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When are you gonna do promotion? - 12/11/2012 9:20:37 PM

Baleur

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Honestly. We all know this game is incredible all the way down to the bone, each expansion adds a silly amount of content and gameplay depth.
We all know how deeply we enjoy the metagameplay and the grand strategy that is involved, not to mention the seemingly living universe teeming with activity, unlike anything previously seen in any other 4x space strategy game.

All of us here, already here. Nobody else knows.
Nobody knows about this game, outside of this forum. Nobody.

I heard of it by a total accident right before release, a total accident. I just happened to search for some OTHER space 4x game that i forgot the name of (it was Space Empires V, god help me) on youtube and just HAPPENED to stumble upon a reclusive video from a user that had 31 views and was buried on the 4'th search page.

I love this game. I think it is on par, even surpassing, with Galciv 2, SoTS prime and Master of Orion. No joke.
This is the Europa Universalis of the space genre. And i can not believe why NOTHING is being done to even make the existance of all these years of hard work known. Come on, devs. You spent all this hard work on this game, love-crafted hours after hours, yet not a single shred of effort was put into getting the word out?

Still to this day, with a new expansion on the way, i never see or hear ANYTHING about this game, ANYWHERE.
If i did not already know about it, there'd be no way for me to ever find out about it. Regardless how much i love this very genre.

Do you not like money? Do you not want to make an even more incredible sequel at some point in the future? Do you not want the possibility to have a higher budget for the future?
Because i've been playing games for 20 years, especially strategy games, and i can guarantee you that this game would sell on par with many other popular indie titles, IF SOMETHING WAS DONE TO GET PEOPLE TO EVEN KNOW IT EXISTS!

I want this series to prosper, i know it already does well, we see the expansions as proof of that.
But why not be more ambitious? Don't you want more sales of an already amazing game?

1. Put up some bloody videos on youtube about it. It doesn't have to be anything special, just a video of someone knowledgeable about the game, explaining it and showing it off. Ask someone 'famous' to do a video on it. Ask TotalBiscuit (he does gazzillions of indie games, many of them utter crap, i'm sure he'd be glad to do a video on a GOOD game for once, as he's known for wanting to promote quality). Just do SOMETHING, for gods sake man..
2. Invest something in ads on youtube, facebook, whatever. It doesn't have to cost much, for a few dollars a week you can get hundreds of new visitors ("clicks" as it's called, especially via facebook ads) per week. Hundreds of people that bothered clicking because they are interested in a 4x space game. Hundreds of potential customers. I've done this before, advertisement works, that's why everyone else is doing it.
3. Put out some more regular news about it, devblogs or sneak peeks of, ANYTHING. Offer to do interviews where you have the chance of a big audience (i'm sorry, reclusive ultra-core strategy websites with 30 hits a week does not qualify as a big audience), again with someone such as TotalBiscuit who has hundreds of thousands of views on each video.

All in all, why don't the devs do something, anything, to get the word out?
No, it is NOT a special niche genre. People who play Battlefield, Planetside and racing games also play 4x games. We're all gamers, many of us enjoy a wide variety of games. It is absolute folly to restrict your potential market to extremely limited audiences that visit specific strategy-only websites when there's millions of potential customers out there.

Heck, i didn't even know about Matrix Games or any of the other strategy games on that website/store/forums AT ALL until i accidentally stumbled upon this specific game. And i've been playing and loving strategy games for all my life. Crusader Kings, Hearts of Iron, Victoria, Europa Universalis, Total War, Galciv, Space Empires. You name it.

Point is, i'm a strategy game buff, and i never had any clue about this game nor the websites this game appears on.
I'm certain there are many many many more out there like me.
Why don't you like sales?

Put this game on steam, apply it for the Greenlight program.
Guaranteed sales.
If i was sitting on a gem like this, i'd do everything to promote it. You don't even need money for this these days. Internet!

< Message edited by Baleur -- 12/11/2012 9:22:50 PM >

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RE: When are you gonna do promotion? - 12/11/2012 9:44:50 PM

ASHBERY76

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This again.

Matrix like to eat all the pie even if it stays small..

End.

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RE: When are you gonna do promotion? - 12/11/2012 10:17:01 PM

Darkspire

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I'll get the popcorn before Kayoz turns up and it gets locked

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RE: When are you gonna do promotion? - 12/11/2012 10:37:40 PM

Kayoz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkspire

I'll get the popcorn before Kayoz turns up and it gets locked

Darkspire

Hrmm? Why would it get locked?

I've quite consistently advocated Matrix being more aggressive with their marketing. But I am not privy to Matrix's business plans or customer demographics, so I don't belabor the point.

There's little ROI for mass advertising of a 4X game. The appeal of DW is quite limited when compared to Halo or such spunkgargleweewee games.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Baleur
Put this game on steam, apply it for the Greenlight program.
Guaranteed sales.

See this thread - not good for business.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
...we have explored other distribution options and that does include Steam (not just for this game but for other games as well). It's not the slam dunk for DW that it may appear to be at first glance...

< Message edited by Kayoz -- 12/11/2012 10:42:53 PM >

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RE: When are you gonna do promotion? - 12/12/2012 3:48:19 AM

Cruis.In

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doesnt need marketing

with how many people like t his, the marketing is viral

what it needs is a demo. a timed demo. they said they dont want to do a demo because DW wouldnt be cool experienced in a feature crippled demo. so do a timed one i say.

that and the price for a 3 yr indie strategy game with low production values ( i.e graphics/sound etc etc) keep the potential buyers away.

no one in their right mind is paying near 100 bucks for something they cannot demo.

It no longer becomes about how good the game could possibly be. Unless they offer a 7 day money back guarantee if you dont like it.

I love DW. great gameplay, but it should never be at its current price. If I were the NZ team I'd take it back from Matrix games and go on my own. Kick start a budget for the expansion.

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RE: When are you gonna do promotion? - 12/12/2012 8:42:49 AM

Kayoz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cruis.In

doesnt need marketing

<snip>

what it needs is a demo.

Wouldn't you say that a demo is a marketing tool?

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RE: When are you gonna do promotion? - 12/12/2012 9:16:42 AM

Bingeling

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What I from myself, is that a game needs to be special for me to pay the 50+ euro full price. I rather wait a bit and play "years behind the curve". I just completed Portal 1 and 2 :).

Of course, some games are special.

With the current 35% sale, the prices are not _that_ bad, though. If you already know the game is good, at least. But how can you possibly know that without testing it? A quick vanilla DW test gets into my "cheap enough" range, as long as I got a good reason to try it. But the latest game is a better demo candidate, anyways.

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RE: When are you gonna do promotion? - 12/12/2012 3:05:02 PM

springel

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I learned about this game from a discussion in the Paradox forum.

That made me buy it.

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RE: When are you gonna do promotion? - 12/12/2012 4:56:45 PM

Cruis.In

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i am crazy, i never bought a game without trying it before.

i just feel they are shooting themselves in the foot and i want them to have better success.

cuz i think that'll get me more distant worlds faster and probably upgrade in graphics/sound production :)

im willing to bet the game has sold about 15k copies.

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RE: When are you gonna do promotion? - 12/12/2012 5:40:12 PM

DevildogFF

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I have to wonder why they're not on Steam, either. Compile the expansions, call it simply Distant Worlds (no subtitles, just DW. This is how the game should have been to begin with), and release it on Steam for $50. Then watch how the world catches on to this amazing game.

I can guarantee you that 200k sales at $50 is better than 20k at $100. I'm not even good at math ;)

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RE: When are you gonna do promotion? - 12/12/2012 5:57:37 PM

Darkspire

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Thats it im off for the popcorn

this could get messy ...

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RE: When are you gonna do promotion? - 12/12/2012 8:26:33 PM

Baleur

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Why would it get messy?
I'm just baffled at why developers & publishers that are sitting on a 4x gem that is right up there with galciv, don't bother promoting it what so ever, even free promotion that doesn't cost any money.

It's the most curious thing i've ever seen when it comes to games.
Even a small indie 1-man dev team has more exposure and word out there than this game has.
Just look at Starbound, Starfarer, Terraria, Minecraft, Dwarf Fortress, Towns, Don't Starve, Kerbal Space Program...
Or some with actual publishers as well, such as Crusader Kings, Hearts of Iron, Warlock, Europa Universalis.

Why are these publishers (i won't blame the devs for this, i apologize) so utterly incompetent when it comes to promotion?
It's NOT a tiny genre, it is a huge genre with a massive customer base out there, just look at the games mentioned above.
It just seems to me that DW would be far better off with more ambitious marketing and word of mouth. Why does this weird idea exist that this game is somehow limited to a tiny niche market and really wouldn't sell well at all?

It would. The problem is that nobody knows it even exists.. It's like they gave up before even trying anything.
Heck more people know about Space Empires V and Armada 2526 than this game.. Doesn't that say everything?

< Message edited by Baleur -- 12/12/2012 8:28:25 PM >

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RE: When are you gonna do promotion? - 12/12/2012 8:36:56 PM

Kayoz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DevildogFF

I have to wonder why they're not on Steam

*facepalm* You saw the thread linked above, right? Right?

You seem to think you know the biz better than Erik and company - I suggest you polish up your CV and send it into Matrix. Clearly their business is doomed without your Midas-like business acumen. I await Matrix's announcement of your appointment with bated breath.

Darkspire put you up to this, didn't he?

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RE: When are you gonna do promotion? - 12/12/2012 8:44:31 PM

Cauldyth

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Baleur
Why would it get messy?

Because the topic of releasing on Steam has come up about 15 times already, and each time the thread has gotten rather contentious.

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RE: When are you gonna do promotion? - 12/12/2012 9:09:40 PM

Kayoz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cauldyth

quote:

ORIGINAL: Baleur
Why would it get messy?

Because the topic of releasing on Steam has come up about 15 times already, and each time the thread has gotten rather contentious.

Mind you, there's a certain amount of amusement to be had watching the so-called business experts display a complete failure to understand the difference between complex business concepts such as "sales" and "profit".

Matrix has already had discussions with Steam. It's not good for them, and they didn't sign on the dotted line. Unless you have information not available to Erik and company - the discussion is pretty much dead.

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RE: When are you gonna do promotion? - 12/12/2012 9:09:58 PM

Vasquez

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In Germany went a Distant Worlds Gold Edition retail :) I guess the sales here (Distant Worlds was avaiable in Retail Shops like Amazon since 1,5 Years) are better than in the rest of the world ;p

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RE: When are you gonna do promotion? - 12/12/2012 9:55:02 PM

Darkspire

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

quote:

ORIGINAL: DevildogFF

I have to wonder why they're not on Steam

*facepalm* You saw the thread linked above, right? Right?

You seem to think you know the biz better than Erik and company - I suggest you polish up your CV and send it into Matrix. Clearly their business is doomed without your Midas-like business acumen. I await Matrix's announcement of your appointment with bated breath.

Darkspire put you up to this, didn't he?

Not guilty, honest

I just know what your like when one of these posts comes up with these folks who dare question the validity of the MMM (Matrix Marketing Masterplan)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vasquez

In Germany went a Distant Worlds Gold Edition retail :) I guess the sales here (Distant Worlds was avaiable in Retail Shops like Amazon since 1,5 Years) are better than in the rest of the world ;p

Well if this is anything to go by, got from Amazon a few months ago, how much????

Darkspire

< Message edited by Darkspire -- 12/12/2012 10:01:34 PM >

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RE: When are you gonna do promotion? - 12/12/2012 11:23:43 PM

DevildogFF

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

quote:

ORIGINAL: DevildogFF

I have to wonder why they're not on Steam

*facepalm* You saw the thread linked above, right? Right?

You seem to think you know the biz better than Erik and company - I suggest you polish up your CV and send it into Matrix. Clearly their business is doomed without your Midas-like business acumen. I await Matrix's announcement of your appointment with bated breath.

Darkspire put you up to this, didn't he?

Wow, how nice of you to respond that way. I didn't say anything about "knowing the business better".

Throwing around some big words and writing articulately doesn't mean you can be rude. Looks like you have quite the history of acting like a douc...a less-than-friendly forum goer, as it would appear on the forum you yourself linked us to.

I'm a big fan of Distant Worlds and just want it to reach the biggest possible audience. So sue me for suggesting something that has (obviously, now) been suggested before.

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RE: When are you gonna do promotion? - 12/12/2012 11:26:31 PM

Kayoz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkspire
Not guilty, honest I just know what your like when one of these posts comes up with these folks who dare question the validity of the MMM (Matrix Marketing Masterplan)

Questioning it is one thing - it's quite another to present so-called "facts" which, with the most cursory examination, turn out to be nothing more than uninformed conjecture. The endless stream of fan-boys of Steam who claim expertise in the Steam business model - that's irritating.

Though I think you have me confused with someone else. I've been quite critical of Matrix's lack of DW marketing in the past. Steam is not marketing - it's a sales channel.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vasquez
Well if this is anything to go by, got from Amazon a few months ago, how much????

Yup, there's some crazy prices on Amazon. It's Amazon marketplace. Anyone can sell stuff on Amazon for whatever price they think they can get for it. I fail to see how that has anything to do with Matrix's marketing - aside from the obvious question of why they aren't doing it themselves (ie: selling on Amazon). Mind you, $23 million might be a bit much to ask...

< Message edited by Kayoz -- 12/12/2012 11:53:24 PM >

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RE: When are you gonna do promotion? - 12/12/2012 11:31:31 PM

Kayoz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DevildogFF
...as it would appear on the forum you yourself linked us to.

Hold on, let's get this straight.

You're telling me that you have read the thread - and still don't understand why Matrix doesn't sell on Steam?

For the record, it's sarcasm - which is slightly different from "rude".

< Message edited by Kayoz -- 12/12/2012 11:57:27 PM >

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RE: When are you gonna do promotion? - 12/13/2012 1:15:11 AM

Darkspire

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I love this fourm, defo second on my all time, Galciv being first (as it was about a decade or so ago)

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RE: When are you gonna do promotion? - 12/13/2012 4:19:16 AM

Cruis.In

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i just think a lack of funding is whats holding dw back from any engine improvements etc, such as licensing a good renderer, instead of using xna and .net

with all its short comings dw is so great, imagine without short comings.

wish they could sell more units. Demo the game, lower price, get more players, more profit. I want them to profit more! :)

Is it bad to wish this for someone?

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RE: When are you gonna do promotion? - 12/13/2012 9:12:45 AM

Bingeling

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To shift technology, Elliot will have to invest the time necessary to learn it as well. A 1 man project does not hire a developer with expertise in a special tech, it works with its existing, internal, resources.

I figure that a reason for "old and cheap" tech is that the game was started from nothing quite a while ago.

As for sales, I have no clue, but I hope they are gathering enough money to support further development.

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RE: When are you gonna do promotion? - 12/13/2012 12:08:48 PM

Velihopea

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Baleur
Why would it get messy?

Kayoz "the arrogant". The self-declared winner of these discussions. Who hasn't got a glue about business and hence thinks Matrix knows all.

1) Quote from Paradox studio manager Johan (You know the developer that makes niche grand startegy games) : LINK
"There doesn't really exist any other system that has achievements... And its not worth it for us to make our own system for the 2-3% who don't buy games at steam."

2) And corporate sales Shams: LINK
"Digital retailers generally (can't be specific) take a 30% cut of the the sale of each product. Whatever remains is sent to the whoever's selling the product...

So regarding a low price point - logic clearly dictates that we won't discount a game unless we thought it was a good business move. So you don't need to worry - nothing increases copies sold, revenue, active users and free marketing than a prominent sale.

The beautiful part (and this has been somewhat of a secret for a while) is that AFTER a sale you see increased average sales by a factor of 2-10 - at full price."

3) And from Frogboy (Elemental: FE) : LINK
"For all the shouts that �PC gaming is d0med� we�ve heard over the years, it strikes me as odd that Galactic Civilizations II, a game released 6 years ago and is almost certainly in the top 100 best sellers on Steam has done over $1 million in the past year alone on that platform. And that�s just Steam and not counting Impulse or direct or retail or anywhere else it�s available. That strikes me as a pretty healthy platform."

These are all comments from "niche" game sellers. And just a small sample of proof of steam being a good platform for niche games. And both from companies that have previously been quite anti-steam (before going steam) and had their own priviledged sales platform (GG,Impulse) to bad effect.

And you just have to look at the interest/marketing in Pandora to notice that Scifi and Fantasy games are not in the right place in the Matrix portfolio. But ultimately it's up to questimate if a game would sell in steam. I bet Gary Grigsby or AGEOD would not sell well, but Pandora, Panzer Corps and DW would. Nobody knows for sure, not Matrix, Erik, or Kayoz. But it's not wise IMO to put DW in the same basket with historical hard-core strategies and let the sales depend on this forum and for that target group only.

< Message edited by Velihopea -- 12/13/2012 12:36:01 PM >

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RE: When are you gonna do promotion? - 12/13/2012 2:05:47 PM

Darkspire

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And in the blue corner Velihopea and in the red corner Kayoz ... ding ding

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RE: When are you gonna do promotion? - 12/13/2012 2:23:21 PM

Pipewrench

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Darkspire, What have you done?

....Watching carefully on the sidelines as backseat driving into marketing my way becomes the thread of threads.....

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RE: When are you gonna do promotion? - 12/13/2012 2:53:05 PM

Velihopea

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quote:

And in the blue corner Velihopea and in the red corner Kayoz ... ding ding

It would seem that way. Same happened with Paradox forums a time back. Steam haters were so laud in the forums, that it seemed that they were a majority or at least 1:1 of the customer base. It turned out they were a 2-3% majority :)

Practically Paradox had to tell them to stop it. There is even one on the linked thread that tried to argue against the figures given by Paradox. And they HAVE the actual figures of the actual sales.

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RE: When are you gonna do promotion? - 12/13/2012 3:53:33 PM

DevildogFF

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My money - and support - is with Velihopea.

At least he isn't behaving poorly. Plus, he has a rather good point.

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RE: When are you gonna do promotion? - 12/13/2012 7:26:10 PM

Gareth_Bryne

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Kayoz is Kayoz, rough, sarcastic, in-your-face. Rude... well, he somehow always treads the line but never crosses it

.

Guys, instead of presenting all of your monetary arguments, obviously well-formed and heavily supported by 15-year management experience CVs for GE, whatever side you're on, please remember, that all you CAN do is voice your support for or against Steam. Eric and Elliot are the choosers. Indeed, we might say more or less truthfully that DW sales are more than satisfactory for Matrix and them, since the game just keeps on ticking, and adding expansions (3!) over several years, in spite of (IMHO) a serious lack of promotion and (less importantly for me) non-presence on Steam.

So let's have world peace in our little community, go beat up Darkspire together and eat his popcorn

.

< Message edited by Gareth_Bryne -- 12/13/2012 7:27:37 PM >

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RE: When are you gonna do promotion? - 12/13/2012 9:35:01 PM

ASHBERY76

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Imagine what Elliot could do with a team and a good art budget.The game has had pittance in art assets in the expansions and they even got free unpaid work from Woodman.

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