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Recommend me operational wargame - 3/10/2013 9:23:15 PM

Kuokkanen

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I'm considering getting back to operational level wargames. In that front my most played favourite game was Battle Isle 3. I understand Panzer General serie, Advanced Strategic Command, and Panzer Corps have much in common with Battle Isle serie... but all of those are bit too abstract and simplified: closer to Chess than serious simulation of war. I've played bit of Panzer Corps demo and read some of the manual, and I really like about player having core force throughout the campaign with upgrade options. So now I'm looking for more realistic game on the same scale: map sizes less than 100 hexes per side with typically only tens of units per side. Otherwise I can welcome complex detailed information if game manual explains it all thoroughly. Do you have recommendations?

< Message edited by Matti Kuokkanen -- 3/10/2013 9:24:24 PM >

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RE: Recommend me operational wargame - 3/10/2013 10:54:56 PM

Lieste

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I'd suggest CmdOps if you aren't totally wedded to turn-based and hexes. It is accessible, yet deep and complex, with an emphasis on soft factors (command, morale, fatigue, supply, terrain and manoeuvre) rather than exclusively on equipment and 'troop quality'... you can easily 'throw away' a heavy tank Bn with TigerII by running them out of fuel deep behind enemy lines, or by getting them embroiled in a knife fight, with enemy infantry and tanks.

Larger scenarios apart from having a longer duration, are similar in complexity to smaller ones ~ despite the much larger unit count, as units follow 'plans' made by the player or AI, rather than each being moved manually each turn. Tasks to perform within the game tend to be forward planning, "real-time" analysis of intel picture as it changes and actions/reactions in response to opportunity/threats ~ often a 'good' plan will need little direct manipulation, and the tension comes from watching for the unwelcome/unexpected ~ other times a wholescale cancellation and replanning of the effort is needed to respond to the AI's threatening posture, or a 'bonus' opportunity.

There is a demo, and lots of helpful people in the subforum to answer questions. The manual explains most things, and there was a strategy guide for earlier versions (AA:HTTR, rather than CmdOps:HTTR, but most is still valid).

It is closer to a 'real' command experience than most titles that have been available, and more accessible than the few that have tried to break the same ground ~ plus the AI is fairly competent.

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RE: Recommend me operational wargame - 3/11/2013 12:27:27 AM

Wolfe1759

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Unity of Command

You can get a demo from here http://unityofcommand.net/

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RE: Recommend me operational wargame - 3/11/2013 6:02:38 AM

Kuokkanen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolfe

Unity of Command

I watched video. To me it seems to go to same category with Panzer General, Panzer Corps, and the rest.

I really want hexes and turns for now. And mixed combined arms formation, not tank destroyer battalions (referring to first edition of US Tank Destroyer Doctrine and aforementioned games here). I'm considering The Operational Art of War and Korsun Pocket series. What are differences between those two series, what else are there, and which one would be right for me?

[edit]
If there is a game where elite infantry platoon can slip through enemy trench line unnoticed and destroy supply depot (or just the AA weapons in order to make the job easier for bombers) in order to deny ammunition from defending enemy forces, tell me about it. To my understanding Finnish Defense Force and Red Army did that kind of thing quite often.

[edit2]
Scratch over Decisive Battles games (Korsun Pocket, Battles in Normandy, Battles in Italy). Way too many hexes and units in those.

< Message edited by Matti Kuokkanen -- 3/11/2013 7:05:17 AM >

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RE: Recommend me operational wargame - 3/11/2013 12:50:15 PM

Rtwfreak

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quote:

[edit2]
Scratch over Decisive Battles games (Korsun Pocket, Battles in Normandy, Battles in Italy). Way too many hexes and units in those.

You ain't just a little bit picky are you? You don't want beer & pretzels and you don't want hexes and lots of units. You have shrunk your choices down to minimal or none at best.

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RE: Recommend me operational wargame - 3/11/2013 2:19:23 PM

budd

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John tillers campaign series, small, med., and large scenarios. East front, west front, and the pacific all in one package.pick the size of your command in the campaign.

< Message edited by **budd** -- 3/11/2013 2:21:51 PM >

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RE: Recommend me operational wargame - 3/11/2013 6:09:44 PM

wodin

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Decisive Campaigns. TOAW 3 as their are loads of scenarios to suit. Or one of John Tillers games.

The platoon thing your asking about..that seems like a game you want that has different scales..which doesn't exist as far as I know, a platoon scale game with an operational one. Good idea though.

< Message edited by wodin -- 3/11/2013 6:15:21 PM >

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RE: Recommend me operational wargame - 3/11/2013 7:30:19 PM

Kuokkanen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rtwfreak

quote:

[edit2]
Scratch over Decisive Battles games (Korsun Pocket, Battles in Normandy, Battles in Italy). Way too many hexes and units in those.

You ain't just a little bit picky are you? You don't want beer & pretzels and you don't want hexes and lots of units. You have shrunk your choices down to minimal or none at best.

I'll rephrase: I don't want any monster game where map is whole frakkin' Western Front, Eastern Front, or Pacific Ocean. I want game where map is restricted only to Belgium, Karelia, or Guadalcanal. At that scale I desire for more realism, complexity and depth than what is in Panzer General and Panzer Corps series. What games deliver?

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RE: Recommend me operational wargame - 3/11/2013 8:44:44 PM

wodin

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As I said Decisive Campaigns..either game.

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RE: Recommend me operational wargame - 3/11/2013 11:41:54 PM

Wolfe1759

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How about War in the East with the Don to Danube expansion. Not for its huge campaign game but for the smaller operational scenarios of which (including the expansion) there are c20 of varying sizes and lengths to choose from.

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RE: Recommend me operational wargame - 3/12/2013 1:11:56 AM

Perturabo

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Command Ops

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RE: Recommend me operational wargame - 3/12/2013 1:35:49 AM

Ranger33

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I would second this, I'm pretty noobish at this scale of game and a bit scared of the main campaign, but I found the "Road to..." scenarios to be manageable and there are even smaller scenarios as well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolfe

How about War in the East with the Don to Danube expansion. Not for its huge campaign game but for the smaller operational scenarios of which (including the expansion) there are c20 of varying sizes and lengths to choose from.

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RE: Recommend me operational wargame - 3/12/2013 2:41:19 AM

Rtwfreak

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

As I said Decisive Campaigns..either game.

Did you miss the part where he said to "scratch" those games?

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RE: Recommend me operational wargame - 3/12/2013 4:35:27 AM

e_barkmann

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Decisive Battles were scratched. Althought they still should fit into the criteria as they are not whole front games, just battles.

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RE: Recommend me operational wargame - 3/12/2013 8:36:58 AM

wodin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rtwfreak

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

As I said Decisive Campaigns..either game.

Did you miss the part where he said to "scratch" those games?

As said above..different games mate.

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RE: Recommend me operational wargame - 3/12/2013 8:18:18 PM

Kuokkanen

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I have gone through some info and screenshots about some of the games. WITE seems to have the kind of detail I desire, and sizes of some scenario maps seem manageable even for me. Still could go little over my head.

TOAW3 seems to cover very broad area of wars and regions from American Civil War to Desert Storm and very much in between. I have read some reviews (years ago), and I remember game is very much scalable. How much exactly (min & max scales)?

I'm not sure about John Tiller's Campaign Serie... Game counters are platoons, I get that much. But more info please.

Decisive Campaigns looks like least realistic of the lot. Game action cards? No thanks! If I want do gas attack, I want do it with weapons, not with game card

Or have I misunderstood something in here...?

Finally: some comparisons between the games. Like how Operation Barbarossa differs between WITE, TOAW3, Decisive Campaigns: Case Blue, and JTCS. How much time does it take in a given game to play average game turn of average sized scenario? How thick are the manuals, and how thoroughly they explain the game?

< Message edited by Matti Kuokkanen -- 3/12/2013 8:20:15 PM >

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RE: Recommend me operational wargame - 3/12/2013 8:28:49 PM

wodin

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DC card system adds loads to the game..seriously my favourite aspect..it's manly about giving bonus to units if and when needed.

John Tillers games game counters are coys upto regiments not platoons.

Your best going to each forum to ask your questions to be honest.

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RE: Recommend me operational wargame - 3/12/2013 11:07:54 PM

Wolfe1759

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As Wodin said, I think the best way for you to compare the games on your shortlist is to visit the individual forums, read some of the AARs and ask questions if needed.

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RE: Recommend me operational wargame - 3/13/2013 5:37:52 AM

Kuokkanen

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One question more: which games come with printed manual?

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RE: Recommend me operational wargame - 3/13/2013 9:56:37 PM

Catch21

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen

One question more: which games come with printed manual?

Is this relevant these days? Most games here are electronic downloads or a premium for a CD/DVD and (sometimes (?)) paper materials. Either way they both come with pdf files- electronic medium, but if you really want paper, you can of course print them.

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RE: Recommend me operational wargame - 3/13/2013 9:57:56 PM

wodin

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No games come with a printed manual as far as I know..you have to print it yourself.

I was looking a your questions over at TOAW3..though what your looking for sounds amazing as far as I'm aware no games do what your after..like telling Stukas to target a certain unit with a counter. It's like you want a low unit density operational scale game (Operational by their very nature will have abstractions) but with detail within it to micromanage what happens within the counters on map. Great idea..I'd buy it, just don't think it exists.

Decisive Campaigns have the leader aspect you after played through with cards. The cards really add a sense of commanders and have impact on strategy. Seriously it fulfills more than any other game what your looking for.

As for manuals..no manual will really teach you a game..some a important to get the basics..but trail and error is how you truly learn..the best way I find is reading AAR's...read a load of AAR's then work out if it's the game for you.

< Message edited by wodin -- 3/13/2013 9:59:37 PM >

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RE: Recommend me operational wargame - 3/13/2013 10:19:56 PM

Catch21

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Per your request at http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3285611&mpage=1&key=� to post here (Post 6 & 7- TOAW Forum) and with only what I know:

...If I were looking again I'd buy one of the Command Ops series: Highway to the Reich/Battles from the Bulge. There's a demo available. It's made by a really useful Australian outfit- seems to me in terms of experience, thought, skill and most importantly relative to TOAW these days, ongoing development- Panther Games of 'Trial of Strength' fame (for those with longer memories), which I remember fondly as something of a quantum leap in EF board wargames. Command Ops seems similar in that regard (I just wish I had more time to review it further- I keep putting it on the long finger). Maybe someone has played both and could chime in here with an opinion.

Whatever you decide, I wish you well.

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RE: Recommend me operational wargame - 3/14/2013 6:41:33 PM

Kuokkanen

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Games discussed in here this far:

War in the East & expansion
Expensive monster game with few small scale scenarios I'm looking for. Too few, no sale.

Decisive Campaigns
Game action cards provide special attacks and other actions. Major turn off for me.

John Tiller's Campaign Serie
Tactical scale combat, not operational. No deal.

Unity of Command
Looks much like Panzer Corps and predecessors (Battle Isle and Panzer General series). Nope!

Command Ops
No hexes, no sale.

The Operational Art of War, Volume III
I have understood that manual lacks details which has led new players ask things around the forums, like what some numbers and colours mean. But great variety of different theaters, wars, scales, and presence of my home nation (Finland) are strong selling points. Bought & downloaded, now to install the game and RTFM!

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RE: Recommend me operational wargame - 3/14/2013 7:10:37 PM

wodin

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John Tillers aren't tactical..they are operational. Or you could push it and say Grand tactical I suppose, but really it's operational. JT Squad Battles is tactical.

Far as I'm aware DC cards don't give special attacks..you might get a bonus though a command card but no special attacks. Your dismissing the whole thing because of preconceived ideas.

I found TOAW3 combat and turn system convoluted to be honest. However it was probably the best choice for you.

< Message edited by wodin -- 3/14/2013 7:14:17 PM >

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RE: Recommend me operational wargame - 3/14/2013 7:58:09 PM

Kuokkanen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

John Tillers aren't tactical..they are operational.

Really?

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RE: Recommend me operational wargame - 3/15/2013 12:51:01 AM

HappyHedonist

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Really.

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RE: Recommend me operational wargame - 3/15/2013 12:58:17 AM

wodin

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Didn't know you where talking about that series..which is very old indeed..thought you where talking about his current games. Totally forgot about the series here..which isn't what comes to mind when people mention his games these days.

Thanks for pointing him the way HappyH.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

John Tillers aren't tactical..they are operational.

Really?

< Message edited by wodin -- 3/15/2013 12:59:01 AM >

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RE: Recommend me operational wargame - 3/15/2013 1:03:39 AM

shunwick

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin
I found TOAW3 combat and turn system convoluted to be honest.

Wodin,

Not really convoluted. You just have to keep in mind that you are dealing with time. Many people do seem confused about the TOAW turn system and there have been some really strange posts on non-TOAW forums but it is not that difficult to understand.

Best wishes,
Steve

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RE: Recommend me operational wargame - 3/15/2013 1:06:20 AM

wodin

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Was a very very long time ago i tried it out...just got abit confused..if the scale was my thing though I'd have stuck with it definitely.

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RE: Recommend me operational wargame - 3/15/2013 1:12:40 AM

shunwick

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen

The Operational Art of War, Volume III
I have understood that manual lacks details which has led new players ask things around the forums, like what some numbers and colours mean. But great variety of different theaters, wars, scales, and presence of my home nation (Finland) are strong selling points. Bought & downloaded, now to install the game and RTFM!

And read the What's New documentation. It is very important and details all the changes (and there are many) since the manual was created. Do not bother with the standard rules at all - they are not any kind of introduction to the advanced rules and the advanced rules are where all the fun is. Do not forget that the forum may be a little quiet at the moment but everyone checks in regularly and you will always get answers to questions you have about the game. It is quiet but it is not abandoned.

I would also add that it is probably best to get used to the scenario editor as soon as possible.

Best wishes,
Steve

< Message edited by shunwick -- 3/15/2013 1:28:53 AM >

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