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Difficult - 11/19/2012 8:28:21 PM

Mike Parker

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From: Houston TX
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I have played alot of wargames like this... from Tactics II through many versions of computer games. I just cannot seem to make my way vrs the AI on balanced (I have not tried handicapped as it is supoposedly bugged right now). The AI can produce units at a much fast rate than I can when I play the same faction... and I have analyed the PP system pretty closely and I cannot imagine I am doing anything wrong, not enough so that the AI seems to have about twice the number of extra units (i.e. built over starting) than I can manage in the same time period. I.E. I play the Entente and look at Serbia and build units through turn 6.. then I play the CP and on turn 6 the units I can SEE (although I purposefully do things stupid to see extra units) is about double what I would have been able to build.

Post #: 1

RE: Difficult - 11/19/2012 9:15:14 PM

TheWombat_matrixforum

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Parker

I have played alot of wargames like this... from Tactics II through many versions of computer games. I just cannot seem to make my way vrs the AI on balanced (I have not tried handicapped as it is supoposedly bugged right now). The AI can produce units at a much fast rate than I can when I play the same faction... and I have analyed the PP system pretty closely and I cannot imagine I am doing anything wrong, not enough so that the AI seems to have about twice the number of extra units (i.e. built over starting) than I can manage in the same time period. I.E. I play the Entente and look at Serbia and build units through turn 6.. then I play the CP and on turn 6 the units I can SEE (although I purposefully do things stupid to see extra units) is about double what I would have been able to build.

I have no idea whether I'm just not doing something right, or whether the AI side gets some bonuses to production even on Normal difficulty, but I've seen the same thing you're mentioning. Now, I haven't done a unit count or anything but man, the computer seems to never have any shortage of people--and the AI's front line is always kept replaced and probably upgraded from what I can tell.

Playing the CP, I simply don't have the manpower to stop the Russians, much less beat them. That leads to a chain of events that results in failure in the West, too.

Of course, there are several possibilities. One is that I simply suck; entirely possible! Another is that the AI is getting bonuses--no idea if this is true, but it would help explain things. A third is that the Russians, at the very least, are represented with more combat power and flexibility than would have been the case historically--they certainly seem able to go toe to toe with the Kaiser's best a lot more handily than they actually did. Hell, the freakin' Austrians do better against the Russians than the Germans do!

One thing that I do see that I actually think might be worth looking into is the effect of winter and mountains both. It seems way too easy to conduct extensive and relatively rapidly moving campaigns through the Alps. The Italians, when they enter the game, seem to be far more mobile and effective than either history or the map would warrant. And the ability of armies in general to roam about in enemy territory fairly rapidly--infantry, even garrison infantry here, not cavalry--does seem a bit off.

The game is quite good overall, of course, but I am curious about some of these things.

(in reply to Mike Parker)

Post #: 2

RE: Difficult - 11/19/2012 9:33:41 PM

Mike Parker

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From: Houston TX
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I agree I love the game, and perhaps I am just doing things horribly wrong, but i never had this degree of hardship fighting the AI in the WWII game this came from nor the Napoleonic war version.

Most definatly the AI on normal gets alot more PP than a similar human player. The few successes I have had against the AI have so far been rather gamey... in other words a human would severly punish me but by trial and error I know the AI won't. Mostly though I get my behind shelacked and try to come up with something else. And it has been from both sides I have seen this.

(in reply to Mike Parker)

Post #: 3

RE: Difficult - 11/19/2012 10:21:28 PM

Myrddraal

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The AI shouldn't get any production bonuses on 'Balanced'.

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RE: Difficult - 11/19/2012 10:23:35 PM

Mike Parker

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I will make sure I am not doing something wrong... but in my experience the Serbians on Balanced AI settings sure out produce me when I play them... they are the only ones I have done a look at... but it seems the same is true of every AI controlled nation. Literally at turn 6 I see more units than it is possible for me to field as human controlled Serbians.

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Post #: 5

RE: Difficult - 11/19/2012 10:32:51 PM

Myrddraal

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You said in the other thread (about mp):

quote:

It always seems when playing multiplayer that 'the other guy' is doing better in your estimating than in his own! At least it seems that way to me, my brother and I just got a game going and it seems that way to me!

I think this happens in SP too

Having said that, if you want to upload a savegame here I could have a look at it just to be sure.

(in reply to Mike Parker)

Post #: 6

RE: Difficult - 11/19/2012 10:43:10 PM

Mike Parker

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I'll set something up and send you a savegame to look at. It won't be till tomorrow most likely. What I will do is play a game with me as the Entente, and build as many units as I can through turn 6 and keep a log of my economics and units lost... then I will play a game as the CP and on turn 6 do my best to 'hug' the Serbians to get a look at his unit count.

(in reply to Myrddraal)

Post #: 7

RE: Difficult - 11/19/2012 11:42:40 PM

Mike Parker

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Let me know how to send you the save games.

With me as Serbia after 6 turns I had with at-start and builds

7 Garr
3 Inf
Nothing in the build Que
0pp
+3pp/turn

I have turn by turn details of what I spent if you need them

With the AI playing Serbia after 6 turns I could see
6 Garr
3 Inf

I have no idea what her build que nor PP total or per turn are however.

(in reply to Mike Parker)

Post #: 8

RE: Difficult - 11/20/2012 2:59:01 AM

Fred98

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Place the file into a ZIP file and upoad to this thread.

Then everybody interested can take a look.

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Post #: 9

RE: Difficult - 11/20/2012 1:58:50 PM

Mike Parker

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alrighty... well I got the .zip file, but when i try and upload it the response is it is not the proper file type... to be honest it claims ot support only txt gif and jpg? Am I trying to upload in the wrong manner?

(in reply to Fred98)

Post #: 10

RE: Difficult - 11/21/2012 1:36:11 AM

Bossy573

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I get trounced every time I play against the AI. Definitely not easy.

I suspect I need to get out of an attack everything, everywhere frame of mind.

< Message edited by Bossy573 -- 11/21/2012 1:38:11 AM >

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Post #: 11

RE: Difficult - 11/21/2012 5:50:29 AM

Fred98

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I have uploaded ZIp files a few times.

It seems they are no longer supported.

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Post #: 12

RE: Difficult - 11/21/2012 6:35:31 AM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bossy573

I get trounced every time I play against the AI. Definitely not easy.

I suspect I need to get out of an attack everything, everywhere frame of mind.

warspite1

I think if you play the CP you HAVE to have that frame of mind early on. With the Entente you definitely need to NOT have that frame of mind imo.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to Bossy573)

Post #: 13

RE: Difficult - 11/21/2012 9:11:33 AM

Empire101

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I do feel that the Serbian Army is a little overpowered, making the AH's mission to finish them very difficult within the historical time frame.

_____________________________

Our lives may be more boring than those who lived in apocalyptic times,
but being bored is greatly preferable to being prematurely dead because of some ideological fantasy. - Michael Burleigh

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 14

RE: Difficult - 11/21/2012 1:19:08 PM

Myrddraal

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The trick to beating the Serbs is to outmanoeuvre them. They start with a large army, but their economy can't support much more. You don't need to worry about the Serbian army expanding.

They start with a large force which is well entrenched. You won't be able to shift them through direct assault or attrition. Try instead to outflank them. Create salients where they leave a gap. Threaten to cut off their forces and you will force them to abandon their entrenched positions. This way you can capture Belgrade, and the economic blow caused by the loss of Belgrade can be enough to cause the chain reaction you need to roll them all the way back to the Greek border.

Serbia has a tough outer shell, but they don't have any reserves, economic or military.

(in reply to Empire101)

Post #: 15

RE: Difficult - 11/21/2012 1:54:17 PM

EUBanana

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I find, playing as the Entente, that with Austria, Germany and the Ottomans all gunning for them the Russians are seriously overstretched. They may have a lot of manpower but their industry is not huge, and they have enormously wide fronts to cover. That translates to a high percentage of garrisons in the Russian army if you intend to hold territory.

And garrisons will crack when faced with a determined assault. Especially in the beginning before the Russians have the industrial warfare tech researched, they just fold like a napkin at any real pressure. My setup as Russians now is strictly defensive, I don't even try and defend Warsaw any more but pretty much dig in immediately where they start, and focus on all the defensive technologies. Attacking Konigsberg is right out unless you have a death wish - garrisons are rather inflexible too as they are almost worthless on the attack. If you can catch the Russians without entrenchment they suffer horribly in my experience as well, which has led me to needing even more garrisons to build second lines of defence as otherwise if the front collapses it can be almost impossible for them to bring things to a halt again.

Incidentally as the Entente I find that unless you move everything spare northwards immediately on the Western Front then the Schlieffen Plan usually works, a testament to the AI. :P If you had a personal house rule that stated "on turn 1 France must attack towards Alsace-Lorraine and is not allowed to move any units towards the Belgian border", as they did historically, then the Germans would probably take Paris more often then not! (I think the AI is much better than I am.

)

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Post #: 16

RE: Difficult - 11/21/2012 4:39:53 PM

Mike Parker

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Either I am managing my economy wrong or the AI on balanced is getting a PP boost. Perhaps I am spending manpower foolishly and it is lowering my PP but there are way too many AI troops arrayed against me... the term 'endless hordes' is applicable no matter which side I play the other side seems to have inexhaustible units to plug into holes.

Are me and my brother the only two folks experiencing this?

(in reply to EUBanana)

Post #: 17

RE: Difficult - 11/21/2012 6:00:48 PM

Myrddraal

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You're definitely playing on Balanced? (both other difficulty levels give bonuses to the AI)

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RE: Difficult - 11/21/2012 8:43:44 PM

jack54

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Parker

Either I am managing my economy wrong or the AI on balanced is getting a PP boost. Perhaps I am spending manpower foolishly and it is lowering my PP but there are way too many AI troops arrayed against me... the term 'endless hordes' is applicable no matter which side I play the other side seems to have inexhaustible units to plug into holes.

Are me and my brother the only two folks experiencing this?

You are not alone, I am finding the same thing, first full campaign as Entante on 'Balanced' and I am being overwhelmed seemingly everywhere. I watch the AI attack and I am Amazed...

< Message edited by jack54 -- 11/21/2012 8:46:08 PM >

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RE: Difficult - 11/21/2012 11:48:47 PM

Bossy573

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I think if you play the CP you HAVE to have that frame of mind early on. With the Entente you definitely need to NOT have that frame of mind imo.

I have played the CP every game and the Entente just overwhelms. Have gotten close to Paris but never with a real chance to take it. I love the challenge, but I would like to win just once.

Anyway, I was thinking over my strategy for the next game and I think I'm going to stop short in the West and go all out in the east. See how that goes. And I am waiting for my hard copy to arrive so I can read the manual and see what nuances I am missing.

Maybe I'll try a game as the Entente as well.

_____________________________

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Post #: 20

RE: Difficult - 11/22/2012 2:38:41 AM

stormbringer3

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I finally won playing as the CP by conquering Belgium and setting up a defensive line close enough to Paris to keep the AI worried about an offensive against Paris. I never launched another major offensive in France until late in the game. I focused on the East and was able to win the Campaign by attacking the Russians and Italy. After Russia surrendered I was free to assault France.
I hope this helps.

(in reply to Bossy573)

Post #: 21

RE: Difficult - 11/22/2012 4:14:47 AM

catwhoorg

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With a couple of good dice rolls I think the Schlieffen plan can get you to Paris. Holding it is another thing...

Both game I have played as the CP (yay for a week off) I pretty much set my line around the Marne river, then focused on the East Front and Egypt.

Serbia fell both times, just in time to redeploy those forces to Italy (with a couple of new builds). Sent a fighter and AH-arty to help out the Turks (plus Bulgarian inf reinforcements after Romania was dealt with).

The AI really likes putting British stuff in Egypt, makes for a very interesting and dynamic fight. Got pushed back to N Lebanon both times, before the reinforcements turned it round.

(in reply to stormbringer3)

Post #: 22

RE: Difficult - 11/22/2012 9:12:49 AM

Empire101

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Myrddraal

The trick to beating the Serbs is to outmanoeuvre them. They start with a large army, but their economy can't support much more. You don't need to worry about the Serbian army expanding.

They start with a large force which is well entrenched. You won't be able to shift them through direct assault or attrition. Try instead to outflank them. Create salients where they leave a gap. Threaten to cut off their forces and you will force them to abandon their entrenched positions. This way you can capture Belgrade, and the economic blow caused by the loss of Belgrade can be enough to cause the chain reaction you need to roll them all the way back to the Greek border.

Serbia has a tough outer shell, but they don't have any reserves, economic or military.

After numerous clangers and schoolboy mistakes, I restarted a new campaign and followed Myrddraal's advice.

Myrddraals advice was spot on.

As soon as you start outflanking them a la Orms strategy in his game versus warspite, and develop the 'Nis' salient, the Serbs are doomed.

This screenshot will encourage any potential CP player!!

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Our lives may be more boring than those who lived in apocalyptic times,
but being bored is greatly preferable to being prematurely dead because of some ideological fantasy. - Michael Burleigh

(in reply to Myrddraal)

Post #: 23

RE: Difficult - 11/22/2012 9:32:22 AM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Empire101

quote:

ORIGINAL: Myrddraal

The trick to beating the Serbs is to outmanoeuvre them. They start with a large army, but their economy can't support much more. You don't need to worry about the Serbian army expanding.

They start with a large force which is well entrenched. You won't be able to shift them through direct assault or attrition. Try instead to outflank them. Create salients where they leave a gap. Threaten to cut off their forces and you will force them to abandon their entrenched positions. This way you can capture Belgrade, and the economic blow caused by the loss of Belgrade can be enough to cause the chain reaction you need to roll them all the way back to the Greek border.

Serbia has a tough outer shell, but they don't have any reserves, economic or military.

After numerous clangers and schoolboy mistakes, I restarted a new campaign and followed Myrddraal's advice.

Myrddraals advice was spot on.

As soon as you start outflanking them a la Orms strategy in his game versus warspite, and develop the 'Nis' salient, the Serbs are doomed.

This screenshot will encourage any potential CP player!!

warspite1

Yeah and just so you know Empire, you CANNOT use that tactic next Tuesday. House rule for our game: You have to make full frontal attacks on the Serbian line - no outflanking.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to Empire101)

Post #: 24

RE: Difficult - 11/22/2012 9:49:12 AM

Empire101

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Fair enough Mr. W.

As long as we impose the 'other' House Rule, that Plan 19 must be followed to the letter by the Allied player in the opening weeks of the War.!!

I look forward to lots of hopeless attacks against the Franco-German border in the first months of the war, as my Prussian forces wheel round a la Schlieffen and are tucking into bratwurst and jagerschnitzel on the boulevards of Paris by winter 1914.

Yum!!

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Our lives may be more boring than those who lived in apocalyptic times,
but being bored is greatly preferable to being prematurely dead because of some ideological fantasy. - Michael Burleigh

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 25

RE: Difficult - 11/22/2012 9:55:03 AM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Empire101

Fair enough Mr. W.

As long as we impose the 'other' House Rule, that Plan 19 must be followed to the letter by the Allied player in the opening weeks of the War.!!

I look forward to lots of hopeless attacks against the Franco-German border in the first months of the war, as my Prussian forces wheel round a la Schlieffen and are tucking into bratwurst and jagerschnitzel on the boulevards of Paris by winter 1914.

Yum!!

warspite1

Sadly, I do not know what Plan 19 is, ergo and theretofore I cannot allow your house rule

Looking forward to Tuesday!

What shall we call our AAR? We've had the Rumble in the Jungle, The Thriller in Manilla.... let's have a think about that. We need something appropriate for the Mother of all Battles!

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to Empire101)

Post #: 26

RE: Difficult - 11/22/2012 10:13:45 AM

Empire101

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Looking forward to Tuesday!

What shall we call our AAR? We've had the Rumble in the Jungle, The Thriller in Manilla.... let's have a think about that. We need something appropriate for the Mother of all Battles!

Indeed Mein Herr!! A duel of giants!!!!

I have my false Kaiser moustache, a pickelhaube and a matchstick firing cannon ready for mobilisation.
So tremble in your boots kleiner entente, I am fully prepared for the campaign.

I've been following your AAR against Orm. Great!!

I shall have a think about the title, lets see......it must be to the point and punchy, yet magisterial and awe inspiring!!!

How about, 'The Great War, 1914-1918'......or do you think its been done before?

Here is a picture of myself in full attire in front of my computer ready for the game against Warspite.
( Note that the pickelhaube is actually made out of tinfoil....you can't be too careful these days. My resemblance to the Kaiser is purely intentional. )

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Our lives may be more boring than those who lived in apocalyptic times,
but being bored is greatly preferable to being prematurely dead because of some ideological fantasy. - Michael Burleigh

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 27

RE: Difficult - 11/22/2012 3:06:52 PM

Hideous42

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There is one thing that the AI is able to do as Belgium that I cannot do on balanced or the AI starts the game with more units. On the very first turn Belgium is able to move for AI there is one more garrison unit in Antwerpen.

(in reply to Empire101)

Post #: 28

RE: Difficult - 11/22/2012 4:46:36 PM

Falke

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Either the AI has additional units or it has no production queue.(It produces without delay)

The AI Garrison Unit in Antwerp proves that one of the above apply. The latter would explain why no matter whether i play CP or entente the opponent seems initially overwhelming on the Russian front.

(in reply to Hideous42)

Post #: 29

RE: Difficult - 11/22/2012 4:57:24 PM

Myrddraal

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I've been looking into this and can confirm it's a bug.

The AI is not supposed to receive this additional garrison unit unless you're playing on Privileged (in the same way that the player gets additional units in handicapped), but it appears the Belgian AI gets an extra garrison unit in all difficulties. This will be fixed in the patch.

EDIT: this bug does not affect the Russian front

< Message edited by Myrddraal -- 11/22/2012 4:58:41 PM >

(in reply to Falke)

Post #: 30