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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Scenario Design and Modding >> Aussie Arty??

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Aussie Arty?? - 1/4/2013 6:37:03 PM

Natali

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I have two questions. 1 is about the CMF artillery in 1941. Unit historys talk about the reorganization of the field artillery from brigade to regiment in 1941 and say the organization was 2 troops of 18-pdr and a troop of 4.5-in. Does anybody know the size of a troop? Was it 4 guns, like in 2 sections of 2 guns each, or what? I have seen references all over the map from 8x 18-pdr guns and 4x 4.5-in hwoitzers all the way up to 16x 18-pdr guns and 8x 4.5-in howitzers. I am inclined to the 8 and 4 version because that was more in line with the WW-I establishment and the AIF artillery units had to train in batches before they got reorged into the Brit model with 24 gun 25-pdr units. Help would be great.

2 is the Hy batterys. Niehorster just shows them as Hy Arty, but all the unit histories I can find say they were coast arty with 60-pdr or 6-in Mk VII guns. Anybody know different? And Niehorster has a glitch. He doubles down on every heavy battery. He has 1 and 101, 2 and 102, 13 and 113 � but the 113 unit history says it was renumbered from 13 when the great AIF/PMF/CMF renumbering took place. Is Niehorster double counting and listing the same unit twice with its old number and then its new number? Can anybody help with this too?

Post #: 1

RE: Aussie Arty?? - 1/4/2013 10:19:28 PM

JeffroK

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Doesnt answer the questions but looks an interesting read

http://www.army.gov.au/Our-history/Army-History-Unit/Chief-of-Army-History-Conference/Previous-Conference-Proceedings/~/media/Files/Our%20history/AAHU/Conference%20Papers%20and%20Images/2003/2003-The_Pacific_War_1943-1944_Part_1.ashx

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RE: Aussie Arty?? - 1/4/2013 10:27:18 PM

JeffroK

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From the AWM site

https://www.awm.gov.au/units/unit_10324second_world_war.asp

I am not sure what the W/E was, while this states the actual numbers they may have been at a peace time strength until 7/12/41

The 4th Australian Field Artillery Brigade was raised in Albert Park, Melbourne, in September 1915 as part of the 2nd Division. The brigade served in Egypt and the Western Front during the First World War. During the interwar period as a Militia unit, the regiment was based in St Kilda, Victoria, and was attached to the 3rd Division. Following Japan�s entry into the war in December 1941, and the rapid advance through South East Asia and the Pacific, the unit, now the 4th Field Regiment was mobilised as a two battery unit (each battery had six 18-pounder guns) at Bonegilla where the regiment was under the command of the 4th Brigade.

In March the regiment moved to Connelly�s Dam, south of Warwick, Queensland, where a third battery was raised. By the end of April the regiment had its full establishment of 18 25-pounder guns as well as 12 18-pounders and four 4.5 inch Howitzers. At this time too, the 4th Brigade was deployed to the Maroochydore, Brisbane, Southport area. While there, the 4th Field Regiment trained with the 7th Division�s 2/4th Field Regiment. In June the 4th moved to Cabarlah, near Toowoomba.

And about the 2/4 Field Rgt
https://www.awm.gov.au/units/unit_10368second_world_war.asp

Following the formation of the 6th Division, in early 1940 it was decided that the 2nd Australian Imperial Force (AIF) would be expanded. The decision to raise the 7th Division was made in February 1940 and, following the appointment of its first commanding officer, Lieutenant Colonel Lewis Barker, the 2/4th Field Regiment began recruiting at Caulfield Racecourse, Melbourne, on 7 May. Many of its first officers and men came from the 4th Australian Field Artillery Brigade, of the pre-war Militia, based at St Kilda, Melbourne. The regiment was formed and trained at Puckapunyal, Victoria, where it had two batteries - 7th and 8th- each consisting of three troops and four 18-pounder guns.

The regiment embarked for overseas service in October, leaving Port Melbourne on 21 October and arriving in Egypt in November. Disembarking at El Kantara, Suez, the regiment travelled by train to Deir Suneid, Palestine. However, the regiment did not receive its first guns until January 1941 and it was not until mid-April, when the unit was at Ikingi Maryut, that it received its full compliment of 25-pounders, 18-pounders, and 4.5 inch howitzers.

< Message edited by JeffK -- 1/4/2013 10:28:52 PM >

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RE: Aussie Arty?? - 1/4/2013 10:39:10 PM

JeffroK

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From the Aust Official History
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/records/awmohww2/army/vol1/awmohww2-army-vol1-ch2.pdf

The artillery units also were reorganised to conform with the new
British tables. Whereas the militia artillery "brigades" included two
batteries of 18-pounder guns and one of 4 .5-inch howitzers, the new units
would be called "regiments"' and consist of two batteries each of twelve
of the new 25-pounders which could do the work both of gun and howitzer.
Pending the arrival of the new guns an alternative organisation provided
that each battery of the Australian regiments included eight 18-pounders
and four howitzers .

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RE: Aussie Arty?? - 1/5/2013 7:53:19 AM

inqistor

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Natali

I have two questions. 1 is about the CMF artillery in 1941. Unit historys talk about the reorganization of the field artillery from brigade to regiment in 1941 and say the organization was 2 troops of 18-pdr and a troop of 4.5-in. Does anybody know the size of a troop? Was it 4 guns, like in 2 sections of 2 guns each, or what?

In theory troop is 4 guns, but you have to check every unit individually. Sometimes there were only 3 guns, in TOE, not because of shortages (OK, maybe shortages of those fancy British trailers). And I think I have seen somewhere even 6. But not-4s are mostly in only one troop in unit, the rest uses standard 4.

(in reply to Natali)

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RE: Aussie Arty?? - 1/6/2013 6:01:19 PM

Natali

Posts: 103
Joined: 9/18/2012
From: Ocatillo Land
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK
And about the 2/4 Field Rgt
https://www.awm.gov.au/units/unit_10368second_world_war.asp

Following the formation of the 6th Division, in early 1940 it was decided that the 2nd Australian Imperial Force (AIF) would be expanded. The decision to raise the 7th Division was made in February 1940 and, following the appointment of its first commanding officer, Lieutenant Colonel Lewis Barker, the 2/4th Field Regiment began recruiting at Caulfield Racecourse, Melbourne, on 7 May. Many of its first officers and men came from the 4th Australian Field Artillery Brigade, of the pre-war Militia, based at St Kilda, Melbourne. The regiment was formed and trained at Puckapunyal, Victoria, where it had two batteries - 7th and 8th- each consisting of three troops and four 18-pounder guns.

The regiment embarked for overseas service in October, leaving Port Melbourne on 21 October and arriving in Egypt in November. Disembarking at El Kantara, Suez, the regiment travelled by train to Deir Suneid, Palestine. However, the regiment did not receive its first guns until January 1941 and it was not until mid-April, when the unit was at Ikingi Maryut, that it received its full compliment of 25-pounders, 18-pounders, and 4.5 inch howitzers.

LOL JoffK, we read the same things! That's good to know there isn't some thing I am missing.

Yes, it is a rat's nest isn't it? I am digging furiously and think I have an organization evolutuin for the 1AIF/CMF 7 Field Brigade/7 Field Regiment RAA (M) AND the 2AIF 2/7 Field Regiment, and also the 1AIF/CMF 4 Field Brigade/4 Field Regiment RAA (M) AND the 2AIF 2/4 Field Regiment. I have all the dates and everything and it's from regiment historys. From the AWN site, and an archive of the old Digger History site and
http://www.aif.adfa.edu.au:8888/Artillery.html
http://www.7fd-regt-raa-association.com/
and a book on the history of the 4th Field Regiment by Arthur Burke.

It is beginning to come clear. Organizations happened different between the CMF and AIF and organizations happened different with different CMF. The 7 FB was 3 AFA (25, 26, 27) and 1 H btty (107) in April 1941. The AFA bttys had 4x 18pdr guns and the H btty had 4x 4.5 howitzers. On "paper" I bet. It was mobilized in October 1941, and still had the same organization. In Nov/Dec 1941, it got 25pdrs and disbanded 107 btty moved the people and reorganized 25, 26, 27 bttys as 2 troops of 4x 25pdrs each. So it was different from the Brit WE/31/7A scale which was 2x bttys of 3 troops of 4x 25pdrs each, it was a lot more like the Brit 42 scale, so wtth? And they also got 25pdrs way earlier than 2/7 FR.

I think when the AIF ARs got established, the reorgainzation was in process. Since they were new, they got the new org sooner and they got established on a six gun btty. That's why the references talk about an establishment of 18x 25pdrs. Some got this, but most were raised early and had the hybrid bttys of 18 pdrs and 4.5s. And then they went away, and finally got their 25 pdrs but still had their old equipment, so there's references to establishments of 18x 25 pdrs and also 12x 18 pdrs and 4x 4.5s. The history of the 2/10 AFA refers to using "reserve" howitzers and 2x 18 pdrs as a "special" battery troop, so maybe the artillery park had the old stuff in it too.

This is great, JeffK, anything you can find on this will help me a lot. I am not happy with what the Aus CMF OOBs are like in Babes, and I want to make them better. Hope you can help.

Regards, Sami

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Post #: 6

RE: Aussie Arty?? - 1/8/2013 7:28:52 PM

Natali

Posts: 103
Joined: 9/18/2012
From: Ocatillo Land
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Owww! This is devastating. I had a nice set ot ToE and OOBs and everything, but got told they won't work because of the AI. Now I have to go back and redo many things. There is like hundreds of lines in every AI file that look for particular slots and it just doesn't work to try and get better. It is like a strait jacket where all you can move is fingers and toes. I have always hated the AI because it was what somebody else said what would happen but I hate it even more now because once something is in the AI you cannot change the oob without breaking the game.

The 42 scenario will have to have all the OOB defects of stock. Can modifies the ToEs as best I can under the strait jacket. The point, I guess, is to have a 42 GC scenario that plays with both side AI and uses stock AI. Maybe I tried to push too far and got my hands slapped.

Learning lots of things, but it's killing me. Can't use them because of the AI. Whoever makes the AI puts the OOB into cement. Did I mention that I hate the AI? Aaaarrgh, Sami

(in reply to Natali)

Post #: 7