Walloc
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Joined: 10/30/2006
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This is work in progress and not complete yet, but comments most welcome. Do ppl understand it, am i too inclusive and so on?
Walloc's russian factory evac guide based on rules as is per 1.06.13
Comments are welcome. Pointing out errors, improving my horrendous formulation "abilities", other ways of doing it, or discussion on the stuff that is up for debate.
1. Tank/AFV/Combat vehicles/Aircrafts
Things u need to know. When you evac a factory of this type you remove any factors left behind. So if u evac 1 point of a 7 point LA-5 factory the remaining 6 is removed. They arent and in most cases not necesarrily lost for ever. When a factory of this type is fully repaired it will expand up too its build up limit as given for that factory, at the given point in time. How ever you will naturally lose production overall. While there are a chance for producing while damage, ill come back to that later, it will be at a lower level, its only a chance and the possibilty of the factory could have expanded further if not evaced is a factor too.
When you evac a factory in of any type the factory will be damaged. What determains by how much is depending on 2 factors. How large the factory is when evaced and how large a portion of the factory that is evaced. If u evac a 100% of factory's current capacity it will be 50% damaged. If u evaced not that its possible 0% it will be 100% damaged. The level of damage in beetween is pretty liniar. So in case of the above 7 point LA-5, if u evac 4(3 over, 3 under) it will be at 72% damage about just at half inbetween 50 and 100%.
Now if the factory had been 24 point large and to evac 4 points the damage to the evaced factory is 92% because 4 out of 26 is such a low % of over all factory. Math is 4/26*100 ~ 15%. 15% of the 50 difference between 50 and 100 ~ 7.5 rounded off to the 8%. 100%-8% = 92%.
A factory of this type repairs with a fixed 3% per turn. When a factory is at below 50% damage it has a chance of producing.
The closer to 0% damage the greater the chance. Math is again liniar so at 25% damage it will have 50% chance of producing that turn.
This means that a factory at 72% damaged will take 24 turns to fully repair and then starting to expand towards the build limit generally at 1 per turn. 8 turns until the possibility of production. 92% would take 31 turns before fully repaired and 14 turns until it can possibly start to produce.
What does that mean. It means at times, certinaly not always, there are a point in evacing factories as early as possible. If u wait the factory will be larger so even of u evac the same points as earlier on teh factory will be more damaged. Taking longer time before it give a chance of production and also before its fully repaired and are able to expand.
Or u will later on will have to evac a larger portion of the factory = more RR cap to ensure the same repair time.
Enough of that. IMO, there are 7 factories of this type that are imperitive that is evaced. I dont care, if u have to evac 1 point of them, dont ever lose them! If a german is within MPs of being able to ZoC it out, preventing evac, then evac the factory. Ofc this should be taken with a grain of salt and common sense. im not saying its the best way to do the evac. Just saying these factories are essential for ur long time warfaring abilties. So just evac 1 point if that is what is possible, if threatned, just do it!
Its the KV factory in Leningrad, the 4 IL2 factories(2 in moscow, 2 in Voronez, the LI2(transport) factory at Khimki near Moscow and the Pe 2R near Moscow
Why. KV is non essential to the russian war efford, but that factory is 50% of ur potential IS tank production. Russian got preciously few things that can kill panthers and tigers in the later part of the war and here is 50% of ur tank production of that.
IL2s this is the primary ground attack aircraft u will have. Im a big believer in streamlining production so i prefere to have as few types of aircraft doing 1 job. This aircraft gives u the ability and does it well enough. Even if u dont care for that sorta thing and want variation when looking at the production number this aircraft will be by far the most used aircraft u will have. Its simply a question of numbers.
LI2. Only real transport aircraft with any range u have until u get the C-47s in feb 43. Will help on the potential of airdrops and eliviates the use of heavy bombers for partisan supply drops.
PE-2R factory at Moscow. U get preciously few new recon aircrafts with any kinds a legs as russian. This is 50% of em and u will need em!
Now to the optimized part deal with each and every factory that is in danger.
Leningrad
YAK 6, Evac 1 point, turn 3-5. You dont get many transport aircraft so i find i worthy to evac, tho its debateble if its worth it. Evac only 1 cuz it enters production 12/42 giving plenty a time to fully repair and fully expand with only 1 evaced.
KV-1 M1941 Evac 1 point, turn 3-5. Debateble if u have the RR cap to spare there are merits in doing more. Up too around 15 has merit. I prefere to save the RR cap tho. U dont have many uses for the KV-1. While an excellent tank it self there are so few spots in ToE that they dont have any real effect and the other factory u have should produce enough until this factory is repaired and expanded. Yes there might be a shortage in around late 41 early 42 but thats it after that u should see any short fall. Since this factory eventually converts to 50% of late game IS tanks its a must to get out.
BA 10. Leave! Stops producion 9/41 and doesnt upgrade to any thing else. Waste of RR cap to evac, and if so chance are u gona lose the production cuz of damaged state.
T-50 Evac 1 point, turn 3-5. In it self nothign worth while, but it upgrades to T-34/42 7/42. Evacing just 1 point give time to fully repair(33 turns, expand 7 = 40 turns well before 7/42.
Kharkov
T-34 Factory. Not the most importand as u sorta have enough but non less i prefere to evac it. 15 points should be doable early(turn 5-8) on and gives ok time to repair and expand to when T-34/M42 become operationally. Note here that he T-34/M41 has a build limit of 75, M42 62. This means that there is limited idea in fully evacing it cuz it wil be fully reparied and expanded just about the time that it goes from 75 to 62, making the expansion of those 13 turns not worth much since they are removed any how. Again one of those i'd evac 1 if germans are within Mp to zoc/take city. 1 tho it will take long to repair and expand its better than nothing.
Su 2 factory. Leave! Stops production 12/1941, doesnt upgrade. Leave it.
Taganrog
LaGG-3 Leave. Stops production in 7/42 doesnt upgrade. U get better fighter aircrafts and enough of em so i dont think this one is worth the cap rail. If u wana evac them do all. Else they wont have time to repair and expand until production stops.
LaGG-3 29 series evac 1 point turn 8-12 or before. Doesnt start to produce until 8/42 and evacing one at that time gives time to fully repair and expand or near fully expand at time of production
As per Flaviusx and M60A3TTS. Question if its worth evacing. From a RR cap point of view evacing 1 point is next to nothing(1560 IIRC) so it isnt really that, that stops the evac. So we down to a pure Hi/supply issue vs having a pool of aircrafts u might not use. More on the possible supply problems later on. That said ill leave it for now for another reason. There was a rumor(from Denniss) a few months ago that in the next database patch the LaGG-3 29/66 series was gona get a boost in stats. I wouldnt mind seeing those for a re evaluation before making a "final" judgement.
Voronezh
IL2 *2. Evac 4 points each on turn 3/4.. Debateble choice to use rail cap on this so early. My point of doing it this early is that they havent expanded much yet which means the time before fully repaired and start to expand will be around start of 42 where u will start to be able to use them. Doing it later with same evac amount and they will be damaged more postponing the time until its fully repaired and will expand. Limiting production in 42. Or they RR used to get larger parts out is a hinderance later on. What ever u do get 1 of each out no matter what.
Flaviusx Notes: Personally, I don't bother evacuating anything from Voronezh until around turn 10. Yes, this will be somewhat inefficient from a production standpoint, but I'm more interested in structuring my evacuation for denial of targets, and that means stuff that far in the rear is going to have to wait. It's more important to get things out of immediate danger first. I'm working on Poltava and Kharkov on turn 3-4. operational requirements > production efficiencies in this case.
I dont disagree if that is what is needed, just never found it to be needed and u can overall save RR cap by doing it early. Spend 40k for all 4 facs, now instead of possibly 2-3 times as much later.
IL 10, evac 1 point before city falls. Doesnt get into production until 45 so will have more than enough to time to repair and fully expand when evacing only 1. Not the most importand factory to get out since it starts to produce so late in the war that it has very limited effect.
Moscow Area
LI-2, evac as much as possible when get spare RR cap. Only long legged transport aircraft before the C-47. Has many uses so i like to get it fully out when ever i get free RR cap. As it will so soon will expand to its 9 build limit that it doesnt pay to evac early. Its one of the evac just 1 if threatned candidates.
LI-2VP, dont evac or move 1 point to where it will be captured. An ok aircraft with nice payload and range but its very limited production and my liking of streamlining i dont use this aircraft. If of the same opinion and assuming u dont find it gamey its a candidate to be moved forward to save a bit of supply that is used in building it. From now on known as move stuff to Flav's front yard. All those bits and byts will make a beautifull piece of art some day!
IL2 *2 evac 4 each points turn 3/4. Debateble. Yes u can wait with these. They arent in imidiate danger, but logic is same as descriped for IL2s at Voronezh. Its one of the evac just 1 if threatned candidates. Get em out!
IL10, evac 1 point before city falls. Doesnt get into production until 45 so will have more than enough to time to repair and fully expand when evacing only 1. Not the most importand factory to get out since it starts to produce so late in the war that it has very limited effect.
IL-4 evac fully before city falls/during mud. IL-4 is the heavy bomber of choice, periode. This is 1/3 of the production. Importand to get out. One of those that are evac just 1 candidates if threatned. It is an aircraft u will use. Is next on my list after the 7 mentioned, but not making the list cuz u do produce them in numbers in safer places.
Pe-2R evac fully at first possible oppertunity. Usually in the turn 10-14 span This is 50% of ur long legged recon planes, get it out! Costs around 11k to get out so its one of those cases if i have 11k RR cap left after doing other stuff any where in turn 5-10 i will take it out over a single arm or what ever ppl might do. 100% a 1 point evac candidate if threatned.
MIG-3 *2 Leave. Stops production 12/41 doesnt upgrade. While an importand figther aircraft early on, the stop date doesnt justify using rail cap or the lost production actually evacing it.
YAK-7A evac a few early if spare RR cap or wait until mud and evac all/just 1 if needed. Starts producing at 12/41 which gives several options. U have some time to repair and possibily expand or doing soon after enter production if u move turn 3-4-5 early on if u have the spare RR cap. Not losing any produciton or much. If not wait until mud assuming city doesnt fall before and get them out there. A evac just 1 candidate as it continuesly upgrades during the war and is an fine aircraft.
U-2VS Leave, possibly move to be captured candiadate Opinions on this plane/series differ. Some have used it for night attacks for extra losses and it all helps. Others are on the firm this is piece of utter crap all it does it use supply to be made. Using it just takes resources as in supply/vehicles/manpower on airbases that could be put to much better use. In that view its a canditate for moved forward to be captured, if u dont consider that gamey. Personally im on the its piece of crap bandwagon. How ever u view it it should really be on the buttom of ur totempole evac wise.
T-40 M41 evac full or near before city falls/mud/Snow/Blizzard. Upgrades to T-60 and again to Su 76 serie. It provides a portion of ur CV through out the war tho especially in 42 as it T 60 makes up nice part of the ToE aka CV of ur tank force. Unfortunatly the CV it gives, more or less only last until they spot an enemy that just have an inkling of a AT gun. Which means u need huge numbers made. So it is a 1 evac candidate if threatned but overall of stuff in Moscow area its down on the list.
Pe-2 evac what u can before city falls/mud/Snow/Blizzard, but Pe-2 are nice aircrafts that will team well with ur IL-2s This factory is 50% of the production, so it makes it a 1 point evac candidate if threatned.
Pe-3 evac 1 each point turn 7-8-9 The low production numbers doesnt make it worth much IMO, but it upgrades to Pe-3bis in april 42(turn 42) and well of the prepare for any thing kinda type and u dont get that many night figthers. So its taken out as a precautionary meassure. If taken out with 1 point in the time periode it gives it will have time to repair and expand to the max 5 before upgrades to P-3bis. Math is 1 out = 90% damage= 30 turns of repair and 4 turns to expand to 5. If wait u take it out later u will need to take out 2 or 3 depending on date. It has a very short production run of only 4 months so if u want this plane it needs to be at full production come april 42. The 4 months production wont take out that much supply in making any how. It stops producing and no supply use after 8/42.
Thats the factories those in immediate danger.
Then a discussion about merits of using spare rail cap during the blizzard and spring 42 periode to evac factories futher back.
There are factories not mentioned in the immediate danger section, but which stil arel fairly close to the front, for example like Yaroslav and Tambov. Those should defernately be evaced when u spare RR cap come some time in the blizzard periode. Goes for both the tank/aircraft type factories and arms/HI/vehicle type.
My assumption is that u will still have lots of RR cap to spare over all from dec 41 to june 42. This begs the question, if u expect just any kinda 42 axis offensive and u might not know exactly where it will fall. If it has merit in evacing stuff futher back like Stalingrad, Saratov and Gorky area's.
If u ask me the answer is yes. Assuming u do it in a way where u fully evac factories, maxing the damage to 50%. U will lose production, but doing it that way u will on average lose 50% of the production for the 17 turns it takes until repaired.
When it comes to tank like T 34, T 60 u have spare production. So i no reason not to do it, covering all eventuallties.
When it comes to aircraft espeically the figthers. i willl still do it, but it can use a delicate touch. U in the process of building up ur air regiments with the newer types so lost production is a factor. If u decide to do it. Either have a certain number off X aircraft in the pool before u start to evac or space out the evac if several factories of same type. So u dont get into a situasion where since just after evacing even fully the chance of production is still so low u might not get any. No need to find ur self in a situasion where ur pool dries up if it can be avoided.
Notes:
La 5 starts to produce in 5/42. So if u evac it in late Dec 41/ early Jan 42 it will be or almost fully repaired come production day. So u dont have to lose any or much production on those if evacing them from the Gorky area in dec/jan.
La 5FNs starts production in 4/43 so u can freely evac them until late in 42 and still get full production.
BA 64 production start 4/42 so if facs in Gorky/Murom area are evaced in dec 41 they will be fully or near repaired come prodcution.
T-70 got a 3/42 start production date. So if evaced early dec 41 they are near fully repaired come production date
Yak 3 free evac until late 43.
OT 34 starts production 7/42 so free evac if before 3/42.
LaGG 3 leave! stops production 8/42 no need to disrupt the production
All those types not mentioned u will lose production from if evaced. As per above i would still do em, cuz come a surprise 42 offensive u will only have arm/hi/vehicles to evac and that can usually be done in a turn or 2 from each of those area's. Leaving u in a much better situasion come such eventuallity.
U-2 series dicussion vs a potential supply shortage in 42. It has been noted by several player that if they have an large army come 42 and with a "normal" evacuation of HI, making then low prioverty. U can find ur self in supply problems. There are so many factors playing into it that u cant give a hard limit from the best recogning at moment is that if u get above 7.5-8m u might run into this issue.
Since each Tank/AFV/Combat vehicles/Aircrafts produced costs supply it raises the question if there is some of those that u never use and they will just enter ur pools. Since there is no way per say to turn production off, it has lead some players to use a tactic of evacing these into teeth of the germans in effect destroying em like that. Saving u supply. This use has an ethical side too it. Ill leave that up too ur selfs.
As noted earlier some players find the U-2 series espcially useless making it a prime candidate for this tactic.
The series consist of several types.
U-2VS light bomber. The lack of interchangebility of other aircraft mean it can just be moved forward with no futher thot
U-2 transport. Early on this is the aircraft that creates, new tranport regiments. Which means u need it until u have created enough regiments u can swicth out with other types. U have a number of tranport aircrafts in the inital pool plus u want to convert some to LI-2 regiments So u cant move it forward initially, but will have to wait until u have build of a pool of these regiments.
U-2 recon. This is the aircraft that creates, new recon regiments. Which means u need it until u have created enough regiments u can swicth out with other types, like R-5 and the SB-2 recon u have in the pool, plus the Re-2R u eventually will want. So u cant move it forward initially but need to wait until u have created a number of air recon regiments in the national reserve.
Flaviusx any further thots or comments?
< Message edited by Walloc -- 7/26/2012 6:40:46 PM >
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