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Ground Element Types - 12/27/2012 9:11:37 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Pardon me if what I report here is suspicious only because of my lack of knowledge.

1. "Naval Gun" requires no support squads.

2. "HT CS/Howitzer" has CV 3, while in manual it is reported as having CV 5 (section 26.1.4 Ground Element Type and Combat Values)

3. "Special Forces" has CV 0 and is not listed in the manual (same section as above)

4. "Marine Commando" has CV 0 and is not listed in the manual

5. "Airborne Engineer" has CV 0 and is not listed in the manual

6. "AAMG" has CV 1, while in manual it is reported as having CV 0

7. "MSW Tank" is probably of the wrong class, because it requires trucks when motorized (one per element)

8. "Engineer Tank" is probably of the wrong class, because it requires trucks when motorized (one per element)

9. "Barge" is not listed in the manual

10. "Air Landing Section" has support need 0 and CV 0 and is not listed in the manual

11. "Heavy AT Gun" is not listed in the manual and it's support need is wrong, but I know it's already fixed in the coming patch

12. "Light AT Gun" support need is wrong, but I know it's already fixed in the coming patch

13. "Heavy Infantry Gun" support need is wrong, but I know it's already fixed in the coming patch

14. "Light Artillery" is not listed in the manual

15. "Airborne Tank" is not listed in the manual (it has CV 7)

16. "Recon Jeep" is not listed in the manual (it has CV 1)

17. "Partisan Squad" is not listed in the manual (it has CV 2)

18. "HQ Troops" is not listed in the manual (it has CV 0)

19. "Ammo Truck" is not listed in the manual (it has CV 0)

20. "Light Mortar" is not listed in the manual (it has CV 0)

21. "Heavy Mortar" is not listed in the manual (it has CV 0)

22. "CS Cavalry Tank" has CV 0 and is not listed in the manual

23. "CS Infantry Tank" has CV 0 and is not listed in the manual

24. "Light Armored Car" has CV 0 and is not listed in the manual

25. "Armoured Personnel Carrier" is listed in the manual, although there is no such ground element type

I know some of those types are not used in WitE, but since they are available in the editor, they should be functional (have proper supply need, CV and class).

One other issue I want to mention is about "Cavalry Squads" and "Motorcycle Squads" requiring trucks (1 per squad) when motorized. I guess they should be treated as "Mech Infantry" with intrisinc transports. Of course this may be impossible to fix in WitE since might break the balance. Also, CV values of some types should be revised ("Hvy Assault Gun" having lower CV than "Light Tank" for example), which as I know have been revised for the new game, but I understand it may be too late for WitE. At least please fix the CV 0 elements listed above, so they become usable.
Post #: 1
RE: Ground Element Types - 12/27/2012 9:23:12 PM   
sjohnson

 

Posts: 119
Joined: 12/17/2007
Status: offline 		Light armored car with CV = 0 could be a small issue; I thought some starting German armored cars were Sdkfz-221s which shows as light armored car?

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 2
RE: Ground Element Types - 12/27/2012 9:23:39 PM   
sjohnson

 

Posts: 119
Joined: 12/17/2007
Status: offline 		Also, how did you determine the actual CV values?

(in reply to sjohnson)
Post #: 3
RE: Ground Element Types - 12/27/2012 9:44:50 PM   
Helpless


Posts: 15793
Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: offline 		Many of listed items were added in early stage of WITW development and should not be used in WITE.

_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

(in reply to sjohnson)
Post #: 4
RE: Ground Element Types - 12/27/2012 9:51:53 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Maybe it's better to fix those that need fixing, and clear the rest (make them inaccessible) since if they are not correct they should never be used.

(in reply to Helpless)
Post #: 5
RE: Ground Element Types - 12/27/2012 9:55:03 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sjohnson

Also, how did you determine the actual CV values?


Mostly this involved some heavy lifting in the editor (to use the same ground element but change it's type and observe the changes).

(in reply to sjohnson)
Post #: 6
RE: Ground Element Types - 12/27/2012 9:56:24 PM   
Helpless


Posts: 15793
Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: offline 		GT manipulation in WITE is very tedious job. There is a lot more chances to break something essential, while fixing chrome items.

_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 7
RE: Ground Element Types - 12/27/2012 10:01:07 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Even if it's hardcoded as some constant values or defines, it should be pretty easy to change a few numbers. Even if several numbers are packed into single integers. From what I have seen the support need were pretty straightforward once in memory (array of 4-byte integers), don't know how it's stored in the exe though. If I could be of some help with this, I'm here.

Edit: it's just my "data nazi" attitude, feel free to ignore when tired :-) for me there is no such thing as chrome in data. Either it's unused then it should be removed not to clutter and present false choices, or it's bad, wrong, incomplete and should be fixed. Worst kind is "bad and unused", then either choice is correct, but such data cannot be allowed to linger. It's just source of bugs yet to be found or to be introduced in the future...

< Message edited by morvael -- 12/27/2012 10:16:31 PM >

(in reply to Helpless)
Post #: 8
RE: Ground Element Types - 12/27/2012 10:12:26 PM   
Helpless


Posts: 15793
Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: offline 		It is more complex than you may think.

_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 9
RE: Ground Element Types - 12/27/2012 10:14:51 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Don't say it's hardcoded, but in several places separately (and in different format in each place, and without using defines, just numeric constants) :-)

< Message edited by morvael -- 12/27/2012 10:21:24 PM >

(in reply to Helpless)
Post #: 10
RE: Ground Element Types - 12/27/2012 10:21:08 PM   
Helpless


Posts: 15793
Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Don't say it's hardcoded, but in several places separately (and in different format in each place) :-)


You got it right. It took me several days to build separate data type out of it in WITW.

_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 11
RE: Ground Element Types - 12/27/2012 10:22:28 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

quote:

Don't say it's hardcoded, but in several places separately (and in different format in each place) :-)


You got it right. It took me several days to build separate data type out of it in WITW.


Then you did a great job, as I have seen. Really, that's the way it should always be done. Spaghetti code is not the way to go :-)

(in reply to Helpless)
Post #: 12
RE: Ground Element Types - 12/27/2012 10:25:56 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		That way my whole report may be thrown into trash, since a different code may calculate those values in the editor and a different one during the game (and it may have it's own set of issues).

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 13
RE: Ground Element Types - 12/27/2012 10:37:34 PM   
Helpless


Posts: 15793
Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

That way my whole report may be thrown into trash


Most of them are valid issues, but they are "early" WITW items. Easiest thing to do would be to hide them in WITE editor.

Eventually we plan to make a version which adds some new game options and editor features. It would be possible to make ground types editable as in WITW.

_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 14
RE: Ground Element Types - 12/27/2012 10:49:43 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Actually, most items are either unused (so hiding will be enough) or not listed in the manual (easy to fix). Those few items with CV 0 or wrong class should be fixed only if there are real elements using them, the rest can be hidden too. That way the really hard work will concern no more than 1-3 types. I will try to prepare a follow up report, listing those types that are really in use.

Anyway, I was already thinking about WitE 1.5 where some goodies from WitW could be added, without inventing the game from scratch and/or adding new functionalities (that would be reserved for WitE 2.0). You could probably charge for this WitE 1.5 as for an upgrade/scenario pack requiring the base game to install, yet offering many new features backported from WitW. It's good to know that you are thinking along the same lines :-)

(in reply to Helpless)
Post #: 15
RE: Ground Element Types - 12/28/2012 12:46:48 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		After review:

1) To be left as is (2): Cavalry Squad, Motorcycle Squad

2) To be added/fixed/removed to/in/from the manual (9): HT CS/Howitzer, AAMG, Heavy AT Gun, Partisan Squad, HQ Troops, Light Mortar, Heavy Mortar, Light Armored Car, Armoured Personnel Carrier

3) To be hidden in the editor (14): Naval Gun, Special Forces, Marine Commando, Airborne Engineer, MSW Tank, Engineer Tank, Barge (one may wish to clear elements with id 1476, 1477 and 1478 as they use this type, but are otherwise blank), Air Landing Section, Light Artillery, Airborne Tank, Recon Jeep, Ammo Truck, CS Cavalry Tank, CS Infantry Tank

4) To be fixed in the code (1): Light Armored Car - CV from 0 to 2

Presented that way a real change to the code amounts to one CV change and the rest is just hiding the types in the editor. Editing the manual can't be difficult at all.

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 16
RE: Ground Element Types - 12/28/2012 1:57:40 PM   
jaw

 

Posts: 1045
Joined: 7/24/2009
Status: offline 		I've already corrected the ground type values for WitW. I do not know if these corrections will be retrofitted to WitE or we will wait for WitE 2.0.

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 17
RE: Ground Element Types - 12/28/2012 2:39:26 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Yes, in this thread I'm just asking for a minor fix to WitE types. For WitW I have posted my questions elsewhere.

(in reply to jaw)
Post #: 18
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