OT ship in distress

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

OT ship in distress

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> OT ship in distress

Page: [1] 2 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

OT ship in distress - 2/20/2013 1:05:16 AM

oldman45

Posts: 2320
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Jacksonville Fl
Status: offline

As you all are aware we had a ship go dead in the water in the gulf of mexico. It left me wondering the events that had them with little water and no electricity.

I have never been on a cruise ship but don't they have emergency diesels? What little I could find out about the fire, that it was in the engineroom cause by a broken fuel oil line. The only time on a navy ship that we lost all power was when they had a switchboard fire and couldn't do anything until they did emergency repairs. So here is the multi million dollar ship, they have a fire in the engine room and loose everything????

I am hoping that some of you might have some insight on cruise ships and how they operate.

< Message edited by oldman45 -- 2/20/2013 1:08:49 AM >

_____________________________

Post #: 1

RE: OT ship in distress - 2/20/2013 4:14:09 AM

Paladin1dcs

Posts: 195
Joined: 7/7/2011
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline

I'm not an expert, having never served in the Navy or on a cruise ship, but from what I've heard from the news reports, the ship only had the single engine room and while it had back-up generators, they were also in the engine room and were damaged in the fire.

This is also not the first time that this style of ship has had this problem, at least that's what I've been told. The problem seems to come from the fact that the main fuel line comes directly over a high-heat area in the engine room and is known to constantly leak due to poor construction standards. Again, I'm not claiming special knowledge here or anything, just relaying what I've heard myself.

(in reply to oldman45)

Post #: 2

RE: OT ship in distress - 2/20/2013 4:59:58 AM

Cap Mandrake

Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline

Seems like losing propulsion is one thing but losing water pressure for the crappers is seriously bad PR.

By report, some passengers were sticking their hind quarters out of the portholes to disencumber themselves.

(in reply to oldman45)

Post #: 3

RE: OT ship in distress - 2/20/2013 5:39:46 AM

crsutton

Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

Yep, 6,000 people without plumbing is a recipe for disaster and a public health threat. Very poor design to not have a back up system. But back up generators are only going to do so much when you shovel 6,000 souls into a ship. A cruise ship has no real appeal to me for that reason

Here is a sea story for you. In 1977 I was on an old "Mariner" style boom type freighter and we lost the plant in the North Atlantic in the middle of February. It was in a major storm and cold as all get out. Now that was scary. They finally towed us into Halifax were we sat at the dock for about a week with no heat on the ship. The bastards would not even put us up at a hotel. We were headed to India. Never made it on that rusty old ship....She looked like this.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)

Post #: 4

RE: OT ship in distress - 2/20/2013 1:44:33 PM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paladin1dcs

I'm not an expert, having never served in the Navy or on a cruise ship, but from what I've heard from the news reports, the ship only had the single engine room and while it had back-up generators, they were also in the engine room and were damaged in the fire.

This is also not the first time that this style of ship has had this problem, at least that's what I've been told. The problem seems to come from the fact that the main fuel line comes directly over a high-heat area in the engine room and is known to constantly leak due to poor construction standards. Again, I'm not claiming special knowledge here or anything, just relaying what I've heard myself.

I've taken 7-8 cruises (forget) and the ships are well-built, but they aren't designed to be warships, nor are they crewed for extensive DC. They depend on automatic systems to fight a lot of casualties. In this case the fire suppresion systems worked perfectly. The fire was extinguished quickly and without injury.

My understanding of this ship's design (I cruised on her sister ship once, but no ER tours) is it had has two ERs, but both were somewhat damaged. The backup generators were working, but that's not main propulsion. They had lights, as seen in the video of them coming in, some very limited hotel services, comms, etc. Just no go-juice, and limited/no potable water outside bottled. That said, cruise ships are awash in bottled beverages, and they're never more than a day or two from help, which was the case here. This class has a helo deck on the bow for emergency evac or supply drops from memory. I think all modern cruise ships do. The Royal Caribbean ships I've been on do, as well as a crew pool and lounge area up on the bow main deck.

The USCG has done a prelim survey and has said that a pressurized oil return line burst over or near hot surfaces. This ship also had ER problems in the past year which were "repaired", but Carnival is the Wal-Mart of the industry and I'd bet that they were hoping to skate until the regular overhaul, and got hit. This will now cost the company many multiples of what an early overhaul would have. It's possible the ship will be scrapped, both for PR as well as uncleanable sanitation problems. Reports were sewage was running between interior bulkheads in passenger berthing.

Despite the media frenzy in the US nobody died, only one person had a medical emergency I believe. It was not a maritime disaster. Some people had to poop in bags and had their vacations ruined. Americnas have become real wimps.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 2/20/2013 1:55:14 PM >

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to Paladin1dcs)

Post #: 5

RE: OT ship in distress - 2/20/2013 1:51:09 PM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Seems like losing propulsion is one thing but losing water pressure for the crappers is seriously bad PR.

By report, some passengers were sticking their hind quarters out of the portholes to disencumber themselves.

The passenger cabin heads on these ships have vacuum systems that use almost no water, and that is salt water I think. When you flush it's best if you're standing up. The on-board comics constantly make jokes about the flushing; a lot of passengers like it because it makes them feel salty and real sailormen.

The problem with the heads wasn't water, it was power for the vacuum pumps. Moving thousands of gallons of raw sewage 1000 feet and over 17 stories of vertical takes a lot of ooomph. As for tanks, I don't know what cruise ships do with sewage when far out. I assume they dump it as warships do, but they might tank it home. There's so little water in each flush they might have capacity.

The portholes (really windows in my experience; large, rectangular, not round) don't open. But a lot of passengers had balcony rooms, and those you could evacuate from if you were willing to take a chance with the railings. You could certainly fling "stuff" over the rail into the ocean, where the fish poop already dontchaknow . . .

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)

Post #: 6

RE: OT ship in distress - 2/20/2013 2:57:56 PM

21pzr

Posts: 22
Joined: 2/11/2011
Status: offline

I am a mercant ship Chief Engineer who has worked on cruise vessels in the past (not Carnival).

The Triumph had two engine rooms, but they are not completely segregated as far as systems are concerned. Most cruise ships are this way, each engine room has 2-3 diesel generators, and nearly all ancillary systems required for the operation of the engines (water, air). The usual crossover is the fuel system, which is segregated between the two engine rooms, but all of the fuel handling equipment (centrifuges, heaters, pumps) are usually in one compartment (different from the engine rooms). A cruise ship "engine room" or engineering spaces, usually runs the length of the ship, and can be in as many as 12 separate watertight compartments.

The diesel generators generate electricity for the entire ship: lights, a/c, water, galleys, and propulsion as most cruise ships are diesel-electric propulsion. The Triumph had a leak on a fuel return line from one engine in the aft engine room. This sprayed hot (280*F) and high pressure (225psi) fuel around which must have contacted a hot surface and flashed.

I would have thought that the engineers could have isolated the fuel to the aft engine room, and restarted the forward generators to power the ship. If the propulsion motors are in the aft engine room, then propulsion was probably not possible, but hotel services could have been restored. It all depends on the design of the electrical system. The Carnival Splendor last year, also had two engine rooms, but the fire in one damaged the wiring from the other, so the redundency was out.

The previous problem the Triumph had was a problem with an alternator (the generator attached to the diesel), so one thing really did not have anything to do with the other.

The emergency generator is designed by international (IMO) regulations to provide power sufficient to safely disembark all passengers and crew. This means primarily: lights, steering, some ventilation, fire pumps, bilge pumps, and the like. The emergency power buss is 480v, while the main buss is 10,000v, so there is usually no way to feed back from the emergency to the main power to get things like toilets working.

On a lighter note, for those intending on cruising, you do not need to stand up when flushing a vacuum toilet, any more than you do on an airline toilet (see Mythbusters). While we have found nearly everything imaginable (and many not imaginable) down at the vacuum pumps (underwear, dinner napkins, towels, clothing, rings, etc), it will not suck you onto the bowl.

Cruise ships are equipped with advanced waste water treatment systems that cost millions. The effluent is tested by independent labs every couple of weeks, and is essentially clean, fresh water (I won't go along with the sales brochures and drink it however!). My ship processed 700-900 metric tons of waste water (black water from toilets, gray water from sinks, showers, galley water and laundry water) every day, in port or at sea. (That's about 200,000 gallons/day)

On the Triumph, guests were asked to do #1 in the showers, as the gray water system from them could be stored in sewage tanks, and this flows by gravity. #2 was done in biohazard waste bags, and deposited in the passageway, where crewmembers were standing by to take it for storage/disposal. Most of the "mess" was caused by guests not following instructions and continuing to fill non-flushing toilets with their deposits.

Some accounts say that there was power for movies in the lounges, running cold water, power to charge cell phones, and cooked meals. I've seen photos of hamburger dinners. Again, some claim that there was cooked food, but that after a long wait in line, there was only onions and buns left. I've heard that this was caused by the first in line piling up several burgers regardless of limits.

I've even heard of a passenger who saw several others sitting in deck chairs, with their cell phones on charge, and talking to the media about how horrible the conditions were. It just reinforces my opinion of the human race, that we are all out for ourselves, and will resort to the worst possible behavior in order to keep from being inconvenienced.

In response to Paladin: The fuel is hot and pressurized. The pipes are insulated and anti-spray tape is applied at every joint to minimize spray onto hot surfaces. Hot surfaces are insulated. These things happen, on cruise ships, merchant ships, and Navy ships (though the Navy no longer uses heavy oil, kerosene sprayed on a gas turbine results in the same problem). Could Carnival's maintenance have been better? Won't know until the investigation is over. Ship design is constantly evolving, and new regulations are constantly being generated to make things better.

Bill

(in reply to oldman45)

Post #: 7

RE: OT ship in distress - 2/20/2013 4:13:29 PM

crsutton

Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: 21pzr

I am a mercant ship Chief Engineer who has worked on cruise vessels in the past (not Carnival).

The Triumph had two engine rooms, but they are not completely segregated as far as systems are concerned. Most cruise ships are this way, each engine room has 2-3 diesel generators, and nearly all ancillary systems required for the operation of the engines (water, air). The usual crossover is the fuel system, which is segregated between the two engine rooms, but all of the fuel handling equipment (centrifuges, heaters, pumps) are usually in one compartment (different from the engine rooms). A cruise ship "engine room" or engineering spaces, usually runs the length of the ship, and can be in as many as 12 separate watertight compartments.

The diesel generators generate electricity for the entire ship: lights, a/c, water, galleys, and propulsion as most cruise ships are diesel-electric propulsion. The Triumph had a leak on a fuel return line from one engine in the aft engine room. This sprayed hot (280*F) and high pressure (225psi) fuel around which must have contacted a hot surface and flashed.

I would have thought that the engineers could have isolated the fuel to the aft engine room, and restarted the forward generators to power the ship. If the propulsion motors are in the aft engine room, then propulsion was probably not possible, but hotel services could have been restored. It all depends on the design of the electrical system. The Carnival Splendor last year, also had two engine rooms, but the fire in one damaged the wiring from the other, so the redundency was out.

The previous problem the Triumph had was a problem with an alternator (the generator attached to the diesel), so one thing really did not have anything to do with the other.

The emergency generator is designed by international (IMO) regulations to provide power sufficient to safely disembark all passengers and crew. This means primarily: lights, steering, some ventilation, fire pumps, bilge pumps, and the like. The emergency power buss is 480v, while the main buss is 10,000v, so there is usually no way to feed back from the emergency to the main power to get things like toilets working.

On a lighter note, for those intending on cruising, you do not need to stand up when flushing a vacuum toilet, any more than you do on an airline toilet (see Mythbusters). While we have found nearly everything imaginable (and many not imaginable) down at the vacuum pumps (underwear, dinner napkins, towels, clothing, rings, etc), it will not suck you onto the bowl.

Cruise ships are equipped with advanced waste water treatment systems that cost millions. The effluent is tested by independent labs every couple of weeks, and is essentially clean, fresh water (I won't go along with the sales brochures and drink it however!). My ship processed 700-900 metric tons of waste water (black water from toilets, gray water from sinks, showers, galley water and laundry water) every day, in port or at sea. (That's about 200,000 gallons/day)

On the Triumph, guests were asked to do #1 in the showers, as the gray water system from them could be stored in sewage tanks, and this flows by gravity. #2 was done in biohazard waste bags, and deposited in the passageway, where crewmembers were standing by to take it for storage/disposal. Most of the "mess" was caused by guests not following instructions and continuing to fill non-flushing toilets with their deposits.

Some accounts say that there was power for movies in the lounges, running cold water, power to charge cell phones, and cooked meals. I've seen photos of hamburger dinners. Again, some claim that there was cooked food, but that after a long wait in line, there was only onions and buns left. I've heard that this was caused by the first in line piling up several burgers regardless of limits.

I've even heard of a passenger who saw several others sitting in deck chairs, with their cell phones on charge, and talking to the media about how horrible the conditions were. It just reinforces my opinion of the human race, that we are all out for ourselves, and will resort to the worst possible behavior in order to keep from being inconvenienced.

In response to Paladin: The fuel is hot and pressurized. The pipes are insulated and anti-spray tape is applied at every joint to minimize spray onto hot surfaces. Hot surfaces are insulated. These things happen, on cruise ships, merchant ships, and Navy ships (though the Navy no longer uses heavy oil, kerosene sprayed on a gas turbine results in the same problem). Could Carnival's maintenance have been better? Won't know until the investigation is over. Ship design is constantly evolving, and new regulations are constantly being generated to make things better.

Bill

It has been a while since I have seen the deck of a ship. Do they no longer dump waste in the open sea or are they now required to pump it off while in Port? And out of curiosity do you belong to a Union?

< Message edited by crsutton -- 2/20/2013 4:14:36 PM >

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to 21pzr)

Post #: 8

RE: OT ship in distress - 2/20/2013 4:58:38 PM

21pzr

Posts: 22
Joined: 2/11/2011
Status: offline

Oh no! Since the advent of cell phone cameras, cruise ships have very large targets on them. Virtually nothing goes over the side. Paper and cardboard trash is incinerated onboard, all metal, glass, and plastic is compacted and landed. Incinerator ash is bagged and landed. All waste water, from whatever source, is treated before discharge. Depending on the systems, the age of the vessel, and it's trading route, ground food waste and solids from the waste water treatment plant may be pumped overboard, or incinerated. We even recycled the 1 metric ton of cooking oil generated every week to a refiner who made bio-diesel from it.

Just recently, the latest IMO regulations concerning garbage came into effect, for all ships, with special emphasis on "special areas" such as the Gulf of Mexico, or "Wider Carribbean Area". Now, not even ground food waste can be discharged in these areas unless the ship is underway. So now, companies are looking at bio-digester systems to eat the food waste before discharging the resulting waste water. Hoo boy, makes you yearn for the good old days.

I am currently a member of MEBA, but previously belonged to AMO, and also sailed non-union with offshore oil companies.

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 9

RE: OT ship in distress - 2/20/2013 5:30:52 PM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

Good to hear from the horse's mouth. The media got some right, a lot wrong.

FWIW, I know you can sit and flush. But a lot of first-time cruisers yell the first time, especially those who sit every time. You have to admit the noise is fairly loud in a small space. (The yelling too.)

And cruise ship passengers not following directions?!!! Never, ever happens!!

Your comments about overboard discharge are funny. I know it's a PR nightmare, and I agree that paper, etc. should not be dumped. But raw sewage is exactly what fish deposit in the ocean, less the T-P (also organic.) When I used to make SSBN patrols people would ask me what we did with the sewage for three months. When I told them we pumped it to sea they were horrified. I guess they thought we towed an empty sub behind us for trash purposes . . .

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to 21pzr)

Post #: 10

RE: OT ship in distress - 2/20/2013 6:18:07 PM

21pzr

Posts: 22
Joined: 2/11/2011
Status: offline

Bullwinkle;

Yes, you should start to see more articles about passengers describing awful, but not life threatening conditions. An interesting read is on People.com from a passenger, who spoke of guests hording food causing shortages. It sounded sort of like the Lord of the Flies! Passengers had great comments for the crew. On YouTube, there is a video of the upbeat crew meeting after the passengers debarked the Triumph, and the compliments from Carnival management for the work they did.

I just didn't want the mistaken idea out there that vacuum crappers were dangerous in any way! It is a bit unsettling to hear one the first time.

I know we all need to be green, but we used to refer to the food scraps going overboard as "fish food", and yes, Virginia, fish do actually poop in the ocean. I know the Navy gets lots of breaks from environmental regulations due to the combattant nature of the vessels, and the "what if the sewage treatment plant gets hit in combat" question, but I wonder if the SSBN's still do the garbage torpedoes? I'm sure the heads are still the pressurised bullet over the side as well.

Bill

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

Post #: 11

RE: OT ship in distress - 2/20/2013 6:30:51 PM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: 21pzr

I know we all need to be green, but we used to refer to the food scraps going overboard as "fish food", and yes, Virginia, fish do actually poop in the ocean. I know the Navy gets lots of breaks from environmental regulations due to the combattant nature of the vessels, and the "what if the sewage treatment plant gets hit in combat" question, but I wonder if the SSBN's still do the garbage torpedoes? I'm sure the heads are still the pressurised bullet over the side as well.

Bill

Ohio class have the same arrangement as the 688s did I think--pump grey water with the drain pump, and for black there are "chunky pumps." What they sound like. I think they are rotary screw pumps with wide apertures and the ability to break down and clean at sea if necessary. Of course, on a warship you don't get napkins in the heads as you do on cruise ships. At least not twice you don't. Diving the san tanks in drydock was a punishemnt reserved by the COB for those in his special hell.

I was pre-Ohio. Our black water san tanks had to be blown with LP air. Almost always at periscope depth, almost always on the mid-watch in case there was a slick. The heads were secured during the blow and signs were hung on the stalls since during the blow there's only a hand-operated ball valve between the stall and the tank. A couple of times every patrol somebody got up half-asleep and didn't regard the sign. Up in the control room on watch it sounded like a freight train, followed by expletives, followed by a chief parading the poor guy through the boat with TP hanging from his ears and crap in his hair, all the way back to shaft aley as an example "to encourage the others." It was hilarity at 0300.

One time we had a really obnoxious USAF officer riding on a strat weapons inspection team. A real tool. It's a little possible that the sign didn't get hung in the officer's head that night, and all non-USAF officers got told. Just a LITTLE possible mind you . . .

SSBNs still do TDU shots with all the garbage. Weighted cans shot vertically. There's a depth minimum, or was. We shot most in at least 15,000 feet of water. Classified was stowed on board in burn bags. Most of it was galley food waste.

Edit: That's my best info as of ten years ago. I think Ohios do a shorter patrol cycle now than in the Cold War, so they may stow more than before. Hard to stow wet garbage though.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 2/20/2013 6:35:51 PM >

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to 21pzr)

Post #: 12

RE: OT ship in distress - 2/20/2013 8:10:12 PM

oldman45

Posts: 2320
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Jacksonville Fl
Status: offline

Thanks 21pzr, answered a lot of questions.

_____________________________

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

Post #: 13

RE: OT ship in distress - 2/20/2013 11:37:25 PM

jcjordan

Posts: 1900
Joined: 6/27/2001
Status: offline

Not being a seaman but be around it through fishing & scuba diving, most of these large ships aren't made for long hauls as far as passengers being on board go. They're designed more to have people on board for a few days then dump them off for a few hrs to reload/cleanup for the next batch. Ships like the QM2 etc are designed for long term passengers hence why you see such problem when things like this happen on Carnival type ships.

(in reply to oldman45)

Post #: 14

RE: OT ship in distress - 2/21/2013 12:31:03 AM

Paladin1dcs

Posts: 195
Joined: 7/7/2011
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: 21pzr

I am a mercant ship Chief Engineer who has worked on cruise vessels in the past (not Carnival).

The Triumph had two engine rooms, but they are not completely segregated as far as systems are concerned. Most cruise ships are this way, each engine room has 2-3 diesel generators, and nearly all ancillary systems required for the operation of the engines (water, air). The usual crossover is the fuel system, which is segregated between the two engine rooms, but all of the fuel handling equipment (centrifuges, heaters, pumps) are usually in one compartment (different from the engine rooms). A cruise ship "engine room" or engineering spaces, usually runs the length of the ship, and can be in as many as 12 separate watertight compartments.

The diesel generators generate electricity for the entire ship: lights, a/c, water, galleys, and propulsion as most cruise ships are diesel-electric propulsion. The Triumph had a leak on a fuel return line from one engine in the aft engine room. This sprayed hot (280*F) and high pressure (225psi) fuel around which must have contacted a hot surface and flashed.

I would have thought that the engineers could have isolated the fuel to the aft engine room, and restarted the forward generators to power the ship. If the propulsion motors are in the aft engine room, then propulsion was probably not possible, but hotel services could have been restored. It all depends on the design of the electrical system. The Carnival Splendor last year, also had two engine rooms, but the fire in one damaged the wiring from the other, so the redundency was out.

The previous problem the Triumph had was a problem with an alternator (the generator attached to the diesel), so one thing really did not have anything to do with the other.

The emergency generator is designed by international (IMO) regulations to provide power sufficient to safely disembark all passengers and crew. This means primarily: lights, steering, some ventilation, fire pumps, bilge pumps, and the like. The emergency power buss is 480v, while the main buss is 10,000v, so there is usually no way to feed back from the emergency to the main power to get things like toilets working.

On a lighter note, for those intending on cruising, you do not need to stand up when flushing a vacuum toilet, any more than you do on an airline toilet (see Mythbusters). While we have found nearly everything imaginable (and many not imaginable) down at the vacuum pumps (underwear, dinner napkins, towels, clothing, rings, etc), it will not suck you onto the bowl.

Cruise ships are equipped with advanced waste water treatment systems that cost millions. The effluent is tested by independent labs every couple of weeks, and is essentially clean, fresh water (I won't go along with the sales brochures and drink it however!). My ship processed 700-900 metric tons of waste water (black water from toilets, gray water from sinks, showers, galley water and laundry water) every day, in port or at sea. (That's about 200,000 gallons/day)

On the Triumph, guests were asked to do #1 in the showers, as the gray water system from them could be stored in sewage tanks, and this flows by gravity. #2 was done in biohazard waste bags, and deposited in the passageway, where crewmembers were standing by to take it for storage/disposal. Most of the "mess" was caused by guests not following instructions and continuing to fill non-flushing toilets with their deposits.

Some accounts say that there was power for movies in the lounges, running cold water, power to charge cell phones, and cooked meals. I've seen photos of hamburger dinners. Again, some claim that there was cooked food, but that after a long wait in line, there was only onions and buns left. I've heard that this was caused by the first in line piling up several burgers regardless of limits.

I've even heard of a passenger who saw several others sitting in deck chairs, with their cell phones on charge, and talking to the media about how horrible the conditions were. It just reinforces my opinion of the human race, that we are all out for ourselves, and will resort to the worst possible behavior in order to keep from being inconvenienced.

In response to Paladin: The fuel is hot and pressurized. The pipes are insulated and anti-spray tape is applied at every joint to minimize spray onto hot surfaces. Hot surfaces are insulated. These things happen, on cruise ships, merchant ships, and Navy ships (though the Navy no longer uses heavy oil, kerosene sprayed on a gas turbine results in the same problem). Could Carnival's maintenance have been better? Won't know until the investigation is over. Ship design is constantly evolving, and new regulations are constantly being generated to make things better.

Bill

Thank you for shining some knowledge on this topic 21pzr, I was really starting to wonder just how close to the truth the media had gotten with this story. I had my suspicions that it was being embellished a bit and it seems that my suspicions were well founded.

(in reply to 21pzr)

Post #: 15

RE: OT ship in distress - 2/21/2013 2:17:30 PM

Cap Mandrake

Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline

In fairness to the pasengers, they paid for a luxury crusie and then were asked to **** in red plastic bags and then carry them out to the passageway. This may have be a source of discontent.

This is not the wilderness crowd.

Now, urinating in the shower is fun for guys but it a bit more of a challenge for women, plus there is no water to wash it down. Plus you have old folks and kids. And then Carnival offers a refund and 10% off on another trip??? What the hay? That was a PR disaster.

The business about the selfish people in the front of the line taking more than their fair share of hamburgers, sadly that is human nature. Unless we are united by kinship or some highly disciplined organization, we tend to revert to self preservation.

I was on a DC-10 flight to Hawaii. The first class passengers were going to get a hot meal on board and those of us in steerage were to pick up a plastic wrapped sandwich upon boarding the plane. They ran out of sandwiches beause the first class *-***** took some of the sandwiches.

(in reply to oldman45)

Post #: 16

RE: OT ship in distress - 2/21/2013 3:37:55 PM

21pzr

Posts: 22
Joined: 2/11/2011
Status: offline

I'm not saying that the guests were not discomfited. However, they were reimbursed for their cruise, given credit towards a future cruise, plus $500. While that may seem like a PR disaster, and I know that the usual amount is 100% on a future cruise, by contract Carnival didn't have to give them anything, not even the refund of the cruise ticket.

There was in fact running water nearly the entire time, just no hot water. As one passenger stated, the water, etc, on the decks was caused by those who did not manage their water well while the ship was listing, and the water overflowed the showers rather than going down the drain. There were also guests who decided "they were not going to poop in a red bag", and continued to use the toilets after specific instructions from the crew not to.

Did you see one interview with a child or elderly person? I know from experience that with the various venues out of service, the staff from them (restaurants, bars, shows) would be assigned to provide special attention to those that needed it.

Also, the long lines were for the hamburgers and hotdogs, while the service areas offering sandwiches, fruits and vegetables didn't have the long lines. Look at Cruise Critic for examples of blogs by passengers who want to set the record straight.

Yes it was not an optimal cruise, nor what they paid for, and it was not pleasant. But it was not a life threatening situation, and those that required medical attention were evacuated and received it. Yes, Carnival will take a hit to their reputation, but from my viewpoint, they did nearly everything right, especially the crew who put up with worse than the guests.

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)

Post #: 17

RE: OT ship in distress - 2/21/2013 4:35:28 PM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: 21pzr

I'm not saying that the guests were not discomfited. However, they were reimbursed for their cruise, given credit towards a future cruise, plus $500. While that may seem like a PR disaster, and I know that the usual amount is 100% on a future cruise, by contract Carnival didn't have to give them anything, not even the refund of the cruise ticket.

There was in fact running water nearly the entire time, just no hot water. As one passenger stated, the water, etc, on the decks was caused by those who did not manage their water well while the ship was listing, and the water overflowed the showers rather than going down the drain. There were also guests who decided "they were not going to poop in a red bag", and continued to use the toilets after specific instructions from the crew not to.

Did you see one interview with a child or elderly person? I know from experience that with the various venues out of service, the staff from them (restaurants, bars, shows) would be assigned to provide special attention to those that needed it.

Also, the long lines were for the hamburgers and hotdogs, while the service areas offering sandwiches, fruits and vegetables didn't have the long lines. Look at Cruise Critic for examples of blogs by passengers who want to set the record straight.

Yes it was not an optimal cruise, nor what they paid for, and it was not pleasant. But it was not a life threatening situation, and those that required medical attention were evacuated and received it. Yes, Carnival will take a hit to their reputation, but from my viewpoint, they did nearly everything right, especially the crew who put up with worse than the guests.

This has rapidly faded from the news cycle in part I think because the media found out it wasn't as bad as a few exhibitionists with working cell phones claimed.

One thing I think Carnival did very badly, and which IMO showed cowardice, was to have a Sr. VP of marketing meet the ship in Mobile and speak in an impromptu press conference on the pier that night. The guy looked scared out of his wits, he had at least one glowering handler at his elbow who hustled him away once the questions got thick, and most of all, he doesn't have "CEO" after his name. What a crass display of management over leadership. The CEO had days to schedule the corporate jet to get himself to Mobile.

CNN to my knowledge commented several times that evening that the CEO was notably absent from the whole affair.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 2/21/2013 4:37:01 PM >

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to 21pzr)

Post #: 18

RE: OT ship in distress - 2/21/2013 4:54:49 PM

Cap Mandrake

Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
This has rapidly faded from the news cycle in part I think because the media found out it wasn't as bad as a few exhibitionists with working cell phones claimed.

One thing I think Carnival did very badly, and which IMO showed cowardice, was to have a Sr. VP of marketing meet the ship in Mobile and speak in an impromptu press conference on the pier that night. The guy looked scared out of his wits, he had at least one glowering handler at his elbow who hustled him away once the questions got thick, and most of all, he doesn't have "CEO" after his name. What a crass display of management over leadership. The CEO had days to schedule the corporate jet to get himself to Mobile.

CNN to my knowledge commented several times that evening that the CEO was notably absent from the whole affair.

Yes, exactly. I don't fault the crew as long as there were no errors in the intial emergency response to the fire. After all, somebody had the job of picking up the red biohazard bags.

Perhaps there was a design problem in regard to the fuel line or in terms of redundancy of systems but the real disaster was a failure of management ashore. Arguably, a senor corporate executive should have helicoptered aboard and STAYED there. Let him **** in the red plastic bag and circualte among the passengers.

Their initial offer of refund and 10% discount on a next cruise was absurd.

There will be a whole course at business schools about how NOT to do things like Carnival. They just bumped BP off the pole position for corporate screw ups.

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

Post #: 19

RE: OT ship in distress - 2/21/2013 5:25:31 PM

Kwik E Mart

Posts: 2447
Joined: 7/22/2004
Status: offline

...i was on a Carnival cruise last year in which one of our engines quit half way to Jamaica...we diverted to Cozumel and you would have thought the passengers were about to mutiny...we were credited a couple hundred bucks for each ticket, which i thought was fair...maybe not so fair for the wedding party on board that was supposed to meet family and friends in Jamaica for their wedding

...IMO, the kind of people that go on these type cruises (for the most part) are exactly the ones you don't want to be around for an extended period of time in a situation like the one that occurred recently...

_____________________________

Kirk Lazarus: I know who I am. I'm the dude playin' the dude, disguised as another dude!
Ron Swanson: Clear alcohols are for rich women on diets.

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)

Post #: 20

RE: OT ship in distress - 2/21/2013 8:44:44 PM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart

...i was on a Carnival cruise last year in which one of our engines quit half way to Jamaica...we diverted to Cozumel and you would have thought the passengers were about to mutiny...we were credited a couple hundred bucks for each ticket, which i thought was fair...maybe not so fair for the wedding party on board that was supposed to meet family and friends in Jamaica for their wedding ...IMO, the kind of people that go on these type cruises (for the most part) are exactly the ones you don't want to be around for an extended period of time in a situation like the one that occurred recently...

I've cruised to Jamaica and Cozumel a couple of times, and Jamaica is no bargain of a port in my experience. Never got off the ship after the first visit. This was Ocho Rios.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to Kwik E Mart)

Post #: 21

RE: OT ship in distress - 2/21/2013 8:53:55 PM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart

...i was on a Carnival cruise last year in which one of our engines quit half way to Jamaica...we diverted to Cozumel and you would have thought the passengers were about to mutiny...we were credited a couple hundred bucks for each ticket, which i thought was fair...maybe not so fair for the wedding party on board that was supposed to meet family and friends in Jamaica for their wedding ...IMO, the kind of people that go on these type cruises (for the most part) are exactly the ones you don't want to be around for an extended period of time in a situation like the one that occurred recently...

The one and only Carnival cruise I went on (the trip was free due to Marriott points) I got so gassed out by the smoking the trip was pretty much a bust. I know they price for a somewhat downscale crowd, but come on. No-smoking areas aren't a new concept.

We had an elderly gent have a cardiac event which needed a medevac when we were near San Juan. The captian didn't want to go all the way in due to the schedule, so he tried to hover on the thrusters off-shore as the USCG sent a 32-footer out to take the litter with the gent strapped in. Seas were about four feet and they were haivng trouble getting near enough. Passengers on the rail, 6-8 stories up. (This was about 2130; it was dark, with a lot of lights from our ship on the attempt.) I look up the railing and I see this boozy redneck flick a butt over the rail, RIGHT ONTO THE COASTIES.

Some people don't deserve to live.

Never got the man off that way. We ended up hurtling into the pier near midnight at a full bell, the captain hovered there, put across a brow, never tied up so never had to clear customs. Stretcher, nurse go across to waiting ambulance. We spun on the thrusters and skedaddled. Made up the time overnight. Masterful seamanship. The guy lived.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to Kwik E Mart)

Post #: 22

RE: OT ship in distress - 2/21/2013 9:08:53 PM

witpqs

Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

What does "pit across a brow" mean, Moose?

_____________________________

Intel Monkey: https://sites.google.com/view/staffmonkeys/home

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

Post #: 23

RE: OT ship in distress - 2/21/2013 9:18:28 PM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

What does "pit across a brow" mean, Moose?

Put across a brow. A brow is a horizontal access ramp, what non-sailors call a "gangplank." This one as I recall was very rickety. Just some plywood, iron pipes for rails, and wheels on the ship end. Two dock hands wheeled it over the edge of the pier and onto the access hatch in the side of the ship. Nurse ran across it pushing gent in wheelchair. They pulled the brow back to the pier and we began to leave. Probably thirty seconds.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to witpqs)

Post #: 24

RE: OT ship in distress - 2/21/2013 9:54:12 PM

Canoerebel

Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline

What made the guy obviously a redneck? (PS, whatever he was, he oughta have his gonads forcibly removed for that little trick.)

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

Post #: 25

RE: OT ship in distress - 2/21/2013 9:58:58 PM

Kwik E Mart

Posts: 2447
Joined: 7/22/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart

...i was on a Carnival cruise last year in which one of our engines quit half way to Jamaica...we diverted to Cozumel and you would have thought the passengers were about to mutiny...we were credited a couple hundred bucks for each ticket, which i thought was fair...maybe not so fair for the wedding party on board that was supposed to meet family and friends in Jamaica for their wedding ...IMO, the kind of people that go on these type cruises (for the most part) are exactly the ones you don't want to be around for an extended period of time in a situation like the one that occurred recently...

The one and only Carnival cruise I went on (the trip was free due to Marriott points) I got so gassed out by the smoking the trip was pretty much a bust. I know they price for a somewhat downscale crowd, but come on. No-smoking areas aren't a new concept.

We had an elderly gent have a cardiac event which needed a medevac when we were near San Juan. The captian didn't want to go all the way in due to the schedule, so he tried to hover on the thrusters off-shore as the USCG sent a 32-footer out to take the litter with the gent strapped in. Seas were about four feet and they were haivng trouble getting near enough. Passengers on the rail, 6-8 stories up. (This was about 2130; it was dark, with a lot of lights from our ship on the attempt.) I look up the railing and I see this boozy redneck flick a butt over the rail, RIGHT ONTO THE COASTIES.

Some people don't deserve to live.

Never got the man off that way. We ended up hurtling into the pier near midnight at a full bell, the captain hovered there, put across a brow, never tied up so never had to clear customs. Stretcher, nurse go across to waiting ambulance. We spun on the thrusters and skedaddled. Made up the time overnight. Masterful seamanship. The guy lived.

...first Carnival cruise i went on was out of Jacksonville, FL with my wife and in-laws...i dubbed it the "Redneck Cruise" and i even had a song to go along with it...imagine the intro song from "Southpark"...

"Gonna go down to Jacksonville and git on a redneck cruise,
Gonna git on that Fascination and drink some redneck booze."

...there were more colorful verses

...redneck booze = 16 oz. budweisers in aluminum cans...during one fine summer afternoon in between stops, i was walking down a deck (not sure which) and passed a common room with a widescreen tv...no less than 30 "rednecks" watching NASCAR and drinking bud's...yeehaw!!!

PS - i'm a smoker, but i did try to find isolated areas to puff so as to not annoy too many people...

_____________________________

Kirk Lazarus: I know who I am. I'm the dude playin' the dude, disguised as another dude!
Ron Swanson: Clear alcohols are for rich women on diets.

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

Post #: 26

RE: OT ship in distress - 2/21/2013 10:06:34 PM

Canoerebel

Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline

Never mind.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 2/21/2013 10:07:40 PM >

(in reply to Kwik E Mart)

Post #: 27

RE: OT ship in distress - 2/21/2013 11:50:20 PM

tocaff

Posts: 4781
Joined: 10/12/2006
From: USA now in Brasil
Status: offline

Oh no! Not a never mind!

_____________________________

Todd

I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2080768

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 28

RE: OT ship in distress - 2/22/2013 12:20:40 AM

Cap Mandrake

Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Never mind.

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 29

RE: OT ship in distress - 2/22/2013 12:54:26 AM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

What made the guy obviously a redneck? (PS, whatever he was, he oughta have his gonads forcibly removed for that little trick.)

Haircut. Clothes. Accent. Behavior. You know, the usual.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 30

Page: [1] 2 next > >>

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> OT ship in distress

Page: [1] 2 next > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

0.672

Slitherine

OT ship in distress