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Its All DW's Fault - 1/24/2013 10:14:22 PM

Darkspire

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Thanks to some folks on here mentioning Dwarf Fortress on here more than once I went and had another look at it. Was put off initially because of the graphics years ago, I had a ZX80+81 and I had enough of ACSII graphic sets 30 years ago. Must have looked at 3 or 4 times over the years. This time I found Stonesense and the new tilesets, so now they look like a bad Amiga game, I can live with that

Ive now got cats everywhere, 2 dwarfs lost down a pit somewhere, 4 more who are covered in bandages and splints, mushrooms growing out of the walls, water pouring in everywhere, Elves who don't like me because I keep cutting down trees, they don't get far as I have now discovered Magma, cost me a few dwarfs working out floodgates but I think Ive got it worked out now. Haven't had this much fun in years, thanks folks

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RE: Its All DW's Fault - 1/25/2013 5:35:25 AM

thiosk2

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Oh dear, yeah, DF is quite a bug. Really gets ya in a gotcha. I managed to "beat" it, by weaponizing a zombie dragon. I terraformed the entire zone into a funnel you see, so whenever critters would approach, i called in the dwarves, and opened the gate to the zombie-dragon-in-a-box.

He would cook anything that came into spitting range, and if things did get scary, I could close the gates and pour magma over the whole place.

You'll tire of it, though, but about two updates into the next major release you'll be back to try out all the new stuff.

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RE: Its All DW's Fault - 1/25/2013 10:48:11 AM

Dd_01

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Yeah, DF

"60% - wiki, 30% - forums, 10% losing"

Can't wait for the new update, but Toady seems to improve Adventurer mostly :(

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RE: Its All DW's Fault - 1/25/2013 11:46:39 AM

Darkspire

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dd_01

Yeah, DF
"60% - wiki, 30% - forums, 10% losing"

Can't wait for the new update, but Toady seems to improve Adventurer mostly :(

From what Ive been reading on the blogs it now seem to have turned back towards Fortress mode, would seem that the three modes are done in chunks. Although Ive got a game going on 34.11, im still learning on v0.23.130.23a with an excellent tutorial, learn a few pages then try it out in 34.11, cant seem to work out though what the world map is for other than to fill it with other civs, beasties and legends, I'm still not sure whether I can move from the local zone that you embark on.

Darkspire

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RE: Its All DW's Fault - 1/25/2013 6:02:43 PM

feelotraveller

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In Fortress mode you can't leave your embark zone, at least not without abandoning the fort and starting another one.

The world map is for selecting your embark, or alternatively for romping around in when playing Adventurer mode. You can sequentially have fortresses in different places in the same world. Or swap between modes to amongst other things investigate your own abandoned forts.

But yeah, I suspect a lot of the world-playing mechanics are not yet in place, although it seems some work is being done towards this in the forthcoming version.

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RE: Its All DW's Fault - 1/26/2013 8:23:08 PM

PS Pita

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I investigated this game last night to see what you were all ranting about and all I can say is looks like a waste of time.
First where are the dwarfs, the zombie dragon, the box, the forts, the walls the mushrooms. In all truth looks like a big mess of giant pixels and
lets face it that's all it really is. Just looking at the screen shots hurts my eyes.
This is a graphic or video game? don't even want to call it that. It looks like it was developed by some high school kids learning basic programming who throw a bunch of unbalanced stats just their for the
sake of there being a lot of them.

Now you can say "its not about he graphics but the game play" I understand. Some of my favorite games have little to no graphics to speak of but there is something there for the imagination at least
and they don't hurt my eyes. Games like WITP, WITE, DW, hearts of iron II and III, decisive campaigns, jagged alliance 2, xcom ufo defense, (I know they are totally unrelated in this list but for the sake of the argument) all of these I can understand the desire to want to play even though the graphic aren't all there or there are no videos to speak of. But this game is a down right offense on the eyes and the imagination. Might as well punish my self and look at vomit through a microscope and list the elemental antibodies at war and stats on a spreed sheet that I discover!

Some gamers it seems are just after a game with the worst most indecipherable, the most insufferable graphics just so the they can say they play, like and understand them.
But I call it punishing yourself for maybe I don't know bragging rights? I played DF and liked it and you probably never heard it(nor would you want to)

You'd really rather play this game (this poor excuse of a game) rather than play Distant Worlds?

< Message edited by PS Pita -- 1/26/2013 8:51:15 PM >

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RE: Its All DW's Fault - 1/26/2013 8:28:42 PM

thiosk2

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Different, dwarf fortress is. Understand it, you do not. Surprised, I am not. Missing out, you remain.

The charachters are set up in such a way that you no longer see periods or ampersands... After you "attune" you see meadows, trees, rolling hills, and valleys streaked with troll teeth and goblin intestines. Try a newbie pack if the ASCII is impenetrable.

< Message edited by thiosk2 -- 1/26/2013 8:33:07 PM >

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RE: Its All DW's Fault - 1/26/2013 8:37:05 PM

PS Pita

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" Tarn Adams has declared it his life's work, expecting 20 years before it is complete; development is supported solely through donations, and contributors receive either short stories or crayon drawings as thank yous from the developers."

Wow, picked this up on its wiki. Still can't say I understand why they'd want to do this.

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RE: Its All DW's Fault - 1/26/2013 8:48:52 PM

PS Pita

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Is there a "newbie pack"? And does it actually have graphics clear enough to distinguish one object from another?

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RE: Its All DW's Fault - 1/26/2013 9:24:56 PM

Darkspire

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PS Pita

Is there a "newbie pack"? And does it actually have graphics clear enough to distinguish one object from another?

Lazy Newb Pack That's what Ive been using as regards graphics, when I can survive for a few years and get into it a little more i'll start to look at attempting to sort some graphic tiles myself as I used to do pixel art years ago. As I said in my original post, it does away with the late 70's Z80 ASCII art and moves up to an early 90's Amiga art, and I would say yes, does a much better job and makes it easier to distinguish things.

This is a link to a blog with images of the the graphic tiles I'm using, quite an amusing read as well.

Dwarf Fortress: The Song Of Onionbog, Pt 1

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RE: Its All DW's Fault - 1/26/2013 11:03:30 PM

jpwrunyan

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Dwarf Fortress is the best game ever. It will probably remain the best game ever because no one else has any hope of catching up to Toady1 until he dies. I doubt even the most bloated man-month developed game from a major developer exceeds his lone man-month total for this game. I could be wrong. But if you remove totals for programming 3d engines and making 3d models, I seriously doubt anything even comes close to matching the amount of time and effort that has gone into DF.

It's admirable also that he hasn't sold out despite offers to.

It's deplorable that Minecraft... well, exists.

To people who don't "get" why Dwarf Fortress is so awesome, all I can say is that all your favorite games are made by people who think Dwarf Fortress is awesome. And I don't care who you are or how much I may hate you, if you play Dwarf Fortress, you are awesome, too.

I play the game without tilesets. I have no problem interpretting the ascii. When I read a book, I can picture a cat when I see the word "cat". I don't need a picture of a cat. Regardless, I introduce the game to people using tilesets. But I remain stubbornly hardcore.

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RE: Its All DW's Fault - 1/27/2013 12:31:45 AM

PS Pita

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I don't think I'm going to like this but maybe I should at least give it a try...some day, with the lazy newb pack.
Seems I was a bit quick in in my dismissal of this game and too harsh in my criticism of what I saw on the surface, you have convinced me that there is a big fan base and for a reason which true I do not understand and may never. However to each their own.

< Message edited by PS Pita -- 1/27/2013 12:33:32 AM >

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RE: Its All DW's Fault - 1/27/2013 12:57:15 AM

unclean

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PS Pita

This is a graphic or video game? don't even want to call it that. It looks like it was developed by some high school kids learning basic programming who throw a bunch of unbalanced stats just their for the
sake of there being a lot of them.

I think the correct term is "roguelike"

If you want to get a taste of the unbounded craziness that is DF, try finding some lets plays. Boatmurdered is an old but awesome one.

If you want to actually play it though - ever try nethack? Pile several layers of terribleness on top of that UI, and you have DFs, it's bad. Might just want to try Gnomoria instead if you have no patience for interface design straight out of 1988.

< Message edited by unclean -- 1/27/2013 1:11:27 AM >

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RE: Its All DW's Fault - 1/27/2013 12:58:40 AM

unclean

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jpwrunyan

To people who don't "get" why Dwarf Fortress is so awesome, all I can say is that all your favorite games are made by people who think Dwarf Fortress is awesome.

Wait what?

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RE: Its All DW's Fault - 1/27/2013 2:15:54 AM

thiosk2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: unclean

quote:

ORIGINAL: jpwrunyan

To people who don't "get" why Dwarf Fortress is so awesome, all I can say is that all your favorite games are made by people who think Dwarf Fortress is awesome.

Wait what?

There are tons of references to DF in all sorts of games. My favorite is the named diablo 3 axe, the burning axe of sankis, a clear reference to boatmurdered, a fantastic introduction to DF in general and probably the greatest lets play in history.

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RE: Its All DW's Fault - 1/27/2013 4:47:02 AM

Darkspire

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PS Pita

I don't think I'm going to like this but maybe I should at least give it a try...some day, with the lazy newb pack.
Seems I was a bit quick in in my dismissal of this game and too harsh in my criticism of what I saw on the surface, you have convinced me that there is a big fan base and for a reason which true I do not understand and may never. However to each their own.

If you are going to give it a try, this is the the tutorial I have been using The Complete and Utter Newby Tutorial for Dwarf Fortress

This tutorial has links for a download, single RAR about 15mb, with everything you need, its an older version of DF (v0.23.130.23a) current version is DF2012 34.11. The download has the game, graphics pack, a dorf, sorry, dwarf manager and a save that the tutorial works from. Once you have got through the first two chapters download the lazy newb pack for the current version, everything is the same as the tutorial only updated, even the Dwarf manager which is now called the Dwarf therapist, you can then try the newer version and appreciate how much work has gone into it over the years. Just make sure that you have the DF wiki link to hand, you can look up data from both versions on there and it makes learning so much easier.

I did mention that the graphics were a tad retro, that's what put me off for years, and with no disrespect you really would have to have started with a Z80/81 or a Spectrum to really understand the gameplay over graphics issue (Lords of Midnight, Doomdarks Revenge, Shadowfire, Elite as a few examples off the top of my head), back then the graphics were functional, the depth of gameplay had to hold you as the graphics certainly wouldn't, so complexity was a must but as the years wore on and graphics became better it was almost like watching scales, depth of gameplay on one side and graphics on the other and the scales have been tipping towards graphics and diluting gameplay for years. There are very few titles today that have the same depth as games that were doing the rounds 20 years ago. As an example, one of the games you mentioned, X-Com UFO Defense, look at the new version, graphics are top notch but the gameplay? Like a puddle compared to the ocean that is the original. DW has functional graphics but buckets of gameplay depth, you can play for months and still find things that you didn't realize could be done. It just seems most games these days feel the need to push graphics over gameplay, maybe its the consoles but who knows. In all honesty, when you hear of a new game and visit its homepage, what do you click on first, screenshots or features?
I just hope that one day we can have both, games with both deep complex gameplay and killer graphics until then I'll stick with Indie devs like Codeforce, opensource, open alphas or freeware.

Darkspire

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RE: Its All DW's Fault - 1/27/2013 9:08:23 PM

jpwrunyan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: unclean

quote:

ORIGINAL: PS Pita

This is a graphic or video game? don't even want to call it that. It looks like it was developed by some high school kids learning basic programming who throw a bunch of unbalanced stats just their for the
sake of there being a lot of them.

I think the correct term is "roguelike"

People always say that but I think it often is misleading. Adventure mode is rogue-like. Fortress mode is anything but. Diablo is more rogue-like than Dwarf Fortress's Fortress Mode. And one of the most impressive aspects of Dwarf Fortress is that it contains these two almost completely separate game-styles (civ-simulation and rogue-like adventure game) while intertwining them in one world system.

So anyway, I never call it a rogue-like. I think that misses the forest for one of the trees. Like going to Disney World and only visiting the Epcot Center. It's a big game. And the rogue-like adventure mode was never part of the appeal for me (though I appreciate its significance and think it is really cool to be able to loot the ruins as an adventurer of a civilization you played in fortress mode).

People who don't enjoy DF don't have to feel bad. Like particle physics, it's not for everyone. I can't do particle physics (although I would surely find it rewarding if I could invest the time to learn how). But people who can do particle physics are awesome.

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RE: Its All DW's Fault - 1/28/2013 9:21:12 AM

Gareth_Bryne

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Gentlemen, I think that we can agree that all DF lacks for not scaring the newbs away is an in-game wiki and a mouse driven interface, restructured from the one it has now. The amount of options is staggering for a newb, and for a regular it's still easy to forget about something sometimes...

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RE: Its All DW's Fault - 1/28/2013 9:48:48 AM

Darkspire

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gareth_Bryne

Gentlemen, I think that we can agree that all DF lacks for not scaring the newbs away is an in-game wiki and a mouse driven interface, restructured from the one it has now. The amount of options is staggering for a newb, and for a regular it's still easy to forget about something sometimes...

I realize that your an experienced player but have a look at the link for the tutorial I posted. I would have to say that it is one of the best tutorials Ive ever used for a game, well written, easy to follow and just a dash of humor. Every basic starting aspect of the game is covered in detail and as you follow the rest of the chapters you gain a really good understanding of the game and how things work, I would say that if a noob doesn't understand DF after reading that then its best they go back and plug there 360 in

Darkspire

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RE: Its All DW's Fault - 1/29/2013 8:48:45 AM

Gareth_Bryne

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Oh, I agree

, that tutorial was my own starting place. But understanding DF... that would be an achievement. There are so many sides to that game, that all so-called "modern" games are years away from the gameplay it offers. Well, except DW, EVE, TW and Civ, and a few others. But I'll stand by my statement - a tutorial is good, but Toady giving attention to the interface would make FUN easier for thousands...

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RE: Its All DW's Fault - 1/29/2013 10:08:16 PM

jpwrunyan

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Depends on what kind of "fun" you mean. DF "fun" is increased and enhanced by the obtuse interface and cliff-like learning curve. But yeah, if you mean fun as in fun, then yeah.

I remember my first fortress being overrun with miasma because I hadn't yet discovered the esoteric principles of waste disposal. That was "fun".

I think I am going to play Dwarf Fortress today.

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RE: Its All DW's Fault - 1/30/2013 9:12:36 PM

Darkspire

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Ive been playing with pressure plates and levers. Now have 4 dorfs in hospital and the elven traders had an accident with my new drawbridge when a gremlin got in and started to jinx the levers, need to work out how to chain dogs up as bait / guard duty, think that one with the elves is going to bite me in a few years if not sooner. Dug a hole trying to work out mud and let in a really nasty beastie, haven't a clue what it is but it was really trashing the place, at the moment Ive got it trapped a few levels below the fortress, now rapidly sorting out armor and getting the military in shape to take care of it.

Next is minecarts after I try out the new DW v1.7.0.20 update

Darkspire

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RE: Its All DW's Fault - 1/31/2013 6:25:46 AM

Dd_01

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The best thing in minecarts is that you can squash the goblins! Or put lots of metal stuff in them and make devastating minecart-shotgun

Only yesterday i discovered that goods can be put in Bins, and there's no need in HUGE stockpiles. Now i have hectars of useless space.
Now i'm finishing epic 40+ level pumpstack to finally bring water in my fortress.

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RE: Its All DW's Fault - 2/3/2013 8:44:21 PM

jpwrunyan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dd_01

The best thing in minecarts is that you can squash the goblins! Or put lots of metal stuff in them and make devastating minecart-shotgun
Only yesterday i discovered that goods can be put in Bins, and there's no need in HUGE stockpiles. Now i have hectars of useless space.
Now i'm finishing epic 40+ level pumpstack to finally bring water in my fortress.

I loled when I read this.
Bins are so basic and easy, but minecarts are hugely esoteric for me. I just stick with wheelbarrows and tell my dwarves that the exercise is good for them.

Also, I totally hate constructing pumps and machinery. I made a windmill powered uphill aqueduct once, and then a dragon came. I fixed it, but still, just give me a river. Of course, 40+ levels of machinery is definitely more dwarfy.

Anyway, still no Shadows. So back to Dwarf Fortress.

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RE: Its All DW's Fault - 2/3/2013 9:10:23 PM

Darkspire

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Im not that advanced yet but im getting there, Ive managed to survive for over a year and have really started to understand about 10% of it

Minecarts? This really looks like a logistics nightmare ...

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RE: Its All DW's Fault - 2/5/2013 7:46:49 PM

Dd_01

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quote:

squash the goblins

something like this

Minecarts are totally cool. You can even transport water and MAGMA in them (no need in huge pumpstacks to feed magma-forges) - just make them ride through magma-filled channel, and they will be full of sweet hot mountain blood.

And another thing - use lots of cage- and weapon-traps. First ones allow you to catch almost every creature in the game (and you can drop it to the bottomless/spiked/drown pit later). And the second ones... mmm... load them with serrated disks and giant axes, watch at orgy of blood and gore and laugh maniacally.

quote:

I totally hate constructing pumps and machinery

It's because usually you need them in large numbers. Constructing a small pumped waterwheel-powered waterfall (which also can act as shower room) is easy and relaxing.

< Message edited by Dd_01 -- 2/5/2013 7:50:23 PM >

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RE: Its All DW's Fault - 2/6/2013 10:44:29 PM

drillerman

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Quite like DF myself but should this thread be in the general discussion forum?

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RE: Its All DW's Fault - 2/7/2013 7:24:45 AM

Darkspire

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quote:

ORIGINAL: drillerman

Quite like DF myself but should this thread be in the general discussion forum?

This is the Distant Worlds general discussion forum. Whats the difference?

Darkspire

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RE: Its All DW's Fault - 2/11/2013 11:30:46 PM

jpwrunyan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: drillerman

Quite like DF myself but should this thread be in the general discussion forum?

For me, this thread is an experiment to see how long it goes unnoticed by the mods.
Or perhaps it has been noticed but they haven't locked/deleted/moved it because they are also DF fanbois.

Fear the carp, for they fear not you.

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