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RE: OT - best soldiers in WWII

 
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RE: OT - best soldiers in WWII - 9/8/2012 5:54:12 AM   
tigercub


Posts: 2004
Joined: 2/3/2003
From: brisbane oz
Status: offline 		which nationality had the best soldiers...

being that all men are the same it boils down to leader ship,experience,weapons,morale

the germans got the upper hand with experience...there on the spot leaders were top class...weapons some of the best in the world...morale very strong for the until the end of 43 then started to slide.

number 1 for me.

but if you were to say a year of the war it would change say in late 44 russian would be my pick.

Tiger

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Post #: 31
RE: OT - best soldiers in WWII - 9/9/2012 12:43:53 PM   
WIF_Killzone

 

Posts: 277
Joined: 4/30/2009
Status: offline 		The german soldiers were the best due to their army's doctrine, training and leadership (squad level), and they had a good balance of fanatisim even with the regular army soldiers that made them tanacious but not blindly stupid in the face of a lost cause (except later in the war due to other factors...). In other words they fought the smartest but were less determined than the average russian or japanese soldier, however their doctrine and training still has them come out ahead when everything is taken into account, in my book anyway.

When fanatisism or tenacity or just plane toughness is used to judge (different words for different armies but perhaps their resistance to being "Routed" is right), here's where I see some of them (bound to piss off some people :)
1. Japan
2. Russia
3. German (maybe forth place if not for the later war)
4. CW Canadian, New Z, Australians (maybe 3rd place)
5. CW British
6. French
7. US
8. Italy

The Avalon Hill board game Squad Leader does a very good job of classifying the different types of squads in various categories, both for the elite and base units.

(in reply to tigercub)
Post #: 32
RE: OT - best soldiers in WWII - 9/9/2012 4:27:21 PM   
Beryl


Posts: 44
Joined: 6/1/2008
From: France
Status: offline 		IMHO one should distinct Free French from French

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Post #: 33
RE: OT - best soldiers in WWII - 9/9/2012 4:53:45 PM   
michaelbaldur


Posts: 4774
Joined: 4/6/2007
From: denmark
Status: offline

my thread.

ill decide. the Danish made the best soldiers ..

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I work hard, not smart.

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Post #: 34
RE: OT - best soldiers in WWII - 9/11/2012 10:46:34 AM   
tigercub


Posts: 2004
Joined: 2/3/2003
From: brisbane oz
Status: offline 		When fanatisism or tenacity i think your right on the money...with that list would not change anything but perhapps swapping the US for the free french because of there fighting in the pacfic islands in late 1944.

< Message edited by tigercub -- 9/11/2012 10:49:08 AM >

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Post #: 35
RE: OT - best soldiers in WWII - 9/13/2012 2:09:20 PM   
Neilster


Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SirWhiskers

Some of us are old enough to remember the Ballantine magazines History of the Second World War, published over 30 years ago. Unfortunately I no longer have them, so I can't quote directly, but here are some of the comments I remember from one article comparing the various armies.

Germans. Hands down the best due to superior leadership at all levels (except grand strategic). Their flexibility in combat was amazing - how many other armies could pull together a hodgepodge of units to repel major attacks, not once but many times?

Russians. The most tenacious, especially on defense.

Italians. Most underrated, but only when they had good leadership, which was extremely rare.

American. The first to run away in a firefight, but also the first to rally and come back swinging. Probably the least disciplined of the major powers.

British. Very rigid doctrine. Too often the soldiers were better than their leaders, especially in the higher ranks.

That sounds like "Guns Tanks Men" I've got it. Great series and apart from a lot of the Russian stuff which was badly politically influenced, the analysis really holds up.

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to SirWhiskers)
Post #: 36
RE: OT - best soldiers in WWII - 9/20/2012 3:19:18 PM   
SLAAKMAN


Posts: 2725
Joined: 7/24/2002
Status: offline 		Best soldiers in WWII were the ones left alive.


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Germany's unforgivable crime before the Second World War was her attempt to extricate her economy from the world's trading system and to create her own exchange mechanism which would deny world finance its opportunity to profit.
— Winston Churchill

(in reply to Neilster)
Post #: 37
RE: OT - best soldiers in WWII - 9/20/2012 3:37:20 PM   
michaelbaldur


Posts: 4774
Joined: 4/6/2007
From: denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SLAAKMAN

Best soldiers in WWII were the ones left alive.



so you say that the best soldiers were the ones that surrendered

or the deserters

_____________________________

the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com

(in reply to SLAAKMAN)
Post #: 38
RE: OT - best soldiers in WWII - 9/20/2012 8:06:16 PM   
LiquidSky


Posts: 2811
Joined: 6/24/2008
Status: offline

I had a similar (but funnier) argument with a friend of mine a few years back.

I claimed that the Germans must have had a terrible army...

The reason being, that it is easy for any untrained civilian, even a 16 year old to do better in a wargame with the Germans then they did historically. If it is hard to replicate the success of a nation (like say, the Russians in WiF) then they must have been very good.


Note that this doesnt necessarily apply to one game, but seems consistant across several different ones.


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Post #: 39
RE: OT - best soldiers in WWII - 9/22/2012 1:00:08 AM   
SLAAKMAN


Posts: 2725
Joined: 7/24/2002
Status: offline
quote:

so you say that the best soldiers were the ones that surrendered

or the deserters

Of course! Forget surrender. Thats also a form of slow suicide. Desertion or even draft evasion shouldve been the practice of every army on earth. Would you want to be a Japanese infantryman on Guadalcanal aka "The Island of Death"?? "Oh suuuure General I'll Banzai charge into the machine gun nests, get mortally wounded & let the spiders & multitudes of other ghastly tropical predators eat me alive while I bleed to death for days in the bush".....Duh.


_____________________________

Germany's unforgivable crime before the Second World War was her attempt to extricate her economy from the world's trading system and to create her own exchange mechanism which would deny world finance its opportunity to profit.
— Winston Churchill

(in reply to LiquidSky)
Post #: 40
RE: OT - best soldiers in WWII - 9/22/2012 3:40:21 AM   
borner


Posts: 1485
Joined: 3/20/2005
From: Houston TX
Status: offline 		From the standpoint of being willing to die instead of surrender I think the individual IJA private needs consideration in that respect, Followed by the Russians and then Germans. Italy gets a bad rap, but if they had decent equipment I think the world would have been very impressed. I do not care how good you are, after you get your butts kicked several times in a row, the fighting quality goes down fast.
At the squad level, it has to be the German army. The NCO's were just outstanding.
If you are talking "minor" nations, you have to look at the Fins. I do not care if the Russians did not have a clue on how to fight, it took a lot to stand up to that kind of numbers for as long as they did.
The Australian troops seemed to have carried over a lot of the attitude from WWI, and especially in the desert were second to no one one.
The average US GI was good, well trained and fought well, but were so used to having overwhelming airpower/artillery that is is hard to judge them man for man
Overall I give the edge to the Germans just because they had so many more men than Australia

< Message edited by borner -- 9/26/2012 4:00:07 AM >

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 41
RE: OT - best soldiers in WWII - 1/6/2013 4:45:15 AM   
DasHoff


Posts: 109
Joined: 8/11/2009
Status: offline 		Australia. AIF were all highly motivated volunteers who had to satisfy strict entrance requirements. Australia itself was never really in danger and most soldiers understood this; they volunteered for the adventure, for the chance to test their mettle, and most of all because they had a tremendous reputation to live up to: their forefathers in 1st AIF in WW1, who by 1918 were without a doubt the best troops on the field on either side. They also had probably the hardest and most thorough training of any troops in the war; they trained from the day they joined the army to the day before their first battle, and after every battle they'd be out on exercise excitedly going over what they'd learnt. It was a bit of a sport really, and they were obsessed with being the best.

Take the Australian 6th Division for example, the very first division aus formed (1939) to send overseas. There were conflicting signals from the Government as to whether they'd be going overseas or not, or maybe the militia divs would be overhauled as volunteers and sent instead, so when recruiting opened up many guys, even in the militia, wouldn't join simply because they thought the div wouldnt be sent anywhere exciting. On top of that, recruiters used any excuse they could to deny men entry. This all led to a unit made up of only the keenest, most adventurous type. It also had many highly experienced men (especially officers) who had fought in WW1 (they all lied about that because one of the many ways to be disqualified was to have fought in the last war), and when it was finally ready to go into action (after almost a year of training) it was straight off the bat a crack offensive force to say the least. In fact they soon found the div had enough high quality officer material for 5 divisions, let alone one. on the ever of their first battle, the battle of bardia, the mood was excited but also quite tense; they weren't nervous because they were attacking frontally a fortress with at least twice their men, more guns and more tanks; they were nervous because they had a legacy to live up to, the world was watching them (or at least the country) and they were scared of falling short. These guys actually looked down their noses at other AIF divisions and regarded them as pussies because they didn't sign straight up in '39. reinforcements to the 6th were treated in a similar way

then UK wasted them of course by throwing them into futile campaigns without support like Greece, where many ended up as POWs. lol

ignoring the above, Australians were the best close quarter fighters by a considerable margin; that is beyond dispute

(in reply to borner)
Post #: 42
RE: OT - best soldiers in WWII - 1/6/2013 10:05:51 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DasHoff

.....Australians were the best close quarter fighters by a considerable margin; that is beyond dispute
warspite1

No it isn't.

As good as many Australians were, what evidence can you possibly have to support that "matter-of-fact" statement?

You are entitled to your opinion, but please do not present opinions as facts - it does not make them any more true.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to DasHoff)
Post #: 43
RE: OT - best soldiers in WWII - 1/6/2013 6:15:57 PM   
Jimm


Posts: 607
Joined: 7/27/2006
From: York, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: DasHoff

.....Australians were the best close quarter fighters by a considerable margin; that is beyond dispute
warspite1

No it isn't.

As good as many Australians were, what evidence can you possibly have to support that "matter-of-fact" statement?

You are entitled to your opinion, but please do not present opinions as facts - it does not make them any more true.


I seem to think that Rommel rated the New Zealanders as the best of the CW in North Africa...

(steps back, ducks for cover)

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 44
RE: OT - best soldiers in WWII - 1/6/2013 6:41:59 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jimm


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: DasHoff

.....Australians were the best close quarter fighters by a considerable margin; that is beyond dispute
warspite1

No it isn't.

As good as many Australians were, what evidence can you possibly have to support that "matter-of-fact" statement?

You are entitled to your opinion, but please do not present opinions as facts - it does not make them any more true.


I seem to think that Rommel rated the New Zealanders as the best of the CW in North Africa...

(steps back, ducks for cover)

warspite1

I've also read - but cannot find the source - that the New Zealand 2nd Division were Monty's favourite division. Personally, I would rate the Kiwi's the highest of the Allied units

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Post #: 45
RE: OT - best soldiers in WWII - 1/6/2013 9:02:35 PM   
michaelbaldur


Posts: 4774
Joined: 4/6/2007
From: denmark
Status: offline
I think this end in a nothing ..

all countries had good soldiers ...

_____________________________

the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 46
RE: OT - best soldiers in WWII - 1/6/2013 9:53:39 PM   
SLAAKMAN


Posts: 2725
Joined: 7/24/2002
Status: offline 		Rommels famous quote; “Give me American equipment, German Generals and Canadian soldiers, and I will rule the world!” said General Rommel

_____________________________

Germany's unforgivable crime before the Second World War was her attempt to extricate her economy from the world's trading system and to create her own exchange mechanism which would deny world finance its opportunity to profit.
— Winston Churchill

(in reply to michaelbaldur)
Post #: 47
RE: OT - best soldiers in WWII - 1/6/2013 11:02:50 PM   
michaelbaldur


Posts: 4774
Joined: 4/6/2007
From: denmark
Status: offline
to judge a country by its volunteers.

is not really a good way to judge that countries soldiers.

_____________________________

the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com

(in reply to SLAAKMAN)
Post #: 48
RE: OT - best soldiers in WWII - 1/7/2013 12:12:19 PM   
SLAAKMAN


Posts: 2725
Joined: 7/24/2002
Status: offline 		This Italian was the best soldier in WWII
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bjBAez9cm4





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Germany's unforgivable crime before the Second World War was her attempt to extricate her economy from the world's trading system and to create her own exchange mechanism which would deny world finance its opportunity to profit.
— Winston Churchill

(in reply to michaelbaldur)
Post #: 49
RE: OT - best soldiers in WWII - 1/7/2013 12:53:07 PM   
Empire101


Posts: 1950
Joined: 5/20/2008
From: Coruscant
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SLAAKMAN

This Italian was the best soldier in WWII
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bjBAez9cm4






An excellent choice!!!

He was my favourite character in Catch-22.


_____________________________

Our lives may be more boring than those who lived in apocalyptic times,
but being bored is greatly preferable to being prematurely dead because of some ideological fantasy. - Michael Burleigh


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Post #: 50
RE: OT - best soldiers in WWII - 1/9/2013 3:10:39 PM   
micheljq


Posts: 791
Joined: 3/31/2008
From: Quebec
Status: offline 		Him : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Major

Uber canadian soldier, "give me 2 men and I will liberate your town full of german soldiers".

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"Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious" - Oscar Wilde
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Post #: 51
RE: OT - best soldiers in WWII - 1/11/2013 12:11:10 AM   
bo

 

Posts: 4176
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: offline 		This is all guess work people, you really want to find out who the best soldiers were, join me in the COD2 Wing and a Prayer Mod and just try to go up against Pumkin Pete with his STG 44 or Wing Man and his Thompson sub machine gun or the Raven who could do a somersault moving sideways and shoot you in the right eye from 100 yards away or the Basher who earned his nickname from bashing people with the butt of his rifle, I should know because I [Willycube] won the Baby Seal Award, given only to players who were camping and got bashed the most. [I never said it was good award]

Bo

(in reply to michaelbaldur)
Post #: 52
RE: OT - best soldiers in WWII - 1/11/2013 12:20:43 AM   
PeteG662


Posts: 1263
Joined: 6/7/2004
Status: offline 		Ghurkas.....they were tough and scared the bejesus out of the Japanese

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Post #: 53
RE: OT - best soldiers in WWII - 1/11/2013 2:22:13 AM   
SLAAKMAN


Posts: 2725
Joined: 7/24/2002
Status: offline
quote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Major

Uber canadian soldier, "give me 2 men and I will liberate your town full of german soldiers"

Haha fantastic story. I especially like where he held off 2 Chinese divisions with 20 Recondo scouts for 3 days!

quote:

This is all guess work people, you really want to find out who the best soldiers were, join me in the COD2 Wing and a Prayer Mod and just try to go up against Pumkin Pete with his STG 44 or Wing Man and his Thompson sub machine gun or the Raven who could do a somersault moving sideways and shoot you in the right eye from 100 yards away or the Basher who earned his nickname from bashing people with the butt of his rifle, I should know because I [Willycube] won the Baby Seal Award, given only to players who were camping and got bashed the most. [I never said it was good award]
Bo

OH YEAH?? YOU THINK YOURE BAD DO YA?! WELL LETS SEE HOW BAD YOUR TEAM IS WHEN MY BOYS THROW ONE OF THESE AT YOU!;






Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Germany's unforgivable crime before the Second World War was her attempt to extricate her economy from the world's trading system and to create her own exchange mechanism which would deny world finance its opportunity to profit.
— Winston Churchill

(in reply to PeteG662)
Post #: 54
RE: OT - best soldiers in WWII - 1/11/2013 2:44:05 AM   
bo

 

Posts: 4176
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: offline 		Damn Slaakman, why do I get the feeling that you would kill an ant with a sledge hammer. You would most likely attack Denmark with 8 Panzer divisions or probably corps just to make sure. Not nice!

Bo

(in reply to tigercub)
Post #: 55
RE: OT - best soldiers in WWII - 1/11/2013 10:55:12 PM   
SLAAKMAN


Posts: 2725
Joined: 7/24/2002
Status: offline
quote:

Damn Slaakman, why do I get the feeling that you would kill an ant with a sledge hammer. You would most likely attack Denmark with 8 Panzer divisions or probably corps just to make sure. Not nice!

Bo

(Actually my prefered methode is seduction of the Queen);





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Germany's unforgivable crime before the Second World War was her attempt to extricate her economy from the world's trading system and to create her own exchange mechanism which would deny world finance its opportunity to profit.
— Winston Churchill

(in reply to bo)
Post #: 56
RE: OT - best soldiers in WWII - 1/11/2013 11:06:05 PM   
michaelbaldur


Posts: 4774
Joined: 4/6/2007
From: denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SLAAKMAN

quote:

Damn Slaakman, why do I get the feeling that you would kill an ant with a sledge hammer. You would most likely attack Denmark with 8 Panzer divisions or probably corps just to make sure. Not nice!

Bo

(Actually my prefered methode is seduction of the Queen);






that is clearly not the queen .. that the crown princess ..

as a royalist. im offended by that

_____________________________

the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com

(in reply to SLAAKMAN)
Post #: 57
RE: OT - best soldiers in WWII - 1/12/2013 2:04:07 AM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		She's Tasmanian, She'd probably give a swift kick in the ..........................................

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Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

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Post #: 58
RE: OT - best soldiers in WWII - 1/12/2013 3:34:19 AM   
Neilster


Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline 		I went to university with her. Lovely girl...very enthusiastic

Cheers, Neilster

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Post #: 59
RE: OT - best soldiers in WWII - 1/12/2013 8:26:03 PM   
SLAAKMAN


Posts: 2725
Joined: 7/24/2002
Status: offline
quote:

that is clearly not the queen .. that the crown princess ..
as a royalist. im offended by that

SILLY BOOB. SHE IS ONE OF MY QUEENS, ERGO SHE IS A QUEEN! NOW GIMME HER PHONE #!

quote:

I went to university with her. Lovely girl...very enthusiastic
Cheers, Neilster

So Nielster Ol' Buddy, Ol Pal, when do we party? I feel the need to edify destiny.


_____________________________

Germany's unforgivable crime before the Second World War was her attempt to extricate her economy from the world's trading system and to create her own exchange mechanism which would deny world finance its opportunity to profit.
— Winston Churchill

(in reply to Neilster)
Post #: 60
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