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Scenario Balancing (Naval)

 
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Scenario Balancing (Naval) - 12/30/2012 3:52:01 AM   
pat.casey

 

Posts: 393
Joined: 9/10/2007
Status: offline 		Generally I'm a really big fan of this game, so I don't want to make this sound like angry complaining (I'm not angry, I'm a satisfied customer), but I think the naval aspects of the game can be improved in at least two areas.

Scenario Start Balance:

Historically, when WW I launched, there was a vast disparity in the fleet sizes of hte major powers.

Dreadnaught strength:

Britain: 29
Germany: 17
France: 10
Russia: 4
Austo-Hungarian Empire: 4

In the game though, all five of these powers start with a *single* 10 strength battleship counter.

If you want to assume that a counter represents a 4 ship squadron, then you'd want to start:

UK ... 7
Germany ... 4
France ... 2 or 3
Russian ... 1
Austria ... 1

Starting everybody off at one counter each means things like Russia can contest control of the baltic, or that the austrians can decide to challenge British naval supremacy because, hey, they basically start out tied.

Submarine value:

Maybe its just me, but even mid war submarines seem to have limited ability to attack even convoy escorts on the high seas. When a full strength 10 point submarine counter consistently trades 3 damage to a convoy for 2 damage to itself, the whole value of the submarine is questionable.

Likewise, the use of submarines against dreadnaughts isn't well modelled. During WW I, submarines actually accounted for quite a few dreadnaught and pre-dreadnaught kills (I pretty quickly got up to 9 capital ships sunk by submarines), which is actually more than the combined butcher's bill at dogger bank and jutland.

Post #: 1
RE: Scenario Balancing (Naval) - 1/1/2013 2:26:01 AM   
kirk23


Posts: 2885
Joined: 10/15/2010
From: Fife Scotland
Status: offline 		Hi your thoughts are a mirrored image of mine, in regard to the Naval game,even if 1 counter represented 10 capital ships,its still better than 1 counter counting as all the capital ships a Nation has,I mean to say Britain has 40 Pre-Dreadnoughts,35 Dreadnoughts & 12 Battlecruisers all supposed to be crammed into 1 counter,that just NUTS !!

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RE: Scenario Balancing (Naval) - 1/1/2013 4:41:57 AM   
pat.casey

 

Posts: 393
Joined: 9/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kirk23

Hi your thoughts are a mirrored image of mine, in regard to the Naval game,even if 1 counter represented 10 capital ships,its still better than 1 counter counting as all the capital ships a Nation has,I mean to say Britain has 40 Pre-Dreadnoughts,35 Dreadnoughts & 12 Battlecruisers all supposed to be crammed into 1 counter,that just NUTS !!


I don't mind the counter cramming so much, for gameplay reasons I've no objection if a counter represents > 1 capital ship.

Its the normalization of the forces that bothers me since it impacts balance.

if a counter represented a dreadnaught, then I'd expect britain to get 29 and germany to get 17.
If a counter represented 5 dreadnaughts then I'd expect britain to get 6 and germany to get 3, etc.

I think I read in another post that the devs did this on purpose for gameplay reasons though. Something to the effect of "if we gave out the historical starting ships then britain would absolutely dominate the naval game and there'd be no point to it".

Personally, I'm all for that, since I think it opens up a number of interesting counter-historical options ... Britain *did* rule the worlds oceans. What if she'd done a baltic adventure? What if she'd transhipped artillery and aircraft to russia?

Anyway, sounds unlikely it'll be changed outside of a mod... c'est la vie.

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RE: Scenario Balancing (Naval) - 1/1/2013 12:22:49 PM   
kirk23


Posts: 2885
Joined: 10/15/2010
From: Fife Scotland
Status: offline 		Well the designers scored an own goal as far as I can see,how does making Britain, as the undisputed ruler of the worlds ocean in this era,being pegged back to be on equal terms with say Austria-Hungary!

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RE: Scenario Balancing (Naval) - 1/1/2013 3:41:26 PM   
kirk23


Posts: 2885
Joined: 10/15/2010
From: Fife Scotland
Status: offline 		Also taking Britain as an example here,if Britain has only 1 Battleship counter in the game,how can you protect the North Sea + take part in the Gallipoli offensive in the MED you can't do both with 1 counter?

Thats what the Pre-Dreadnoughts were used for,Britain & France sent the old Battleships to the Gallipoli landings.

Major Powers Pre-Dreadnoughts Strenght.

Britain = 40

Germany = 22

France = 29

Russia = 12

Austria-Hungary = 12

If you were to assume that a Battleship counter represents a 10 ship squadron/Fleet, then you'd want to start:

Britain ... 4

Germany ... 2

France ... 3

Russia ... 1

Austria-Hungary ... 1

< Message edited by kirk23 -- 1/1/2013 3:56:59 PM >

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RE: Scenario Balancing (Naval) - 1/1/2013 7:28:04 PM   
Hakmeister

 

Posts: 35
Joined: 8/5/2007
Status: offline 		Let's not forget that there was a Turkish fleet. The Goeben was a battlecruiser. It makes sense for Turkey to have a cruiser counter to represent her small navy. As for the British and French, don't forget that some of their ships were spread out to protect their colonial empires. You could simulate this by reducing their battlefleets by 1 each. The new forces would be:

Britain = 3
Germany = 2
France = 2
Italy = 1
Russia = 1
AH = 1

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Post #: 6
RE: Scenario Balancing (Naval) - 1/1/2013 9:25:02 PM   
kirk23


Posts: 2885
Joined: 10/15/2010
From: Fife Scotland
Status: offline 		Britians overseas colonial empire was protected by Armoured & Light cruisers and very rarely by ships from the battlefleets,except when the Battlecruisers went after Admiral Von Spee's cruiser squadron.The Pre-Dreadnoughts were used to protect the English Channel or as heavy convoy escorts or during the Gallipoli Campaign.

< Message edited by kirk23 -- 1/1/2013 9:28:06 PM >

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RE: Scenario Balancing (Naval) - 1/4/2013 11:59:46 PM   
pat.casey

 

Posts: 393
Joined: 9/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hakmeister

Let's not forget that there was a Turkish fleet. The Goeben was a battlecruiser. It makes sense for Turkey to have a cruiser counter to represent her small navy. As for the British and French, don't forget that some of their ships were spread out to protect their colonial empires. You could simulate this by reducing their battlefleets by 1 each. The new forces would be:

Britain = 3
Germany = 2
France = 2
Italy = 1
Russia = 1
AH = 1


Well, to be fair, the turks had a fleet because the German mediterranean squadron started the war by sailing to constantinople and "gifting" itself to the ottoman empire. if you want to simulate this in game, you should start with an understrength german cruiser counter in the med.

If the germans get it to turkey, it becomes turkish and turkey's diplomatic stance shifts towards the central powers.
If hte british sink it before it makes turkey, then no turkish fleet.

There was actually considerable controversy in later 1914 as to how the british Mediterranean fleet let the Goeben "escape" into Turkey, which was probably at least partly justified. The British *should* have sunk the Goeben. The fact that it made it to turkey was partly good seamanship on the German's part, but also partly just plain bad execution on the British part on search.

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Post #: 8
RE: Scenario Balancing (Naval) - 1/5/2013 11:05:04 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pat.casey


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hakmeister

Let's not forget that there was a Turkish fleet. The Goeben was a battlecruiser. It makes sense for Turkey to have a cruiser counter to represent her small navy. As for the British and French, don't forget that some of their ships were spread out to protect their colonial empires. You could simulate this by reducing their battlefleets by 1 each. The new forces would be:

Britain = 3
Germany = 2
France = 2
Italy = 1
Russia = 1
AH = 1


Well, to be fair, the turks had a fleet because the German mediterranean squadron started the war by sailing to constantinople and "gifting" itself to the ottoman empire. if you want to simulate this in game, you should start with an understrength german cruiser counter in the med.

If the germans get it to turkey, it becomes turkish and turkey's diplomatic stance shifts towards the central powers.
If hte british sink it before it makes turkey, then no turkish fleet.

There was actually considerable controversy in later 1914 as to how the british Mediterranean fleet let the Goeben "escape" into Turkey, which was probably at least partly justified. The British *should* have sunk the Goeben. The fact that it made it to turkey was partly good seamanship on the German's part, but also partly just plain bad execution on the British part on search.
warspite1

An interesting what if. Had Milne deployed a battlecruiser at each end of the Straits of Messina and Goeben never been allowed to get away, would Turkey ever have entered the war?

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Post #: 9
RE: Scenario Balancing (Naval) - 1/5/2013 11:08:54 AM   
JJKettunen


Posts: 3530
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline 		I'd say that Turkey was "allowed" to join CP, because Russia (and many others) wanted its disintegration.

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The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

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Post #: 10
RE: Scenario Balancing (Naval) - 1/5/2013 11:20:15 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke

I'd say that Turkey was "allowed" to join CP, because Russia (and many others) wanted its disintegration.
warspite1

But it was the Goeben and Breslau that gave the Turkish War Minister the tools to get them in....

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Post #: 11
RE: Scenario Balancing (Naval) - 1/5/2013 11:28:08 AM   
JJKettunen


Posts: 3530
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke

I'd say that Turkey was "allowed" to join CP, because Russia (and many others) wanted its disintegration.
warspite1

But it was the Goeben and Breslau that gave the Turkish War Minister the tools to get them in....


...so they were not destroyed...

just speculating


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Jyri Kettunen

The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

- A. Solzhenitsyn

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Post #: 12
RE: Scenario Balancing (Naval) - 1/5/2013 11:47:28 AM   
kirk23


Posts: 2885
Joined: 10/15/2010
From: Fife Scotland
Status: offline 		Goeben was scrapped in 1971 or should I say the Yavuz Sultan Selim as Turkey had renamed her.

< Message edited by kirk23 -- 1/5/2013 11:55:32 AM >

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