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Unrealistic Stacking rules: need change

 
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Unrealistic Stacking rules: need change - 12/4/2012 7:12:45 PM   
osiris_slith

 

Posts: 240
Joined: 1/5/2007
Status: offline 		Hi All

Hope we can get a discussion going on stacking rules. After reading Panzer Tactics by Woflgang Schneider and SS Panzer Armor on the Eastern Front by Velimir Vuksic Im pretty much in the camp that the stacking rules in the game are wrong:

I will give a few clear examples

Infantry:
Average spacing between foxholes to reduce casualties from artillery fire was 50m-IN other words 5 men per 250m!! There should be no more then a platoon of infantry per hex or 1 towed weapons platoon

Mounted Infantry
Space between loaded halftracks was at minimum 100m. In other words its very unrealistic to allow players to put 3 full strenght halftrack counters in a single hex unless its in a assembly area

Tactics
In open terrain infantry never dug into forests since these were automtically targeted by enemy artillery
German infantry more often then not due to shortages used tanks as transport

Armor
Average distance between moving tanks of the same platoon was 100m
A German Tank platoon needed 200m width -100m depth to deploy
A attacking german tank company in a wedge formation needed a width of 500m by 400-500m in depth..in other words roughly 3 hexes to deploy a company..3 Panzer units per hex completely unrealistic
A defending german tank company the average spacing between tanks is 100m as per regulations
Tanks driving at full speed was considered to be bad for the tank and dangerous

Since the Allies learned from the Germans one can safely assume the tactics are similar

Underpowered Russian tanks
T34/85 had no problem penning the frontal armor of the Tiger 1 and Panther at 1000m: The M34-85mm gun could penetrate 95mm plate at 60'
A 45mm Russian anti-tank gun can kill a Panther at 250m with a shot into the side armor

Some suggestions on stacking

Infantry and Towed units
2 SP infantry unit: 4 units per hex
3 SP infantry unit: 3 units per hex
4 SP infantry unit: 2 unit per hex
5+ SP infantry unit: 1 unit per hex

Armor
2 SP armor unit: 3 units per hex
3 SP armor unit: 2 units per hex
4+ SP armor unit: 1 unit per hex

Steel Inferno by Micheal Reynolds
Operation Epsom involved 2 infantry brigades attacking side by side but in reality no more then 24 platoons or rougly 800 men led the attack--as John Keegan correctly stated in his book 6 armies in Normandy-no commander puts everything in theshop window

We need to get out of the mentality that armies concentrate units in small spaces they clearly do not and the game stacking rules are out of whack

rene

< Message edited by osiris -- 12/4/2012 7:23:18 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Unrealistic Stacking rules: need change - 12/5/2012 1:34:53 PM   
Otto von Blotto


Posts: 273
Joined: 7/18/2008
Status: offline 		Surely the game already does mimic the real world tactic's you are proposing, yes you can have more in a 250m hex in the game and real life but you will normally get larger causalities that is modeled in the game by the 12 strength points in a hex rule.

If someone stacks up they will draw my fire as I know I have a better chance of a hit and damage to them. Just because the game allows you to do something silly like stacking up too much strength in a single hex doesn't mean you have too force people to play a particular (correct) way and hard wire it into the game leave the player with some critical decisions to make.

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RE: Unrealistic Stacking rules: need change - 12/6/2012 2:38:53 PM   
Jason Petho


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Status: offline 		Precisely, Otto von Blotto.

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RE: Unrealistic Stacking rules: need change - 12/6/2012 6:28:31 PM   
MrRoadrunner


Posts: 1323
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline 		I was also going to point out that a 250 meter hex is 250 x 250. There is depth to the hex?

Suggesting that a foxhole every 50 meters to avoid artillery fire assumes a defensive position only. As well as, one man per foxhole and foxholes only in the first 50 meters of the depth of the hex?

Some points are O.K. but is it worth changing for them?

RR

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RE: Unrealistic Stacking rules: need change - 12/16/2012 1:22:49 PM   
VadeS

 

Posts: 25
Joined: 11/9/2012
Status: offline 		On the other hand in real world soldiers don't use dice roll to check their morale and fire effect

Like Otto said you are allowed to make things but it doesn't mean you have to do it.


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Post #: 5
RE: underpowered Russian tanks - 6/18/2013 8:08:22 AM   
albertross

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 6/18/2013
Status: offline 		Totally agree with your comments! But it's not just the Russians - I have found West Front to be 'German biased' too - example I've just been playing a scenario where US 90mm guns failed to scratch the paintwork on the side of Panther tanks, from the adjacent hex and with the armor facing rules on!

My other pet hate is the almost psychic ability of A/I tanks to spot, acquire and destroy any target from medium tanks to small, fast moving jeeps from any angle - including behind them! This makes it impossible to use real world tactics to stalk an enemy unit and get the first shot in; it also makes some of the scenarios totally boring and unwinnable.

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RE: underpowered Russian tanks - 6/18/2013 9:41:50 AM   
LoneWulf63


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From: Columbia, South Carolina
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quote:

ORIGINAL: albertross

Totally agree with your comments! But it's not just the Russians - I have found West Front to be 'German biased' too - example I've just been playing a scenario where US 90mm guns failed to scratch the paintwork on the side of Panther tanks, from the adjacent hex and with the armor facing rules on!

My other pet hate is the almost psychic ability of A/I tanks to spot, acquire and destroy any target from medium tanks to small, fast moving jeeps from any angle - including behind them! This makes it impossible to use real world tactics to stalk an enemy unit and get the first shot in; it also makes some of the scenarios totally boring and unwinnable.


You can modify the armor rating any vehicle in the game and the attack (HE/AP) values for any weapon in the game. The values for vehicles and weapons are found in the platoonXX.oob (the Germans are platoon01.oob) and weapon.pdt files. Just use your Windows Notepad program to rewrite the files and then have someone from the forums encrypt them for you. Don't forget (like this old geezer did) to back-up your original platoon and weapon files. One of my pet peeves is how HE fire (direct or indirect) is attenuated due to range. I have posted my views on that matter in the past. It does work and you can remove the German bias.

I will admit that the A/I is rather psychic at times, but still a fine game....at least for me it is.

< Message edited by resinslinger -- 6/18/2013 9:49:56 AM >

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RE: underpowered Russian tanks - 6/18/2013 3:54:19 PM   
budd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: albertross

My other pet hate is the almost psychic ability of A/I tanks to spot, acquire and destroy any target from medium tanks to small, fast moving jeeps from any angle - including behind them! This makes it impossible to use real world tactics to stalk an enemy unit and get the first shot in; it also makes some of the scenarios totally boring and unwinnable.


This was one of the things that frustrated me about steel panthers. The spin and snap shots by the AI units when you managed to get in position for flank or rear shots.

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RE: underpowered Russian tanks - 6/18/2013 6:37:54 PM   
albertross

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: resinslinger
You can modify the armor rating any vehicle in the game and the attack (HE/AP) values for any weapon in the game. The values for vehicles and weapons are found in the platoonXX.oob (the Germans are platoon01.oob) and weapon.pdt files.


I wish I knew how to do that; we all know the Panther was a tough target head on - and almost impossible once they fixed the shot trap under the mantlet, but it's side armor was notoriously thin and vulnerable to the Sherman's 75 and T.34's 76.2mm gun at any range.

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Post #: 9
RE: underpowered Russian tanks - 6/18/2013 9:17:13 PM   
LoneWulf63


Posts: 905
Joined: 10/21/2011
From: Columbia, South Carolina
Status: offline 		It is rather easy to do, but can be tedious as well. If you will send me an email from here, I will be more than happy to explain it to you. The way I see it, it is my turn to help others as others have helped me in the past. Chris.

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RE: underpowered Russian tanks - 6/18/2013 9:21:28 PM   
LoneWulf63


Posts: 905
Joined: 10/21/2011
From: Columbia, South Carolina
Status: offline 		As far as the A/I being psychic, you have to remember that this is an OLD GIRL as far as computer games are concerned. I don't know if this matter is going to be resolved in the 1.05 patch or not. The best way to play this game, the absolute best way, is via email. I am testing one of my PGFoF conversion scenarios with one of the JTCS forum members and it is great, even if my French butt is getting kicked.

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RE: underpowered Russian tanks - 6/18/2013 10:33:46 PM   
Warhorse


Posts: 5712
Joined: 5/12/2000
From: Birdsboro, PA, USA
Status: offline 		Yep seriously, PBEM is the way to go!! I just got into that a couple years ago, after modding the old girl and playing DCG's since 1998!! I now have a very hard time playing a scenario against the AI, playing a person is very exciting, just to see how the other guy handles the units!! Hell, pick a scenario you would like to play, then go to the Blitz, or post here, and someone will take you on!!

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RE: underpowered Russian tanks - 6/19/2013 12:04:29 AM   
albertross

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 6/18/2013
Status: offline 		Hi folks, thanks for the replies - what a great, friendly bunch of people on here! Makes a welcome change from some of the miniatures gaming forums ;) Yes, this is an old gal indeed: I got my first copies of WF and EF back in around 1997 or 98!

Since them I remarried, retired, moved halfway across the world, bought an online copy of JTCS in 2007 and lost it all when my computer HD died. I was going through some archived files last week and found my 2007 receipt and serial number; to my delight Matrix sent me a link to download a fresh copy, so like General MacArthur, "I have returned"

Stuart

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Post #: 13
RE: underpowered Russian tanks - 6/19/2013 1:42:52 AM   
Warhorse


Posts: 5712
Joined: 5/12/2000
From: Birdsboro, PA, USA
Status: offline 		NICE!!! Did you get it updated to 1.04 and everything? Also, are you at all on TheBlitz forums at all? That's a great place for picking up PBEM opponents! Also is the Wargaming Club for Gentlemen, they are new, but great bunch there as well!


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RE: underpowered Russian tanks - 6/19/2013 2:48:00 AM   
albertross

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 6/18/2013
Status: offline 		Um.....I don't know! As I only downloaded it two days ago I presume it is the latest version? One of the first things I did was something I have wanted to do since day one: replace some of the more irritating sound effect files now that I have found a free on line conversion tool. It's a monumental task! Question: if I update the game will I lose those modifications?

Never played by email before (hence my gripes about the A/I) but I will check it out for sure!

Stuart

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Post #: 15
RE: underpowered Russian tanks - 6/19/2013 6:48:28 AM   
Wolfie1

 

Posts: 360
Joined: 12/22/2004
From: Blackpool, England
Status: offline 		Check out the top menu - far right hand side "about" pull down menu, that will tell you what version you are running. The PBEM standard is 1.04.

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RE: underpowered Russian tanks - 6/19/2013 7:26:11 AM   
albertross

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 6/18/2013
Status: offline 		Thanks! I opened up the last WF scenario I played, and through the acrid smoke of burning Shermans (mine), I found it behind a horde of Tigers .

It said copyright 2007, 2.0 I guess that is the latest?

< Message edited by albertross -- 6/19/2013 7:28:12 AM >

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RE: underpowered Russian tanks - 6/19/2013 7:37:40 AM   
berto


Posts: 20708
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From: metro Chicago, Illinois, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: resinslinger

As far as the A/I being psychic, you have to remember that this is an OLD GIRL as far as computer games are concerned. I don't know if this matter is going to be resolved in the 1.05 patch or not...

Most probably not. Fixing the AI is not a realistic near-term goal. After 1.05 I'm afraid to say.

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RE: underpowered Russian tanks - 6/19/2013 9:59:20 AM   
MrRoadrunner


Posts: 1323
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quote:

ORIGINAL: albertross

Thanks! I opened up the last WF scenario I played, and through the acrid smoke of burning Shermans (mine), I found it behind a horde of Tigers .

It said copyright 2007, 2.0 I guess that is the latest?


It should say version 1.04.

RR

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RE: underpowered Russian tanks - 6/19/2013 10:45:09 AM   
Warhorse


Posts: 5712
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From: Birdsboro, PA, USA
Status: offline 		I would put all your sounds in another folder for backup, or, use JSGME, a mod-swapping utility, I think there is a link somewhere in the Matrix forum to get that. Otherwise, I can send the modswapper file to you tonight.

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RE: underpowered Russian tanks - 6/19/2013 2:50:22 PM   
Crossroads


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Status: offline 		EDIT; oopps, wrong thread, was answering Mike's post. Regarding sound files: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3159396&mpage=1&key=�



I absolutely recommend using JSGME for sound file modding as well. It can be downloaded here: http://www.gamefront.com/files/21681483 or here: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/downloads.php?do=file&id=3759

There is a sound mod already available, made by RD_DeathDealer. It can be downloaded here (look for Other Mods): http://www.theblitz.org/message_boards/showthread.php?tid=63460

I have also created an alternative EF and WF "soundtrack mod" via replacing the original music ogg's with WW II movie themes from a CD I bought. That mod is not available to others for obvious copyright reasons, but instructions how to do it can be found here: http://www.theblitz.org/message_boards/showthread.php?tid=58236&highlight=sounds

Enjoy! :)

< Message edited by Crossroads -- 6/19/2013 2:53:04 PM >

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