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TOE Details - 1/2/2013 12:27:39 PM

morvael

Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
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I have compiled a detailed list of every TOE in WitE. Data is based on WitE 1.11.02 and available in .txt format (split by country and toe class).

Sample entry:

[389] 43b SS Panzergrenadier Division -> [490] 43e SS Panzergrenadier Division
SS Elite Mechanized Combat Division, 42/11 - 43/06
Build cost: 10292 armaments + 5203 supplies (~7261 supplies)
 Needs           Sup Fuel Ammo  Veh
+Motorized       177  443 1097 2615
 Non-Motorized   177  443 1097 2615
Support: 551/839 (65.67%)

 135 Motorized Rifle Squad (+) (Motor-Inf Squad)
  36 Motorcycle Squad
  27 Panzer Grenadier Squad 41 (Mech-Inf Squad) [+.]
   9 Panzer Pioneer Squad 39 (Mech-Engr Squad) [..]
  30 Pioneer Squad 39 (Engineer Squad)
  38 81mm Mortar
  26 75mm Infantry Gun
   8 150mm Infantry Gun (Heavy Infantry Gun)
  12 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun)
  33 75mm Anti-tank Gun Pak40 (AT Gun)
   6 105mm Field Gun (Heavy Artillery)
  24 105mm Howitzer (Artillery) +++UUUUU
  12 150mm Howitzer (Artillery) +++UUUUU
  12 Wespe (SP Artillery) ...+++++ [..]
   6 Hummel (Heavy SP Artillery) ...+++++ [..]
  16 SdKfz-7/1 SP Flak (Medium SP Flak) [+1]
  12 88mm Anti-aircraft Gun (Medium Flak/AT)
  37 SdKfz-10/4 SP Flak UUUUUUUU
  18 SdKfz-7/2 SP Flak (Medium SP Flak)
   6 SdKfz-251/2 Mortar Carrier (HT Mortar) [+.]
  12 SdKfz-251/1 MG Carrier (HT MG) [+.]
  18 SdKfz-222B Armored Car (Light Armored Car) [DD]
  12 Panzerjaeger 38 (Lt Tank Destroyer) UUUUUuuu [+1]
  21 Stug IIIg (Assault Gun) D+++++++ [d.]
  17 Panzer IIf (Light Tank) ........ [..]
  51 Panzer IIIm (Medium Tank) +++111UU [..]
  34 Panzer IVg (Medium Tank) UUUUUuuu [..]
  14 Tiger (Heavy Tank) [..]
  74 7.92mm MG42 Machine Gun (Machinegun) [DD]
  21 28mm Anti-tank Gun (Light AT Gun) [.+]
  63 7.92mm Anti-tank Rifle (Infantry-AT) ++......
 551 Support

16820 men, 192 guns, 274 AFV, CV 31.13 (23.95 @ 90)

Numbers in braces on first line are IDs. Element types are shown next to element name, unless their name is contained in element name.

If there are symbols next to element name (type) then they represent element availability during entire "lifetime" of TOE (one character per month). When there are no symbols it means that the element is available for the entire "lifetime" of TOE (all "+"). Otherwise (from best to worst):
+ - original element is available in that month
U - direct element upgrade is available in that month
u - indirect (upgrade of upgrade etc.) element upgrade is available in that month
D - direct element downgrade is available in that month
d - indirect (downgrade of downgrade etc.) element downgrade is available in that month
1 to 9 - number of alternative elements (of the same type, but not in upgrade/downgrade path) available in that month
. - nothing is available in that month (no upgrade/downgrade/alternative)

Alternatives are elements of the same country and type. Upgrades/downgrades count only if they are alternatives as well (of the same country and type), though entire chain is checked.

If there are symbols in square brackets then they represent the availability of the original element or it's upgrades/downgrades/alternatives in each direct TOE downgrade. This information is not shown if there are no TOE downgrades (obviously) or when all TOE downgrades have the original element (all "+"). Otherwise (from best to worst):
+ - original element is used in TOE downgrade in at least one slot
U - direct element upgrade is used in TOE downgrade in at least one slot
u - indirect (upgrade of upgrade etc.) element upgrade is used in TOE downgrade in at least one slot
D - direct element downgrade is used in TOE downgrade in at least one slot
d - indirect (downgrade of downgrade etc.) element downgrade is used in TOE downgrade in at least one slot
1 to 9 - number of alternative elements (of the same type, but not in upgrade/downgrade path) used in TOE downgrade
. - nothing is used in TOE downgrade (no upgrade/downgrade/alternative)

To check what other values mean, please check my other TOE thread: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3243486

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by morvael -- 4/21/2018 7:04:13 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: TOE Details - 1/2/2013 4:31:59 PM

amatteucci

Posts: 389
Joined: 5/14/2000
From: ITALY
Status: offline

Thank you.
Very useful!

(in reply to morvael)

Post #: 2

RE: TOE Details - 1/2/2013 8:25:18 PM

morvael

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From: Poland
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If any of you has some ideas how the data could be presented in a better way (I'm not the best one when it comes to GUI or data presentation), I'm open for suggestions.

(in reply to amatteucci)

Post #: 3

RE: TOE Details - 1/4/2013 9:15:57 AM

morvael

Posts: 11762
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From: Poland
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Update.

More info about obsolete and future elements.

quote:

2 SdKfz-221 Armored Car (Light Armored Car) ##--

Expected CV value is now more accurate, as now the morale used is no longer flat 1942 morale, but is taking all special rules (elite, motorized) and year (based on TOE first date) into account:

quote:

16982 men, 200 guns, 0 AFV, CV 18.17 (8.68 @ 75)

You can see that morale here:

quote:

16982 men, 200 guns, 0 AFV, CV 18.17 (8.68 @ 75)

I have also added "Size" information (regiment, brigade, division, corps etc.):

quote:

Infantry Combat Division, 41/06 - 41/11

Last bit of information is whether units using this TOE are usually motorized:

quote:

Needs Sup Fuel Ammo Veh
Motorized 178 191 538 2331
+Non-Motorized 310 19 538 242

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Post #: 4

RE: TOE Details - 1/4/2013 10:14:01 AM

morvael

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Update.

Added elite information and recalculated expected CV:

quote:

SS Non-Elite Cavalry Combat Brigade, 41/06 - 42/03

(in reply to morvael)

Post #: 5

RE: TOE Details - 1/11/2013 4:23:30 PM

morvael

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Updated for full patch 1.6.25.

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Post #: 6

RE: TOE Details - 1/11/2013 4:46:31 PM

morvael

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From: Poland
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I case anyone is interested, I'm attaching comparison of files from 1.6.23+hotfix 1.6.25 and full patch 1.6.25. Quite a number of changes, for good.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 7

RE: TOE Details - 1/12/2013 5:48:35 AM

Cerion

Posts: 101
Joined: 9/16/2009
From: Europe
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Thanks, morvael. Very useful.

(in reply to morvael)

Post #: 8

RE: TOE Details - 3/2/2013 5:40:59 PM

morvael

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From: Poland
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Updated to 1.6.27, but the main difference is not in the data, but in code improvements - several units had badly detected units size (ex. Army Gun Regiment), which affected morale as well. Also in this release are included HQs and Air Bases. I have tried to mimic the supply/fuel/ammo/vehicle results as shown in the editor, please note they are inconsistent with regular (combat & support) units.

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Post #: 9

RE: TOE Details - 4/23/2013 11:34:11 AM

morvael

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Updated to 1.7.06. Changes are minimal though (just for Soviet Tank Division and for some Soviet Tk/Mech Corps due to corrected SU-76 fuel use).

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Post #: 10

RE: TOE Details - 4/26/2013 9:17:18 AM

morvael

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I have upgraded the file to latest version. It is still based on the same 1.7.06 but it shows element availability in much better way. Details in the first post.

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Post #: 11

RE: TOE Details - 4/26/2013 9:40:43 AM

morvael

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I think I will have to do some corrections to this, not to treat upgrades of different type are real upgrades.

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Post #: 12

RE: TOE Details - 4/26/2013 9:46:16 AM

morvael

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From: Poland
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Fixed.

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Post #: 13

RE: TOE Details - 4/26/2013 9:50:44 AM

morvael

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From: Poland
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Fixed once more for elements that end production before 41/06 (or start after 45/09 but that's unlikely).

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Post #: 14

RE: TOE Details - 4/26/2013 11:00:35 AM

morvael

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Upgraded once more, now it is shown if there will be problems upgrading to this element when coming from older TOE:

[340] 43 Infantry Division -> [126] 44 Infantry Division
Infantry Combat Division, 42/11 - 43/08
 Needs           Sup Fuel Ammo  Veh
 Motorized       171  184  511 2241
+Non-Motorized   297   18  511  231
Support: 544/515 (105.63)

 336 Rifle Squad 11++++++++ [.]
   9 Cavalry Squad
  36 Pioneer Squad (Engineer Squad) 11++++++++ [.]
  60 81mm Mortar
  18 75mm Infantry Gun
   6 150mm Infantry Gun (Heavy Infantry Gun)
  18 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) +++3333333
  27 75mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) [.]
  27 105mm Howitzer (Artillery)
   9 150mm Howitzer (Artillery)
  84 50mm Mortar (Light Mortar)
 116 7.92mm Machine Gun (Machinegun)
  84 7.92mm Anti-tank Rifle (Infantry-AT)
 544 Support

16363 men, 165 guns, 0 AFV, CV 18.03 (7.50 @ 70)

[.] means there is one TOE downgrade from this TOE (42 Infantry Division) and that it doesn't contain direct or indirect downgrades of the same class as Rifle Squad, Pioneer Squad and 75mm Anti-tank Gun. It may suggest problems switching to those elements.

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Post #: 15

RE: TOE Details - 5/8/2013 10:13:55 AM

morvael

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Upgraded to 1.7.08 and improved "usage in TOE downgrades" information.

[340] 43 Infantry Division -> [126] 44 Infantry Division
Infantry Combat Division, 42/11 - 43/08
 Needs           Sup Fuel Ammo  Veh
 Motorized       171  184  511 2241
+Non-Motorized   297   18  511  231
Support: 544/515 (105.63)

 336 Rifle Squad DD++++++++ [D]
   9 Cavalry Squad
  36 Pioneer Squad (Engineer Squad) DD++++++++ [D]
  60 81mm Mortar
  18 75mm Infantry Gun
   6 150mm Infantry Gun (Heavy Infantry Gun)
  18 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) +++3333333
  27 75mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) [2]
  27 105mm Howitzer (Artillery)
   9 150mm Howitzer (Artillery)
  84 50mm Mortar (Light Mortar)
 116 7.92mm Machine Gun (Machinegun) [D]
  84 7.92mm Anti-tank Rifle (Infantry-AT)
 544 Support

16363 men, 165 guns, 0 AFV, CV 18.03 (7.50 @ 70)

As you can see comparing with the previous post, the Rifle Squad and Pioneer Squad now have direct downgrades available for the first two months (and also used in TOE downgrade). This is effect of patch 1.7.07. Also, there is more detail concerning 7.92mm Machine Gun - you can now see that direct downgrade is used in TOE downgrade (previously there was no information whether it was a downgrade or original element). 50mm Anti-tank Gun has not changed. It's available only for first 3 months of this TOE lifetime, then there are 3 alternatives available. As for the 75mm Anti-tank Gun, you can see that two alternatives are used in TOE downgrade (these are 37mm Anti-tank Gun and 50mm Anti-tank Gun in [339] 42 Infantry Division). As I understand the swap code, this will result in problems with switching from 37 to 75 mm AT Guns (the slot will not be freed by the 37mm, but it will also not generate any production need for the 75mm, so until it will be reduced to 0 elements there will be no chance to get 75mm into the unit, unless somehow more guns will be found in the pool, for example freed from other units).

< Message edited by morvael -- 5/8/2013 10:14:33 AM >

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Post #: 16

RE: TOE Details - 7/29/2013 10:10:28 AM

morvael

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I have updated the files, this is still based on 1.7.08 but contains unit build costs in armament and supply points.

Build costs are calculated separately for elements using armament points to produce (produced automatically, like rifle squads) and supplies (produced in factories, like tanks). Only buildable elements are included - that is those that have build cost between 1 and 9998, and build limit above 0 if produced in factories.

Non-buildable elements are now properly reported on availability tracks as not available, this is mostly noticeable for old Soviet equipment in 41 TOEs, as well as various Finnish units using captured equipment.

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Post #: 17

RE: TOE Details - 7/29/2013 11:04:13 AM

loki100

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From: Utlima Thule
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thanks for maintaining this, I'm slowly coming to appreciate how invaluable this resource is

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Post #: 18

RE: TOE Details - 7/29/2013 2:31:06 PM

Peltonx

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is it working as far as infantry squads go?

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Beta Tester WitW & WitE

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Post #: 19

RE: TOE Details - 7/29/2013 2:38:36 PM

morvael

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From: Poland
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What do you mean exactly?

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Post #: 20

RE: TOE Details - 1/20/2015 2:47:40 PM

morvael

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Updated to 1.08.02.

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Post #: 21

RE: TOE Details - 1/20/2015 6:30:09 PM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Updated to 1.08.02.

you are seriously wonderful, esp the info on just how much precious supply my artillery fixation is costing

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Post #: 22

RE: TOE Details - 1/20/2015 7:54:58 PM

morvael

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I'm glad you like it. It wasn't updated for a long time and I had to dig deep in the forum bowels to find the thread to resurrect it

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Post #: 23

RE: TOE Details - 9/28/2015 12:04:50 PM

morvael

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Updated to 1.08.05.

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Post #: 24

RE: TOE Details - 9/29/2015 5:27:26 PM

loki100

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From: Utlima Thule
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thank you again

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Post #: 25

RE: TOE Details - 9/29/2015 7:39:19 PM

M60A3TTS

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One thing I noted was the Soviet 42 heavy rocket brigade has 480 delivery systems of 4 tubes firing a 300 mm rocket. That's 1,920 tubes. CV is listed as 5.3

The upgrade 44 heavy rocket brigade has 96 delivery systems of 12 tubes firing a 310 mm rocket. That's 1,152 tubes or 60% of the 42 version. But CV is 1.05 or 20% of the earlier version.

So apparently the CV is tied to the number of delivery systems rather than tubes. For the game system that may make sense but the amount of ordinance being delivered by the 44 version gets undervalued that way.

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Post #: 26

RE: TOE Details - 9/29/2015 8:09:10 PM

morvael

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With default CV settings artillery elements have 0 CV. What gives CV to those units are support squads.
Artillery is not counted in CV, but it kills elements on the battlefield, thus reducing enemy CV for the final calculations.

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Post #: 27

RE: TOE Details - 9/29/2015 8:25:51 PM

M60A3TTS

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So I would have a better chance winning a battle with an 82mm mortar with 1,000 support squads than an 82mm mortar with 1 support squad?

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Post #: 28

RE: TOE Details - 9/29/2015 8:38:25 PM

morvael

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...and better than 1000 mortars with 1 support squad

It doesn't compute for me as well, hence alternate CV modes for those who like to experiment, where artillery has 1 base CV instead of 0 and one with artillery at 1 base CV and supports at 0 base CV. I just can't accept that 20 men without rifles have more boots on the ground than 6 men with rifles and a gun.

This moves balance towards Soviets where their numerous artillery finally has visible impact on unit CV, and weakens Germans with their large logistical component.

< Message edited by morvael -- 9/29/2015 9:39:39 PM >

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Post #: 29

RE: TOE Details - 9/29/2015 8:47:49 PM

morvael

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From: Poland
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I pointed this early in WitW development cycle and the middle ground was chosen - all elements contribute at least 1 base CV (something is better than nothing).

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Post #: 30