Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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ORIGINAL: Treale

So was England better or worse for the Norman Conquest?

warspite1

Difficult to answer of course because although we know how things turned out under the Normans, there is no way of knowing how would they have gone under continued Anglo-Saxon rule? My gut feel is that the Norman Conquest was a positive in terms of this country's development.

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ORIGINAL: Orm

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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ORIGINAL: Treale

So was England better or worse for the Norman Conquest?

warspite1

Difficult to answer of course because although we know how things turned out under the Normans, there is no way of knowing how would they have gone under continued Anglo-Saxon rule? My gut feel is that the Norman Conquest was a positive in terms of this country's development.

Right now I feel the opposite. But I can be convinced to change my thoughts about this.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

I remember reading that Edward I was the first Plantagenet who could speak English. Still a second language for him, though. When, or even if, any Plantagenet ever thought of himself as English I don't know. I'd also be curious as to when (or if) any such transition took place. Shakespeare treats the later ones as if they were English, though, and he wasn't too far removed from their times. So, I'm guessing that probably by the time of Henry IV, at least, they thought of themselves as English.

Certainly the earlier ones, such as Henry II & Richard I (Lion Hearted) regarded themselves as either Norman or French, with England a conquered province they were lording it over. That seems to make the Magna Carta sort of a French/Norman document, regulating French/Norman lords & kings, by the way.

warspite1

Well certainly not French - the Normans (largely descended from Vikings - Norsemen) did not really consider themselves French at all. Welcome to the hotch potch of European history.

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

I remember reading that Edward I was the first Plantagenet who could speak English. Still a second language for him, though. When, or even if, any Plantagenet ever thought of himself as English I don't know. I'd also be curious as to when (or if) any such transition took place. Shakespeare treats the later ones as if they were English, though, and he wasn't too far removed from their times. So, I'm guessing that probably by the time of Henry IV, at least, they thought of themselves as English.

Certainly the earlier ones, such as Henry II & Richard I (Lion Hearted) regarded themselves as either Norman or French, with England a conquered province they were lording it over. That seems to make the Magna Carta sort of a French/Norman document, regulating French/Norman lords & kings, by the way.

warspite1

Well certainly not French - the Normans (largely descended from Vikings - Norsemen) did not really consider themselves French at all. Welcome to the hotch potch of European history.

Even the Conquerer's children were a blend. But for sure, Henry II was the son of Geoffrey of Anjou, and Henry's wife was from Aquitaine. So Richard I was, at best, 1/4 Norman - the rest mostly French. John's wife was from Angouleme & his son's wife was from Provence. Then Edward I & Edward II had French wives. You have to go to Edward III to find a non-French wife. Then Henry V & Henry VI were back to French again. The Plantagenets were pretty much French.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

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ORIGINAL: Treale

Wasn't the last English King Harold? And how many years until a King stopped speaking French and started speaking English. Did Richard III speak English? Just curious

I remember reading that Edward I was the first Plantagenet who could speak English. Still a second language for him, though. When, or even if, any Plantagenet ever thought of himself as English I don't know. I'd also be curious as to when (or if) any such transition took place. Shakespeare treats the later ones as if they were English, though, and he wasn't too far removed from their times. So, I'm guessing that probably by the time of Henry IV, at least, they thought of themselves as English.

Certainly the earlier ones, such as Henry II & Richard I (Lion Hearted) regarded themselves as either Norman or French, with England a conquered province they were lording it over. That seems to make the Magna Carta sort of a French/Norman document, regulating French/Norman lords & kings, by the way.

warspite1

Well certainly not French - the Normans (largely descended from Vikings - Norsemen) did not really consider themselves French at all. Welcome to the hotch potch of European history.

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ORIGINAL: rogo727

I often kid my wife and say my ancestors only burnt and pillaged..(mine are mostly all German ). While hers raped burnt and pillaged ( she is mostly Swedish and Norway heritage )

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

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ORIGINAL: Treale

Wasn't the last English King Harold? And how many years until a King stopped speaking French and started speaking English. Did Richard III speak English? Just curious

I remember reading that Edward I was the first Plantagenet who could speak English. Still a second language for him, though. When, or even if, any Plantagenet ever thought of himself as English I don't know. I'd also be curious as to when (or if) any such transition took place. Shakespeare treats the later ones as if they were English, though, and he wasn't too far removed from their times. So, I'm guessing that probably by the time of Henry IV, at least, they thought of themselves as English.

Certainly the earlier ones, such as Henry II & Richard I (Lion Hearted) regarded themselves as either Norman or French, with England a conquered province they were lording it over. That seems to make the Magna Carta sort of a French/Norman document, regulating French/Norman lords & kings, by the way.

warspite1

Well certainly not French - the Normans (largely descended from Vikings - Norsemen) did not really consider themselves French at all. Welcome to the hotch potch of European history.

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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ORIGINAL: Orm

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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ORIGINAL: Treale

So was England better or worse for the Norman Conquest?

warspite1

Difficult to answer of course because although we know how things turned out under the Normans, there is no way of knowing how would they have gone under continued Anglo-Saxon rule? My gut feel is that the Norman Conquest was a positive in terms of this country's development.

Right now I feel the opposite. But I can be convinced to change my thoughts about this.

warspite1

There was a brilliant BBC series a few years back called The Normans. I have it on order - should arrive next week - and I will post some of the points raised in the program.

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ORIGINAL: catwhoorg

Much like the Romans, it is almost impossible to imagine what the modern nation would be like without that conquest.

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ORIGINAL: wodin

Richard liked the boys..

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ORIGINAL: stockwellpete

The War of the Roses would make an excellent subject for a two-player WEGO computer wargame. I know there is a new game called exactly this but it is an action-type game rather than a political strategy-type game. I have played Field of Glory PC a lot oer the last two years and I have designed custom scenarios for all the main battles plus I linked them all up with a very basic text campaign system (in hard copy, not a computer programme). And the results of the campaigns that have been played have come out fairly evenly between Yorkists and Lancastrians - basically victory points are awarded for winning battles and killing leaders of the other faction. So I think a well-researched wargame for the PC would be a very interesting project indeed.

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ORIGINAL: stockwellpete

The War of the Roses would make an excellent subject for a two-player WEGO computer wargame. I know there is a new game called exactly this but it is an action-type game rather than a political strategy-type game. I have played Field of Glory PC a lot oer the last two years and I have designed custom scenarios for all the main battles plus I linked them all up with a very basic text campaign system (in hard copy, not a computer programme). And the results of the campaigns that have been played have come out fairly evenly between Yorkists and Lancastrians - basically victory points are awarded for winning battles and killing leaders of the other faction. So I think a well-researched wargame for the PC would be a very interesting project indeed.

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

I remember reading that Edward I was the first Plantagenet who could speak English. Still a second language for him, though. When, or even if, any Plantagenet ever thought of himself as English I don't know. I'd also be curious as to when (or if) any such transition took place. Shakespeare treats the later ones as if they were English, though, and he wasn't too far removed from their times. So, I'm guessing that probably by the time of Henry IV, at least, they thought of themselves as English.

Certainly the earlier ones, such as Henry II & Richard I (Lion Hearted) regarded themselves as either Norman or French, with England a conquered province they were lording it over. That seems to make the Magna Carta sort of a French/Norman document, regulating French/Norman lords & kings, by the way.

warspite1

Well certainly not French - the Normans (largely descended from Vikings - Norsemen) did not really consider themselves French at all. Welcome to the hotch potch of European history.

Even the Conquerer's children were a blend. But for sure, Henry II was the son of Geoffrey of Anjou, and Henry's wife was from Aquitaine. So Richard I was, at best, 1/4 Norman - the rest mostly French. John's wife was from Angouleme & his son's wife was from Provence. Then Edward I & Edward II had French wives. You have to go to Edward III to find a non-French wife. Then Henry V & Henry VI were back to French again. The Plantagenets were pretty much French.

warspite1

But not French in the sense we know today. Could you argue that the 100-years war was in fact a French civil war?

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ORIGINAL: Treale

Isn't the present day Royal Family of German Ancestry?

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ORIGINAL: wodin

yes..Saxo Gothbergs

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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ORIGINAL: wodin

yes..Saxo Gothbergs

warspite1

Also known as Saxe-Coburg Gotha. Queen Victoria's husband Prince Albert came from that House, although Victoria herself was of German descent - her father was the son of King George III (of Hanoverian descent, and whose Grandfather - George II - was the last English King born outside the UK) and her mother was also German of the Saxe-Coburg Saalfeld House.

Still with it? Good cos I'm thoroughly confused

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ORIGINAL: Empire101

Correct.

Thats why I posted Richard was the very last 'true' English King.

As to them speaking french; french was the the language of the court as custom dictated, but he spoke english when 'off duty'

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As to the German ancestry; it is of course true the present House of Windsor has a strong strain of German, but that is rapidly diminishing.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: Zorch

Henry Tudor's father's father was Welsh. His father's mother was French (the widow of Henry V).
His mother was descended from Edward III.

The saying that the Tudors were 'the most English dynasty since...' is based on the other Tudors, IMHO.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: Zorch

Didn't Queen Elizabeth II change the name of the current royal family to Windsor-Mountbatten, in honor of her husband?

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: Zorch

George V changed it to Windsor (from Saxe-Coburg) during WWI.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805