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Restricted Units - 2/9/2013 8:22:34 PM

jcax101

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Hi,

Long time since I have been in the action. Bought AE a year ago and still studying. Did a lot of WitP and understand AE is different (and better). I looked through some threads about restricted units but couldn't find what I was looking for.

I know there have been issues with the wholesale transfer of IJA units from Kwantung and China, but I am curious if some units can be transferred at all. In scenario 1 and 2 it seems like the big divisions can only transfer to another command that falls under the umbrella of the China Army or Kwantung Army, thereby staying restricted and not being able to transfer off the continent. In other words even if I have enough PP to change the command of a big division I can't change its HQ to Southern Army. I don't want to walk these units into Burma but not sure what the alternatives are.

Any input or background would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Scott

Post #: 1

RE: Restricted Units - 2/9/2013 8:28:31 PM

joey

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To be honest, I do not transfer them. I simply move them to China. They work fine.
The issue you need to worry about it not to fall below the level for Russian intervention. Never go below that number. I leave plenty of margin when moving units to China.

(in reply to jcax101)

Post #: 2

RE: Restricted Units - 2/9/2013 8:46:55 PM

jcax101

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Yes have to keep the 8k assault value, and no worries against the AI, but I was looking towards a PBEM with house rules that would accept me moving by paying PP. I just don't see how I can transfer out the big divisions. The AA and ENG no problem, and that helps but will eventually need some of the heavies.

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Post #: 3

RE: Restricted Units - 2/9/2013 9:07:04 PM

Alfred

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1. If the HQ named on the LCU screen is in white, you cannot change that unit to another HQ. If instead it is in yellow you can change the attachment to another HQ.

2. There is a discount PP cost if changing to another HQ within the same line of command. Divisions cost a lot of PPs so without the discount you just may not have saved up enough PPs.

Alfred

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Post #: 4

RE: Restricted Units - 2/10/2013 4:10:17 AM

Capt Hornblower

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jcax101

...I was looking towards a PBEM with house rules that would accept me moving by paying PP...

Now, why would any sane AFB agree to this?

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Post #: 5

RE: Restricted Units - 2/10/2013 1:16:31 PM

PaxMondo

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Div's cost ~1500 PP each (roughly one months' worth). So if you aren't seeing more choices, you haven't saved enough PP's.

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RE: Restricted Units - 2/10/2013 2:32:26 PM

Chris21wen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt Hornblower

quote:

ORIGINAL: jcax101

...I was looking towards a PBEM with house rules that would accept me moving by paying PP...

Now, why would any sane AFB agree to this?

Why not? If anybody is prepared to pay the PPs for leaving the area of command it's up to them. Now before someone says it wasn't done historically it's a game plus, it is highly unlikely that the strategic situation will be identical to the historical one. Who is to say what the Japanese/Allies would have done if the historically situation was the same as in the game.

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Post #: 7

RE: Restricted Units - 2/10/2013 3:19:38 PM

crsutton

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This is a common house rule for Pbemial. All Manchurian units moved into China must be paid for in PPs. Pretty fair.

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RE: Restricted Units - 2/10/2013 9:59:07 PM

Chris21wen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

This is a common house rule for Pbemial. All Manchurian units moved into China must be paid for in PPs. Pretty fair.

I thought that's what I said. I was replying to a comment that appeared to not want to allow this.

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RE: Restricted Units - 2/11/2013 12:27:01 AM

aphrochine

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I think something should be said for moving to Corps/Army HQs under the restricted HQs and then simply moving the that HQ out. Something like:

- No assigning non-AF based BF/Eng/AA units to Air HQs.
- Observe respectable thresholds of Army/Corps HQs, ie Limit a Corps to a corps' worth of units, Army to an army's worth of units, etc.

This is based off the discount of transferring units to HQs within the same Theater, which is 1/4 the cost of normal inter theater transfer.

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RE: Restricted Units - 2/11/2013 1:22:40 AM

Capt Hornblower

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

This is a common house rule for Pbemial. All Manchurian units moved into China must be paid for in PPs. Pretty fair.

I don't have much experience playing as the Japanese, but playing as the Allies, I can say that after the first month or so of the campaign, I have more Political Points than I know what to do with. If the same holds for the Japanese, then paying Political Points for moving units from Manchuria to China doesn't seem like much of a hindrance. What could a Japanese player offer me as the Allies to entice me to go along with allowing something to happen that could not happen historically?

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RE: Restricted Units - 2/11/2013 8:02:30 PM

rroberson

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tread carefully with this. The one thing I have learned is there are ways to skirt around paying full PPs to move divisions about and it was a most unhappy discovery.

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Post #: 12

RE: Restricted Units - 2/12/2013 1:03:45 AM

tk208

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt Hornblower

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

This is a common house rule for Pbemial. All Manchurian units moved into China must be paid for in PPs. Pretty fair.

I don't have much experience playing as the Japanese, but playing as the Allies, I can say that after the first month or so of the campaign, I have more Political Points than I know what to do with. If the same holds for the Japanese, then paying Political Points for moving units from Manchuria to China doesn't seem like much of a hindrance. What could a Japanese player offer me as the Allies to entice me to go along with allowing something to happen that could not happen historically?

Trust me after buying out a few full size div's you quickly run out of PP's as the japs!

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Post #: 13

RE: Restricted Units - 2/12/2013 6:29:07 PM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tk208

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt Hornblower

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

This is a common house rule for Pbemial. All Manchurian units moved into China must be paid for in PPs. Pretty fair.

I don't have much experience playing as the Japanese, but playing as the Allies, I can say that after the first month or so of the campaign, I have more Political Points than I know what to do with. If the same holds for the Japanese, then paying Political Points for moving units from Manchuria to China doesn't seem like much of a hindrance. What could a Japanese player offer me as the Allies to entice me to go along with allowing something to happen that could not happen historically?

Trust me after buying out a few full size div's you quickly run out of PP's as the japs!

1700 or so PPs for some of those nicely experienced divisions out of Manchuria, right? Quite pricy...

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RE: Restricted Units - 2/13/2013 5:34:25 AM

Capt Hornblower

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
1700 or so PPs for some of those nicely experienced divisions out of Manchuria, right? Quite pricy...

Still doesn't tell me why someone playing the Allies would agree to make life more difficult for himself by allowing his opponent the option to move units from Manchuria into China.

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RE: Restricted Units - 2/13/2013 6:59:23 AM

heibernt

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt Hornblower

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
1700 or so PPs for some of those nicely experienced divisions out of Manchuria, right? Quite pricy...

Still doesn't tell me why someone playing the Allies would agree to make life more difficult for himself by allowing his opponent the option to move units from Manchuria into China.

Im also an AFB, and i never have enough PPs. Too many restricted units on the west coast that needs to be bought out and moved into the pacific, and too many leaders that needs to be changed, and AC that needs to be changed..
The point is that the game engine allow those units being moved into china (the same way your indian units are allowed to move into Burma)without any restrictions. If any allied player plays without this HR; my hat is off to them. I guess they will have a hard time holding China.

But when a unit changes HQ, and is allowed moving by ship from WC to Australia, it would be strange not to let it march from Manchuria to China (something the engine let them do anyways).. Mind you that not all units are allowed to change HQ, and spending all PPs here will hamper the wareffort other places.

So the question isnt whether an allied player should allow units beeing bought out of manchuria, but if they require PPs to do so. If you wouldnt allow that, i guess a japanese player would counter not allowing you to buy out, and ship, those WC units..

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RE: Restricted Units - 2/13/2013 3:29:37 PM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt Hornblower

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
1700 or so PPs for some of those nicely experienced divisions out of Manchuria, right? Quite pricy...

Still doesn't tell me why someone playing the Allies would agree to make life more difficult for himself by allowing his opponent the option to move units from Manchuria into China.

I've been following Bullwinkle's AAR, at least partially because I'm of the same mindset - I think Japan needs just about every advantage it can get, as I'm not sure victory is possible for them, all things being equal (player strategic and tactical skills) outside of the chance for an auto-victory... I'm still learning here, feel free to educate me if somebody or multiple somebodies have fought it out with a favorable result for Japan

. To me, a draw in 1946 isn't really a victory. It would be astounding if the IJ economy lasted long enough to support it, and I'll grant that it's a moral victory, but by the victory conditions coded into the game...

It's all in the eye of the beholder, really. Everybody's got a preferred flavor.

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RE: Restricted Units - 2/13/2013 5:18:08 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
1700 or so PPs for some of those nicely experienced divisions out of Manchuria, right? Quite pricy...

1700-1900's, depending on the outfit and readiness status of the Manchurian division. Takes 34-38 days of exclusive banking of PPs. More like 45-60 days / division IRL (with the other needed usage of PPs in a campaign game). That's a fair trade off, IMO. It's costly and time consuming for the Japanese player, but it can be done over time.

Not all Manchurian divisions are the same. Focus on those units that give you the biggest bang for your buck. Unit 'experience' levels don't cost more, so you should first buy / recombine and buy those most experienced IJA divisions.

Like rroberson says, be crystal clear with your opponent how they envision 'paying' for these Japanese (or Allied) units. Insist that 'buying' units be done by 'retail' PP, not some of the HQ workarounds that are admitted exploits.

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RE: Restricted Units - 2/13/2013 5:22:17 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt Hornblower

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
1700 or so PPs for some of those nicely experienced divisions out of Manchuria, right? Quite pricy...

Still doesn't tell me why someone playing the Allies would agree to make life more difficult for himself by allowing his opponent the option to move units from Manchuria into China.

A typical 'trade off' for this involves usage of Allied armies outside of their national boundaries too. If the Allies intend to use units 'restricted' to CONUS (lots of infantry, base force and air units) by 'buying' them out with PPs for the South Pacific, that's the trade off.

Similarly-want to use Indian troops in Burma or Malaya outside of their historical purview? Evacuate Chinese LCUs beyond the historical out of China? Pay the PPs. It's a trade off.

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RE: Restricted Units - 2/13/2013 5:24:12 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt Hornblower

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
1700 or so PPs for some of those nicely experienced divisions out of Manchuria, right? Quite pricy...

Still doesn't tell me why someone playing the Allies would agree to make life more difficult for himself by allowing his opponent the option to move units from Manchuria into China.

Go read my AAR.

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RE: Restricted Units - 2/13/2013 9:21:59 PM

pontiouspilot

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This is a timely thread as I'm almost ready to PBEM and I want to understand this notion of "restricted units" and political points. To date I have only played AE as Allies so my examples will only touch on them. As I understand the resricted units...1) some are unable to be moved in any fashion outside their defined area, 2) some units can be moved to a different HQ thereby making them available eg. many of the West Coast squadrons. For these to move them you must pay the politcal points the computer asks for. 3) What about many other units that are assigned to say the South West

Pacific command....say for example the 81st infantry division assigned to SW Pac. I can still physically move 81st and use them it in say Alaska, for example. Is this considered one of the moves that would require me to change HQ to, say North Pacific, before being able to use that unit in that area? If so I better grasp this before play by em. If this is what is meant by such restricted tranfers/political points then where is the master map defining these command areas??

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RE: Restricted Units - 2/14/2013 9:49:08 AM

Capt Hornblower

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

This is a timely thread as I'm almost ready to PBEM and I want to understand this notion of "restricted units" and political points. To date I have only played AE as Allies so my examples will only touch on them. As I understand the resricted units...1) some are unable to be moved in any fashion outside their defined area, 2) some units can be moved to a different HQ thereby making them available eg. many of the West Coast squadrons. For these to move them you must pay the politcal points the computer asks for. 3) What about many other units that are assigned to say the South West Pacific command....say for example the 81st infantry division assigned to SW Pac. I can still physically move 81st and use them it in say Alaska, for example. Is this considered one of the moves that would require me to change HQ to, say North Pacific, before being able to use that unit in that area? If so I better grasp this before play by em. If this is what is meant by such restricted tranfers/political points then where is the master map defining these command areas??

The HQ for air and land units is listed in the upper lefthand corner of the unit's information window. If the listing is in white, the HQ cannot be changed and cannot be moved to a base not under the same HQ's command. If the HQ listing is in yellow, it can be clicked on, which will bring up another window. On the new window are listed the side's headquarters. To the upper right on this window is the Political Point cost for changing the unit's HQ to another HQ under the same command HQ and for changing it to another command HQ.

An unrestricted unit (like the 81st Division) can be moved anywhere you want (like Alaska), but if you move it someplace far from its HQ, it will not derive a command benefit if it becomes engaged in combat. (For air units, there are ramifications regarding acquisition of replacement and upgrade aircraft.)

The map for the various commands is the large theater map accessible from the top menu bar.

Addendum: If I understand the manual correctly, there are 2 types of semi-restricted units-- one that can immediately be unrestricted thru the use of Political Points for a change in HQ, and one which requires the unit's HQ to itself be changed to a different Command before its subordinate units can also be changed.

< Message edited by Capt Hornblower -- 2/14/2013 10:02:02 AM >

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RE: Restricted Units - 2/14/2013 12:13:56 PM

JocMeister

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt Hornblower

I don't have much experience playing as the Japanese, but playing as the Allies, I can say that after the first month or so of the campaign, I have more Political Points than I know what to do with.

What?

I�m in 44 and I�m still short on PPs!

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RE: Restricted Units - 2/14/2013 12:25:51 PM

Blackhorse

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot
3) What about many other units that are assigned to say the South West Pacific command....say for example the 81st infantry division assigned to SW Pac. I can still physically move 81st and use them it in say Alaska, for example. Is this considered one of the moves that would require me to change HQ to, say North Pacific, before being able to use that unit in that area? If so I better grasp this before play by em. If this is what is meant by such restricted tranfers/political points then where is the master map defining these command areas??

No. The PBEM discussions about House Rules for paying PPs to move units across national boundaries, or about paying 'retail' (full PP) instead of finding ways to release LCUs for 1/4 of the cost are nearly all concerned with transferring LCUs and air units from restricted HQs to unrestricted HQs.

As far as most of us are concerned, once a unit is unrestricted, you can send it wherever you want.

Some games will have additional house rules prohibiting, say, British or US air units operating from Chinese bases unless there is an aviation support LCU from that country at the base.

Enjoy your first PBEM!

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RE: Restricted Units - 2/14/2013 12:59:53 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt Hornblower

The HQ for air and land units is listed in the upper lefthand corner of the unit's information window. If the listing is in white, the HQ cannot be changed and cannot be moved to a base not under the same HQ's command.

Not true. You can walk a unit anywhere it can walk. I can send a West Coast LCU to a Canada HQ base just fine. Try it.

An unrestricted unit (like the 81st Division) can be moved anywhere you want (like Alaska), but if you move it someplace far from its HQ, it will not derive a command benefit if it becomes engaged in combat.

Not true either. It doesn't matter a bit if a unit is near its own HQ. If it's in the command range of an HQ on its side it gets the benefit, if any.

Addendum: If I understand the manual correctly, there are 2 types of semi-restricted units-- one that can immediately be unrestricted thru the use of Political Points for a change in HQ, and one which requires the unit's HQ to itself be changed to a different Command before its subordinate units can also be changed.

Nope. If you have the PPs you can move any unit any place it is allowed to go at any time. There's no enforced hierarchy. There can be discounts for moving a unit to a different command in the same hierarchy, but nothing stops you from assigning an infantry division to a Fighter Command.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 2/14/2013 1:00:28 PM >

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RE: Restricted Units - 2/14/2013 7:16:45 PM

pontiouspilot

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All very helpful....especially the load of Bull!!...he always has the answer. Can Bull and Blhorse give me some actual examples of what is meant by transferring "restricted units" and paying full political points? How do you pay the full points?...with the example I gave of moving 81st from SWPAC to Northpac the computer asks for the points. Does it ask for the points with the type of restricted transfer Blkhorse speaks of? Also, in light of Bull's comments I ask why the hell I would bother tranfering 81st and paying the points if it can function just as efficiently under it's original HQ?

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RE: Restricted Units - 2/14/2013 8:45:24 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

All very helpful....especially the load of Bull!!...he always has the answer. Can Bull and Blhorse give me some actual examples of what is meant by transferring "restricted units" and paying full political points? How do you pay the full points?...with the example I gave of moving 81st from SWPAC to Northpac the computer asks for the points. Does it ask for the points with the type of restricted transfer Blkhorse speaks of? Also, in light of Bull's comments I ask why the hell I would bother tranfering 81st and paying the points if it can function just as efficiently under it's original HQ?

If a unit is in yellow with an R you can pay PPs to put it in an unrestricted yellow HQ and then you can load it on a ship and send it where you like. White restricted units won't load, but they can walk. Asia is a big place. So is North America.

The PP thing is normally in a PBEM game where there is a house rule to make it illegal to cross a national border (the thick brown lines) with a yellow restricted unit not having first been put in an unrestricted command. This is often due to Allies' fear of a lot of Manchurian LCUs walking into China to over-run the place, but it also applies to things like the Indian army moving into Burma. The game won't stop you from going across a border. The border code was never finished in the development phase.

In my PBEM game there is no such HR. I think the effects balance out.

There is no advanatge to trying to line up moved untis with a local HQ unless you care about historical issues. The game doesn't care. There is no classic wargame hierarchy built in where units suffer morale or supply effects if far away from their named HQ. PPs are so precious in the game that you can't line up everybody and also do the things you need to do with PPs in order to win. LCUs will fight for any HQ they're close to, even cross-nationality.

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RE: Restricted Units - 2/14/2013 9:25:30 PM

pontiouspilot

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Thanks Bull...your clarity is appreciated. So, if I was playing a humanoid and it was a House Rule that I had to "pay" x political points to do something...say move Indian troops into Burma...how do I pay them?? As you said, if I am making them walk the computer doesn't ask for points.

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RE: Restricted Units - 2/14/2013 10:32:58 PM

Q-Ball

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I personally like playing with a House Rule that forbids any restricted units moving across national borders. This keeps Kwantung units in Manchuria, Allied Chinese in China, and the Indian Army in India....unless you buy units out.

And as other say, there needs to be two other rules:

1. "Retail" purchases only; you have to switch higher commands

2. No mass-transfer of units by buying the HQ; this is something the Japanese in particular can exploit through Air HQs

Both sides should feel less of a PP crunch as time goes on

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RE: Restricted Units - 2/15/2013 7:12:08 PM

Justus2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

Thanks Bull...your clarity is appreciated. So, if I was playing a humanoid and it was a House Rule that I had to "pay" x political points to do something...say move Indian troops into Burma...how do I pay them?? As you said, if I am making them walk the computer doesn't ask for points.

The standard 'house rule' is that even though you could march them (system-wise) without changing HQ, you change the HQ anyway (to an unrestricted HQ), and pay the points, before marching them. (Doesn't really matter which unrestricted HQ you change them to)

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