Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

This is a funny topic.

The OS Mountians aren't special; they just have more photos. They were very, very hard to walk across. Stipulated. Lots of nice pictures of how hard it was. They had good PR agents. But if someone wants to make a deal of this in the game, if they're honest, they also never, ever let tanks or arty or AA units move through jungle except on gray or yellow roads. Never fight off road, never cross the jungle. OK, maybe, just maybe, if they have a combat engineer unit with them in the hex at all times. Not an engineer unit mind you, but realio trulio combat engineers laying corduroy roads. How many miles of corduroy road can a good combat engineer unit lay in a day? Three miles? When it's not monsoon?

I prefer the Japanese come over the OS Mountians. You can see them coming for a long time.

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Whats the problem with marching a Division across the Owen Stanleys, my only comment is that it has to be in COMBAT status, not MOVE

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AFB is marching through Burma

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ORIGINAL: JeffK

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

This is a funny topic.

The OS Mountians aren't special; they just have more photos. They were very, very hard to walk across. Stipulated. Lots of nice pictures of how hard it was. They had good PR agents. But if someone wants to make a deal of this in the game, if they're honest, they also never, ever let tanks or arty or AA units move through jungle except on gray or yellow roads. Never fight off road, never cross the jungle. OK, maybe, just maybe, if they have a combat engineer unit with them in the hex at all times. Not an engineer unit mind you, but realio trulio combat engineers laying corduroy roads. How many miles of corduroy road can a good combat engineer unit lay in a day? Three miles? When it's not monsoon?

I prefer the Japanese come over the OS Mountians. You can see them coming for a long time.

I assume you havent been there.

No. But I've been in a couple of types of jungle and rainforest, I've been on WWII "invasion islands", and I've climbed mountains. No question then the OSes are perhaps at the top of the list of the worst operational mountains of the war. The Hump was worse, but they didn't walk across. My point is, though, that if the OSes are called out, several other in-game compromises should be as well. A point I understand you got from the below.

But the heavy equipment in a jungle has relevance, but when then get into "All jungle is not the same".
We would need rules for another dozen terrain types.

True. Mangrove swamp is not rainforest is not old growth teak forest is not island palms/vines on volcanic debris. In addition to jungle the game allows rapid movement across rice paddy/dike geographies in Indo-China, which the USA found out was not conductive to armored operations in any big way.

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ORIGINAL: Crackaces

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AFB is marching through Burma

The AFB's did do this .. a la Operation Extended Captial. The problem was that Mountbatten's staff was convinced it was impossible until the IJ did it and seiged Imphal ..

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ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
NoPac:  Far to the west, a USN CL/DD force is nearing the Kuriles with no detection reported.  The plan is to try to catch some merchants at Sikhalin Island.  The Allies will bombard Umnak again tonight. 

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ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

The CL/DD force departed Pearl Harbor about four days ago, followed by a replenishment TF.  But there are other replenishment TFs south of Kodiak.  Besides that, I think the ships have enough fuel to make it back to Kodiak without replenishing.

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ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

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ORIGINAL: Crackaces

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AFB is marching through Burma

The AFB's did do this .. a la Operation Extended Captial. The problem was that Mountbatten's staff was convinced it was impossible until the IJ did it and seiged Imphal ..

Yes and no. Extended Capital was very late against an exhausted, undersupplied, cut-off Japanese force. It was conducted on good roads for the most part by large, late-war armored divisions, and it went down roads taking cites with an objective of Rangoon, not across dense jungle as the game allows for tanks. The game represents armor-on-roads very well IMO for the scale. Taking armor and especialy large gun tubes through jungle is too easy in the game. But it's the same for both sides.

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ORIGINAL: JeffK
Quest for michaelm, You have a full strength Division in (for example) Pt Moresby. Jungle hexes are impassable to this force. But a button enables you to create a light infantry unit which drops heavy weapons (keeps up to 3" Mortar for example), equipment and support and a HQ unit with the rest of the equiment. You get your unit capable of Jungle warfare, but hasnt a lot of puch and is not well supported and if you want your Support you ship or fly it to the Infantry component.

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ORIGINAL: AcePylut

I can only believe that people are aware of the problems in the Owen Stanley's because of real history. I wonder how many other hexes in the WITP map are "realistically impossible to cross, but possible in the game" hexes that we aren't aware of because there was no WW2 history there. The Owen Stanleys sets off alarms in folks, but I'd bet there are many other hexes that are equally impossible to 'support an army' that don't set off alarms, that would, if we were aware of them.

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ORIGINAL: JeffK

But can you program it

Maybe for a later edition.

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So where is this justification that either location should only be captured from the sea?

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ORIGINAL: Alfred

1. There is no tunnel under the Owen Stanleys. I have no idea where this fantasy that there is such a thing first arose. It did not arise in GreyJoy's game v rader.

2. Movement rates across the Owen Stanleys, ie between Port Moresby and Buna, are exactly the same as anywhere else on the map where the same type of terrain is found. Units do not cross as if they were traversing a major road. Again no idea where this fantasy has come from.

3. If the crossing of the Owen Stanleys were in fact at the rate of a major road, that would be a definite bug to be fixed by michaelm. No other action, such as forcing players to move in combat mode, or restrictions on units able to cross, would be appropriate.

4. Andy Mac has already, from the very beginning of AE's life, had a jungle TOE which Commonwealth units change over to. If someone wants to argue that Andy Mac got it wrong, I'm all ears but I very much doubt that they will be able to successfully prosecute that argument.

5. Is the argument that a non historical, special "light jungle" TOE template required? Putting aside the basic premise that Andy Mac got it wrong, all TOE templates are based on the historical unit structures. I don't see the need, nor the wisdom in the overall context of the game, in introducing a "fantasy" TOE template which is optional at the player's discretion. No other TOE is an optional detour from the preset path.

6. The terrain between Port Moresby and Buna did not preclude the historical movement of some artillery tubes throughout its entire length. If the Japanese could do it, why can't the player?

7. I find it amazing that anyone is comfortable with the idea of forcing their opponent, whether it be the Japanese re Port Moresby or the Allies re Buna, to undertake only a sea borne invasion of those locations. The Own Stanleys were historically crossed in both directions by both sides. It is not a one way thoroughfare. The Japanese came very close to Port Moresby and if there had been no simultaneous Guadalcanal campaign which severely impacted on the limited Japanese logistical capabilities, who is to say they would not have captured Port Moresby overland. The Allies definitely captured Buna with an overland campaign. So where is this justification that either location should only be captured from the sea?

Alfred

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ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

WitP AE: We are entering my favorite part of the game.  Japan is mighty and almost unstoppable at any point of its choosing; but the Allies are beginning to grow, can do some things, and can enjoy laying the foundation for things to come.  I find the logistics aspect of the game extremely satisfying.  (Why I enjoy that but despise pilot training I can't tell you.)  What an immensely satisfying game!

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ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

If malaria, scrub typhus, dengue, jungle rot and other tropical diseases were modeled well in the game (and not capped as they are), large units would be made combat ineffective in short order traversing malarial jungles. Unit effectiveness would be less than 20% after prolonged slogs and fighting through some of this terrain with these disease handicaps.

Instead, fatigue and malarial effects are capped out by code. This diminishes (significantly) the realism associated with conducting such a campaign in this fashion. I'm less concerned about whether the Owen Stanleys are modeled differently than other mountain ranges than about the way the jungle all around is modeled insufficiently.

Sure, units could traverse the Owen Stanleys across the Kokoda track both ways. Such movement sapped the hell out of them. Even worse were some of the infantry actions around Gilli Gilli / Milne Bay. The virulent malaria around there was particularly awful, rendering units combat ineffective in comparatively short order.

Model the hell that was jungle fighting, equippping and feeding whole divisions through untrackable malarial fens and tropical diseases and then I'll say that the game's 'got it right'. Until then, some extraordinary self-imposition of rules is needed if one wants to track reality.

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ORIGINAL: witpqs

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ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

If malaria, scrub typhus, dengue, jungle rot and other tropical diseases were modeled well in the game (and not capped as they are), large units would be made combat ineffective in short order traversing malarial jungles. Unit effectiveness would be less than 20% after prolonged slogs and fighting through some of this terrain with these disease handicaps.

Instead, fatigue and malarial effects are capped out by code. This diminishes (significantly) the realism associated with conducting such a campaign in this fashion. I'm less concerned about whether the Owen Stanleys are modeled differently than other mountain ranges than about the way the jungle all around is modeled insufficiently.

Sure, units could traverse the Owen Stanleys across the Kokoda track both ways. Such movement sapped the hell out of them. Even worse were some of the infantry actions around Gilli Gilli / Milne Bay. The virulent malaria around there was particularly awful, rendering units combat ineffective in comparatively short order.

Model the hell that was jungle fighting, equippping and feeding whole divisions through untrackable malarial fens and tropical diseases and then I'll say that the game's 'got it right'. Until then, some extraordinary self-imposition of rules is needed if one wants to track reality.

You sound like a tropical disease fanboy!

Seriously, I agree BUT - road(major/minor) and rail building would have to be modeled to go along with that.

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6. The terrain between Port Moresby and Buna did not preclude the historical movement of some artillery tubes throughout its entire length. If the Japanese could do it, why can't the player?

7. I find it amazing that anyone is comfortable with the idea of forcing their opponent, whether it be the Japanese re Port Moresby or the Allies re Buna, to undertake only a sea borne invasion of those locations. The Own Stanleys were historically crossed in both directions by both sides. It is not a one way thoroughfare. The Japanese came very close to Port Moresby and if there had been no simultaneous Guadalcanal campaign which severely impacted on the limited Japanese logistical capabilities, who is to say they would not have captured Port Moresby overland. The Allies definitely captured Buna with an overland campaign. So where is this justification that either location should only be captured from the sea?