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SBD Production - 3/3/2013 10:30:02 PM   
spence

 

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Status: offline 		In real life it was the Japanese who showed up for "THE DECISIVE BATTLE" (Midway) with fewer first line carrier aircraft than the Americans. The Japanese Player gets to correct that with his various production games. I don't have a problem with that.

However it seems to be the Allied Player who has to worry about having no replacements for his aircraft in this game because he's stuck with whatever the game gives him: 21 SBD-3s per month from start until April 1943.

584 SBD-3s were produced. The first were delivered to the Navy in March 1941. Production of the SBD-3 carried on until September 1942. At a rate of 21 a/c per month the game production rate doesn't seem too inaccurate up to that point (399 a/c produced at that rate - less than historical but within around 35% or so so lets call it accurate accounting for the aircraft which were sent to the European or Martian Theaters of Operation

In October 1942 the Navy took delivery of the first SBD-4. The only significant change appears to have been a change from a 12 Volt electrical system to a 24 Volt electrical system. From the standpoint of game statistics though the SBD-4 also suffered a loss of 5 kts of top speed. 780 SBD-4s were produced between October 1942 and April 1943: roughly 110 per month. That seems to exceed 21 by a fairly significant margin.

Although one make the argument that the (secret) Martian Theater of Operations sucked up a significant portion of the SBD-4 production the U.S. Navy has published on the web the number of SBDs of any type which were located in the Atlantic Fleet and that number seems to be less than 100 in the latter part of 1942 and early 1943.

For those inclined to argue that the New Zealanders, U.S. Marines and U.S. Army sucked up all those planes not included in the available a/c the following facts might be pertinent.
1) Every single SBD-3 operated by the New Zealanders was a recycled U.S.M.C. aircraft.
2) Other than the SBD-1s which were issued to the U.S.M.C. straight off the production line, the Navy recycled its "used up" a/c through the Marines.
3) The Army version (A-24, A-24A, A-24B)was produced at a separate production facility in Tulsa, OK.

The number of "new" SBD-3s/SBD-4s in the game seems to be about 900. The Navy's recycling of older and shot up/patched up SBD-3s makes an exact count a little difficult but the number can not be reconciled with reality unless the figures from the (secret) Martian Theater of Operations might be included.

If the game just couldn't stand another type of Allied a/c then perhaps a new factory could open in L.A. in October 1942 to produce a significantly increased number of SBD-3s. Or perhaps there could be a separate and slightly slower SBD-4 that comes on line in October 1942. Either way the SBD-3 replacement rate should not extend until April 1943 and should not remain at 21 for that entire time.

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RE: SBD Production - 3/3/2013 10:47:38 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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Status: offline 		Are you counting aircraft sent to new squadrons to man up the new construction carriers?

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RE: SBD Production - 3/3/2013 11:18:53 PM   
spence

 

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Status: offline 		Such new groups as were formed before May 1943 were SBD-3s were counted. After that they were SBD-5s or SB2Cs of various versions. The Atlantic Fleet got relatively few SBDs of any versions.
After all it had only one real aircraft carrier. The Atlantic Fleet CVEs got 9 SBDs each at first but then got TBFs. There were a few strays but they didn't amount to over 35% of total (SBD-3) production. Maybe they even got SBD-4s early because there was an imminent invasion (North Africa0 coming in November but overall the production plus replacement SBD-3s in the game don't come close to the actual production of SBD-3/SBD-4s which were mostly sent to the Pacific Fleet.

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RE: SBD Production - 3/4/2013 12:00:02 AM   
wdolson

 

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Status: offline 		The OOB is short of SBDs. You can do a mod to add the SBD-4, which is identical in stats to the SBD-3 and have a ramped up production rate.

The production rate for SBD-3s is historically accurate. The problem is this production rate continues into the SBD-4 time frame. Douglas significantly stepped up the production rate when they introduced the SBD-4.

Bill

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RE: SBD Production - 3/4/2013 12:57:51 AM   
spence

 

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Status: offline 		I CAN DO A MOD THAT VAPORIZES ALL OF JAPAN ON TURN 2 WITH DEATH RAYS FIRED BY B-17DS FLYING WITHIN 10 HEXES OF THE HOME ISLANDS. I would prefer a game that doesn't short the Allied Player.

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RE: SBD Production - 3/4/2013 1:19:24 AM   
Bearcat2

 

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Status: offline 		This comes up from time to time, I originally thought they were underrepresented, but it was pointed out that I was wrong. I originally posted every SBD by serial number and plant.


SBD-3
BuNo.4518 / 4568 - 751 / 801
BuNo.4569 / 4645 - 803 / 955 (odd numbers) - even numbers were A-24's -these were built at El Segundo Cal; not Tulsa. [all A-24{SBD3A} or A-24A's{SBD-4A} were built at El Sequendo -All A-24B's {SBD-5A} were built at Tulsa]
BuNo.4646 / 469 1- 957 / 1002
BuNo.2109
- Transferred to replace
crashed SBD-2. 1003
BuNo.03185 / 03384 - 1007 / 1206
BuNo.06492 / 06701 - mixed 1229 to 1516
Total: 0585 SBD -3's [of these, 43 were converted to Photo recon planes]
18 to RNZAF as NZ5001 / NZ5018.

168 A-24's built

SBD -4
BuNo.06702 / 06991 mixed 1547 to 2246
BuNo.10317 / 10806 mixed 2247 to 2970 780
Total: 0780 SBD 4's

27 to RNZAF as NZ5019 / NZ5045.

124 A-24A's built









< Message edited by Termite2 -- 3/4/2013 1:39:01 AM >

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RE: SBD Production - 3/4/2013 4:16:31 AM   
JeffroK


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A short while after the Army acquired its first A-24s, 90 similar aircraft were diverted to the Army from Navy contracts. They were delivered to the Army between July and October of 1942. Since they were originally ordered under the terms of a Navy contract, these aircraft were temporarily assigned the Navy designation of SBD-3A for record-keeping purposes. For some reason, the Army never referred to these planes as A-24s, but instead kept the original contract SBD-3A designation throughout their service life. However, they received Army serials 42-6682 to 42-6671

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RE: SBD Production - 3/4/2013 4:26:05 AM   
JeffroK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Are these missing??
A short while after the Army acquired its first A-24s, 90 similar aircraft were diverted to the Army from Navy contracts. They were delivered to the Army between July and October of 1942. Since they were originally ordered under the terms of a Navy contract, these aircraft were temporarily assigned the Navy designation of SBD-3A for record-keeping purposes. For some reason, the Army never referred to these planes as A-24s, but instead kept the original contract SBD-3A designation throughout their service life. However, they received Army serials 42-6682 to 42-6671


The problem is not "Do I get every possible aircraft that served in the PTO".

IMVHO it is "Why cant I react to the situation ingame. The JFB can!"

It might be you get more of this and less of something else, but it should be what you want, not what the US or UK could spare at the time.

Unless you can replicate the japanese air industry for the AFB, I cant see anything is going to change.

I would like to see changes to production numbers in the case where ships/convoys would deliver "100" aircraft at a time, ingame we get a trickle so where as IRL 2-3 Squadrons were formed immediately, ingame you fit them out 2-3 aircraft at a time (Big example is the arrival of Spitfire VB in OZ, takes weeks to equip 452, 457 RAAF & 54 RAF with them)

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RE: SBD Production - 3/4/2013 7:55:30 AM   
Blackhorse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

I CAN DO A MOD THAT VAPORIZES ALL OF JAPAN ON TURN 2 WITH DEATH RAYS FIRED BY B-17DS FLYING WITHIN 10 HEXES OF THE HOME ISLANDS.


I would like to play that mod.

As the Allied player.


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RE: SBD Production - 3/4/2013 9:33:59 AM   
Itdepends

 

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Status: offline 		Allowing replacement aircraft to be requisitioned in "lots" at the cost of political points would be one possible way to allow the Allies to react. e.g. put aircraft in stationary squadrons that can be released if the squadron is bought out.

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RE: SBD Production - 3/4/2013 10:02:07 AM   
wdolson

 

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Status: offline 		That would be an interesting way to introduce more airframes, but it would also allow the Allied player to train up a lot more pilots by keeping the ersatz units stateside and running pilots through them for training.

Bill

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RE: SBD Production - 3/4/2013 3:29:48 PM   
USSAmerica


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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

I CAN DO A MOD THAT VAPORIZES ALL OF JAPAN ON TURN 2 WITH DEATH RAYS FIRED BY B-17DS FLYING WITHIN 10 HEXES OF THE HOME ISLANDS. I would prefer a game that doesn't short the Allied Player.


What's preventing you from creating a mod for a game that doesn't short the Allied Player? Literally, changing 1 value for the monthly SBD production and save it.

(I do understand that this would not be nearly as much fun as ranting on the forums.... )

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RE: SBD Production - 3/4/2013 9:54:53 PM   
Itdepends

 

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Status: offline 		True I hadn't thought of that- perhaps squadrons could be nominally size 1 with a large number of reserve aircraft and only 1 pilot and allow them to be disbanded with pilots/planes to pools after they were bought out.

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RE: SBD Production - 3/4/2013 10:26:19 PM   
Dixie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

That would be an interesting way to introduce more airframes, but it would also allow the Allied player to train up a lot more pilots by keeping the ersatz units stateside and running pilots through them for training.

Bill


How about adding supply convoy units to deliver a chunk of aircraft on a certain date, for instance the stand up dates of the Australian Spitfire wing? Or does anyone know if it's possible to create some restricted supply convoys with aircraft in them ready to be paid for and disbanded to release the aircraft into the pools?

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RE: SBD Production - 3/4/2013 11:31:00 PM   
wdolson

 

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Status: offline 		You could have some units arrive and disband into the pool after a few turns.

The most elegant answer would be to add a new SBD model, the -4. Have it start production around Sep 42 with a higher rate than the -3 and end -3 production. Change the SBD units that arrive after that date to the -4 type. Someone can probably do some -4 art, but you can point to the -3 art if none is available.

I have the numbers here somewhere. I calculated out what monthly production should be compensating for the aircraft that arrive in units.

As far as I can tell, all -4 production ended up in the Pacific. The first -4s participated in Operation Torch, but all those aircraft that survived (virtually all) ended up transferred to the Pacific in one way or another. Atlantic inshore patrol squadrons did change to the SBD eventually, but what they had appear to be cast offs from the Pacific as the Navy converted to SB2Cs on the carriers. In any case the Atlantic inshore patrol squadrons continued to use Kingfishers until late 43 or 1944.

It wouldn't be all that tough.

Another thing that is off is the PBY-5/-5a situation. Production of the -5 had ended by late 42 and all production was for the -5a. Consolidated later made some more -5s, but all were for the British and Commonwealth. A few of these ended up in USN service because they got diverted, but only a handful.

Bill

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RE: SBD Production - 3/5/2013 12:04:10 AM   
Terminus


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RE: SBD Production - 3/5/2013 12:33:32 AM   
JeffroK


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Status: offline 		Means the devs did something right!

In reading up on some of this, there is a problem that the USN passed off some aircraft to the USMC, both the USAAF and USN stole from each others production runs, the USMC got some A24B's as they were land based only, the Enzeds got cast offs from someone plus Atlantic use, Training use etc etc etc.

It would be an interesting exercise to work out how to base convoys in the UK/East Coast and have to spend PP to release them for service?????


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RE: SBD Production - 3/5/2013 1:19:12 AM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

I maintain that AE is almost unique in gaming history in pissing off both sets of fanbois. It's really quite the feat we accomplished.

+1!

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RE: SBD Production - 3/5/2013 2:55:57 AM   
Sredni

 

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Status: offline 		Just a note here about something I find frustrating sometimes. The fragmented pools split between different models of the same plane. Like the sbd 3 and 4 talked about in this thread which were essentially identical and were probably used by air groups interchangeably in the war? It makes for more micro managing to have to juggle usage of 2 different planes that were really the same aircraft.

If sbd 4 is the same plane as the sbd 3 with just a different voltage I say lump them together and include the sbd4 production in the 3 numbers.

Ignore me if I'm talking crazy here, if the 4 is different enough to warrant a whole separate plane then so be it. I'm just saying that if they're functionally the same then let them be the same plane in game.

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RE: SBD Production - 3/5/2013 3:18:16 AM   
wdolson

 

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Status: offline 		The only difference between the -3 and -4 in game terms is the production levels. The -4 had the upgrade to the electrical system and also got a different propeller. Visually the -3 and -4 have a different propeller hub. The -3 came from the factory with a small hub spinner and had a few discreet settings. The -4 had no hub spinner and had the rounded housing common to most US radial engined aircraft. The -4 propeller was a constant speed prop.

SBD units frequently used a mix of aircraft. At Midway there were still some -2s serving on the carriers, but the bulk of SBDs were -3s. The changes throughout the production run from the -1 to -6 was not that dramatic compared to a lot of other aircraft. The SBD was always considered a stop gap aircraft and the Navy wasn't willing to put a lot of effort into major changes with the SB2C coming. The Marines got the first batch of SBDs because the Navy figured they wouldn't need them.

It was not unusual for units to use mixes of similar aircraft. For example, P-47 and P-51 units often had a mix of bubble top and "razorback" models on strength. Especially in the first half of 1944.

I just recalled a discussion with one of the data dev guys about this and I think he came up with another trick to provide the missing SBDs. I forget what it is, and I am not sure what happened to it.

Bill

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RE: SBD Production - 3/5/2013 5:46:01 AM   
wdolson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

I maintain that AE is almost unique in gaming history in pissing off both sets of fanbois. It's really quite the feat we accomplished.


If both sides are mad at you, you've probably hit the happy medium. Disgruntled medium?

Bill

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RE: SBD Production - 3/5/2013 11:50:55 AM   
spence

 

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Status: offline 		The production of the SBD-4 occurred during 7 months from October 42 until April 1943. 780 were produced. That's an average of 111 per month. That's a major change in rate of production from the 21 given in the game.

With the "recycling" of airframes that occurred with the USN, USMC, apparently USAAF, and New Zealanders it becomes difficult to just count airframes since the same airframe could show up in up to 3 of the categories previously mentioned. The overall number of SBD-3s (reinforcements & replacement a/c) in the game in units which show up before the advent of the SBD-5 is about 900 (included USN units but not USMC that show up on CVs within a month or two after May 43). That's nearly 500 shy of the combined production runs of the SBD-3 and SBD-4. The overwhelming majority of the SBD-3/4s were sent to the Pacific Theater: less than 100 to the Atlantic Fleet. There is a shortage of this a/c in the game.

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Post #: 22
RE: SBD Production - 3/6/2013 3:21:55 AM   
RyanCrierie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

However it seems to be the Allied Player who has to worry about having no replacements for his aircraft in this game because he's stuck with whatever the game gives him: 21 SBD-3s per month from start until April 1943.


Official Munitions Production of the United States: By Months, July 1 1940 – August 31, 1945; 1 May 1947 – pages 41 to 42:

Which I OCRed over at:

http://www.alternatewars.com/BBOW/Stats/SBD_Accept_Monthly_Det.htm

has a detailed listing of monthly acceptances by the USN of SBD Dauntlesses.

Production began of the SBD Dauntless in June 1940 with one plane accepted that month [page 63 hidden stat showing Jan-June 1940 aircraft production]

Numbers were:

SBD/A-24/A-24A
Douglas
El Segundo, CA (DE)

Jul-40 1
Aug-40 5
Sep-40 15
Oct-40 13
Nov-40 21
Dec-40 7
Jan-41 24
Feb-41 22
Mar-41 26
Apr-41 23
May-41 29
Jun-41 35
Jul-41 42
Aug-41 39
Sep-41 12
Oct-41 44
Nov-41 17
Dec-41 19
Jan-42 1
Feb-42 0
Mar-42 22
Apr-42 54
May-42 60
Jun-42 64
Jul-42 74
Aug-42 104
Sep-42 107
Oct-42 147
Nov-42 152
Dec-42 179
Jan-43 89
Feb-43 202
Mar-43 214
Apr-43 154
May-43 376
Jun-43 350
Jul-43 270
Aug-43 266
Sep-43 282
Oct-43 260
Nov-43 282
Dec-43 238
Jan-44 208
Feb-44 201
Mar-44 150
Apr-44 146
May-44 108
Jun-44 93
Jul-44 57
Aug-44 16

A-24B
Douglas
Tulsa, Oklahoma (DT)

Mar-43 1
Apr-43 8
May-43 19
Jun-43 35
Jul-43 65
Aug-43 75
Sep-43 103
Oct-43 81
Nov-43 114
Dec-43 114

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RE: SBD Production - 3/6/2013 7:53:21 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse


quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

I CAN DO A MOD THAT VAPORIZES ALL OF JAPAN ON TURN 2 WITH DEATH RAYS FIRED BY B-17DS FLYING WITHIN 10 HEXES OF THE HOME ISLANDS.


I would like to play that mod.

As the Allied player.




I'll play it as Japan. Now i don't have to worry about managing production and can focus on invading Australia on Turn one instead. What happens after Turn one doesn't matter.


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RE: SBD Production - 3/11/2013 4:28:35 AM   
JSG


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Status: offline 		Keep in mind some units back in CONUS (and not represented in the game) did all the type qualification and flight deck operations (landing mostly) training.
Such squadrons inevitably require a substantial portion of the aircraft.

I suppose there was also some use for SBDs in Atlantic Ocean locations.

Some more may be lost to ferrying or be used for development and testing projects.

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Post #: 25
RE: SBD Production - 3/11/2013 4:39:12 AM   
wdolson

 

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Status: offline 		Almost universally the CONUS training squadrons were equipped with older models aircraft pulled from combat. The land based Atlantic squadrons also equipped with surplus aircraft from the Pacific squadrons. They flew Kingfishers until there were enough spare SBDs to upgrade the squadrons.

The only new -4s which served in the Atlantic were used in Operation Torch. All were soon transferred to the Pacific. Soon after Torch SBDs were removed from all carriers in the Atlantic and Atlantic CAGs only had Wildcats and TBFs. Some CVEs had Hellcats by 1944, but SBDs without folding wings were not well suited to the Ranger or CVEs.

Bill

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Post #: 26
RE: SBD Production - 3/11/2013 11:56:59 AM   
spence

 

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quote:

Keep in mind some units back in CONUS (and not represented in the game) did all the type qualification and flight deck operations (landing mostly) training.
Such squadrons inevitably require a substantial portion of the aircraft.

I suppose there was also some use for SBDs in Atlantic Ocean locations.

Some more may be lost to ferrying or be used for development and testing projects.



The location of Naval Aircraft of all types was the subject of an official report about every 10 days (if not more) throughout WWII.

http://www.history.navy.mil/a-record/ww-ii/loc-ac/loc-ac.htm


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Post #: 27
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