in night engagements the IJN DD`s don`t seem to do organized ( several ships ) torpedo attacks, as compared to WitP, and rarely does even a single ship launch.

In fact, in early war night engagements, the Brit. DD`s launch torps far more then the IJN DD`s.


_____________________________

“History would be a wonderful thing – if it were only true.”

¯ Leo Tolstoy

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Post #: 10
RE: Oh Bugger...... - 12/31/2011 3:29:34 PM   
Miller


Posts: 2226
Joined: 9/14/2004
From: Ashington, England.
Status: offline 		Looking back and having viewed a few turns since, it looks like surface radar is the key. I don't think any IJN warships can upgrade to get this yet in my game.........

(in reply to Richard III)
Post #: 11
RE: Oh Bugger...... - 12/31/2011 3:51:04 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		Nasty result. Radar wins and I guess the US CVs had a Cloaking Device that they were able to activate just in the nick of time.


_____________________________



Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.

Reluctant Admiral Mod:
https://sites.google.com/site/reluctantadmiral/

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Post #: 12
RE: Oh Bugger...... - 12/31/2011 6:07:05 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		Japan gets air radar in early '43, but a quick look at their larger warships shows not until 9/43 do they start to get surface radar. Most Japanese ships don't get any until '44. Some DDs get their radar almost 6 months before the BBs (look at the Kongo Class), go figure.

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Post #: 13
RE: Oh Bugger...... - 12/31/2011 6:07:20 PM   
tocaff


Posts: 4781
Joined: 10/12/2006
From: USA now in Brasil
Status: offline 		Luck of the Magpies.  

_____________________________

Todd

I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2080768

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Post #: 14
RE: Oh Bugger...... - 12/31/2011 6:49:07 PM   
Miller


Posts: 2226
Joined: 9/14/2004
From: Ashington, England.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tocaff

Luck of the Magpies.  


Hi Todd. Not the best way for your team to end the year either.

Hope you had a great Christmas and a very Hapy New Year to you

(in reply to tocaff)
Post #: 15
RE: Oh Bugger...... - 12/31/2011 7:22:39 PM   
tocaff


Posts: 4781
Joined: 10/12/2006
From: USA now in Brasil
Status: offline 		Same to you and yours Paul.



_____________________________

Todd

I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2080768

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Post #: 16
RE: Oh Bugger...... - 12/31/2011 10:13:58 PM   
Admiral Mitscher


Posts: 122
Joined: 12/10/2011
Status: offline 		IMHO The Japs were beaten here by the poor visibility due to the thunderstorms, and low moonlight. The Jap DD's did their job properly, and engaged the USN DD's to screen against a torpedo attack. But it was the Jap BB's that lit the side down, as they did seem to do much at all, apart from get hit.

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Post #: 17
RE: Oh Bugger...... - 1/1/2012 5:19:28 AM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		No secret here. It was all radar.

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Sigismund of Luxemburg

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Post #: 18
RE: Oh Bugger...... - 1/1/2012 5:30:47 AM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		makes me shudder...

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Post #: 19
RE: Oh Bugger...... - 1/1/2012 12:55:47 PM   
oldman45


Posts: 2320
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Jacksonville Fl
Status: offline 		There was a patch,way back when, that changed how radar effected combat. I was under the impression that as the war progressed the US would use its radar to engage the enemy with gunfire. Here the combat still closed to 2k yards. I am pretty sure a carrier would offer a nice radar return to shoot at.

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Post #: 20
RE: Oh Bugger...... - 1/1/2012 2:08:04 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline 		wow, that was the one out of 100 chance

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Post #: 21
RE: Oh Bugger...... - 1/1/2012 2:10:53 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

Well s'pose the lesson is always have a seperate SCTF following your CV fleets.....I assume the enemy SCTF would have to fight through them first? Or is it random?



the other way around, have the CV fleet following your SC TF because otherwise you will find out your carriers move into a hex, are butchered by the enemy (usually only a sub) and then the rest of the fleet arrives. So, surface combat TF in the lead, followed by ASW TF (against the pesky subs) and last not least the carrier TFs.

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Post #: 22
RE: Oh Bugger...... - 1/1/2012 6:06:55 PM   
Justus2


Posts: 729
Joined: 11/12/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

Well s'pose the lesson is always have a seperate SCTF following your CV fleets.....I assume the enemy SCTF would have to fight through them first? Or is it random?



the other way around, have the CV fleet following your SC TF because otherwise you will find out your carriers move into a hex, are butchered by the enemy (usually only a sub) and then the rest of the fleet arrives. So, surface combat TF in the lead, followed by ASW TF (against the pesky subs) and last not least the carrier TFs.


So does the game process the following TF with that delay? I wasnt sure, but I have been using ASW teams on follow (zero hex) for some of my convoys, just to track the ships better. But if the subs will get an attack in on the merchants, before the ASW arrives, that would be BAD....

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Playing/Learning Shadow Empire


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Post #: 23
RE: Oh Bugger...... - 1/1/2012 8:14:29 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Justus2


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

Well s'pose the lesson is always have a seperate SCTF following your CV fleets.....I assume the enemy SCTF would have to fight through them first? Or is it random?



the other way around, have the CV fleet following your SC TF because otherwise you will find out your carriers move into a hex, are butchered by the enemy (usually only a sub) and then the rest of the fleet arrives. So, surface combat TF in the lead, followed by ASW TF (against the pesky subs) and last not least the carrier TFs.


So does the game process the following TF with that delay? I wasnt sure, but I have been using ASW teams on follow (zero hex) for some of my convoys, just to track the ships better. But if the subs will get an attack in on the merchants, before the ASW arrives, that would be BAD....


I am not so sure that is the case. I think sub attacks are random-but don't know much about it.


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Post #: 24
RE: Oh Bugger...... - 1/1/2012 9:10:08 PM   
Miller


Posts: 2226
Joined: 9/14/2004
From: Ashington, England.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

Well s'pose the lesson is always have a seperate SCTF following your CV fleets.....I assume the enemy SCTF would have to fight through them first? Or is it random?



the other way around, have the CV fleet following your SC TF because otherwise you will find out your carriers move into a hex, are butchered by the enemy (usually only a sub) and then the rest of the fleet arrives. So, surface combat TF in the lead, followed by ASW TF (against the pesky subs) and last not least the carrier TFs.




Thanks for the advice. Obviously Kaga was dead but I was "lucky" that 2 of 3 16in hits on Akagi were duds. She should reach port unless his subs find her.

(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 25
RE: Oh Bugger...... - 1/1/2012 9:27:27 PM   
AcePylut


Posts: 1494
Joined: 3/19/2004
Status: offline 		T-storms minus radar = Japs have no clue there are allies around, until they get lit up.
T-storms plus radar = Allies can vector into prime firing position all stealthy

plausible, most definitely.


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Post #: 26
RE: Oh Bugger...... - 1/2/2012 2:13:29 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline 		What happened to all those Jap DD's long lance torpedoes???

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Post #: 27
RE: Oh Bugger...... - 1/2/2012 2:17:29 PM   
Miller


Posts: 2226
Joined: 9/14/2004
From: Ashington, England.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

What happened to all those Jap DD's long lance torpedoes???


Not a single torpedo was fired by the DDs. All the hits on the US ships were from my BBs or the CLAAs..........

(in reply to dr.hal)
Post #: 28
RE: Oh Bugger...... - 11/14/2012 8:11:58 PM   
Miller


Posts: 2226
Joined: 9/14/2004
From: Ashington, England.
Status: offline 		Bumping this one from the back end of last year. Almost two years on in the game almost the same thing happens in reverse, revenge is sweet

--------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Kunashiri at 125,52, Range 1,000 Yards

Allied aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-5 Hellcat: 35 destroyed
SB2C-4 Helldiver: 7 destroyed
TBM-3 Avenger: 7 destroyed

Japanese Ships
BB Mutsu
BB Yamato, Shell hits 17
BB Musashi, Shell hits 80, Torpedo hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
CL Agano
CL Noshiro
DD Isokaze
DD Amatsukaze, Shell hits 4, on fire
DD Tokitsukaze, Shell hits 5

Allied Ships
CV Ticonderoga, Shell hits 29, on fire
CV Bennington, Shell hits 45, and is sunk
CVL Bataan, Shell hits 3
BB Missouri, Shell hits 20, heavy fires
CLAA Oakland
CL Mobile, Shell hits 44, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Ammen
DD Anthony
DD Aulick, Shell hits 2
DD Bennett
DD Bennion
DD Burns
DD Bush
DD Callaghan
DD Caperton
DD Capps


(in reply to Miller)
Post #: 29
RE: Oh Bugger...... - 11/14/2012 11:09:32 PM   
Empire101


Posts: 1950
Joined: 5/20/2008
From: Coruscant
Status: offline 		I think the title of this thread sums it up perfectly.

Radar........

If only Japanese ships were equipped with these, then us JFB's might stand a chance in a situation like Miller faced.






Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Our lives may be more boring than those who lived in apocalyptic times,
but being bored is greatly preferable to being prematurely dead because of some ideological fantasy. - Michael Burleigh


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Post #: 30
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