Matrix Games Forums

 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

How to Fortify & Defend a Japanese Island properly?

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> The War Room >> How to Fortify & Defend a Japanese Island properly? Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
How to Fortify & Defend a Japanese Island properly? - 3/7/2013 4:54:48 PM   
leehunt27@bloomberg.net


Posts: 533
Joined: 9/6/2004
Status: offline 		hi,

Any thoughts, recommendations on the best mix of units to defend each Japanese island as the Allies turn to the offensive in 1943? Against say, one USMC division, supported by Seabees and a battalion of tanks on average? I know conditions can vary widely based on Allied bombardments, island sizes, air bombing, prepping etc, but all other things being equal, what do you feel you really need to make an island near bloody untakeable?

Obviously we'd all like to have 2 divisions, 2 tank brigades and a host of arty and engineers fortified at level 6 every island to stop the USMC cold on the beaches, but that's not realistic. I can make a few strongpoints like that, but there's probably a dozen islands i'd like to defend reasonably well with limited resources.

Let's say you have Guam at Fortification level 6, with 1 base unit, 1 construction engineer. How much Japanese AV fully prepped do you need to stop a 1 division amphibious landing? 2 division landing? What do you feel comfortable with given you still want to defend the other Marianas? What makes your opponent squeamish or decide to bypass?

I found out the hard way that a Japanese regiment (AV 116) recently landed on Canton Island, fully prepped at 100, but with fortifcation at only level 1- was easily steamrolled by a USMC division with a detachment of combat engineers. After only 2-3 days of bombardments.

So anyway, what do you deploy on your 6,000 max size island? Your 30,000 max size? On the unlimited islands? And what would you consider a sufficient "roadblock" force that will not survive but at least slow the Allies down, versus a nearly invincible defense?

Thanks!

(p.s. that's Mt Suribachi)




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by leehunt27@bloomberg.net -- 3/7/2013 4:58:29 PM >

_____________________________

John 21:25
Post #: 1
RE: How to Fortify & Defend a Japanese Island properly? - 3/7/2013 6:47:21 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline 		You are articulating the problem that faced the Japanese during the real war! The paradox is that if your fortify an island too much, the Allies will simply bypass it once they gain control of the seas! As an avid Allied player interested in saving electronic lives, I would recon the various island options open to me and take the path of least resistance knowing that you couldn't fortify them all! So in many ways you are caught (just like the real thing) between an island rock and an island hard spot! Hal

PS I know this doesn't answer your main question, but given all the variables I'm not sure there is an answer!

_____________________________


(in reply to leehunt27@bloomberg.net)
Post #: 2
RE: How to Fortify & Defend a Japanese Island properly? - 3/7/2013 8:47:33 PM   
leehunt27@bloomberg.net


Posts: 533
Joined: 9/6/2004
Status: offline 		True, true, but i did have some more specific questions given some assumptions:

ASSUMPTION: Allies are landing a division of USMC troops, a battalion of engineers and battalion of tanks on a island, say 6,000 max, 30,000 max, whatever. What do you need given different levels of fortification to stuff them at the beach? Now let's say its 2 divisions. Because I can't defend everywhere, but i can also hope to steer him clear of certain areas too (like Formosa)

_____________________________

John 21:25

(in reply to dr.hal)
Post #: 3
RE: How to Fortify & Defend a Japanese Island properly? - 3/8/2013 3:45:18 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		As the IJ, I know of no way to stop the allies from taking a base from '44 on if they want it.  No matter your forts or troop numbers, they can bomb any single base island into oblivion.  The only effective defense, and several players have shown this masterfully, is to have a ready reaction force to immediately re-take the base back from the allies.  PzB's AAR documents this several times.

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to leehunt27@bloomberg.net)
Post #: 4
RE: How to Fortify & Defend a Japanese Island properly? - 3/8/2013 5:08:39 AM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Fortifications and supply are key. You will lose eventually but a lot of Atoll invasions come down to the Allied player isolating the base and pounding it before invading. However, if you are dug in and have supplies, you can last a good while. A CD unit does not hurt but they are scarce for Japan.

But just like said above, it is a Naval War and once the Allied gain control of the sea-any base they desire is doomed.

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 5
RE: How to Fortify & Defend a Japanese Island properly? - 3/8/2013 7:24:09 AM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

As the IJ, I know of no way to stop the allies from taking a base from '44 on if they want it.  No matter your forts or troop numbers, they can bomb any single base island into oblivion.  The only effective defense, and several players have shown this masterfully, is to have a ready reaction force to immediately re-take the base back from the allies.  PzB's AAR documents this several times.



which only works if the Allied player never was able to take out the IJN though. Something very rarely happens IMO.

_____________________________


(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 6
RE: How to Fortify & Defend a Japanese Island properly? - 3/8/2013 2:53:19 PM   
Miller


Posts: 2226
Joined: 9/14/2004
From: Ashington, England.
Status: offline 		As a rule of thumb I go for 100-150AV behind 6 forts for most Cenpac Islands. Some are simply not worth defending at all.....well maybe apart from a 15AV SNLF Coy to prevent a cheap para capture. And dont build up the ports or airfields any higher than necessary either.

(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 7
RE: How to Fortify & Defend a Japanese Island properly? - 3/8/2013 6:42:44 PM   
Captain Cruft


Posts: 3652
Joined: 3/17/2004
From: England
Status: offline 		Good question. I tend to believe that somewhere like Tsushima is the only place you could actually make "invincible". This is partially because of the uber fortress there but also because there are lots of large airbases very close by to protect it.

Out in the Pacific you will always be doomed, it's just a delaying exercise.

(in reply to Miller)
Post #: 8
RE: How to Fortify & Defend a Japanese Island properly? - 3/12/2013 12:59:56 AM   
JSG


Posts: 45
Joined: 10/16/2012
Status: offline 		The real defence is to retain the ability to attack his supply convoys with torpedo bombers (G3M, G4M, P1Y), even if he bypassed your defences.

Some A6M can escort out to range 14 (preferably set to 100% escort, as they will rarely fly then and thus not have many ops losses despite the range 14 setting). Range 14 is enough to cover much of the Central Pacific with a half dozen island bases. Most of these (all between Iwo Jima and Tabitauea) are limited in their maximum garrison size, though.
An Air HQ and all else fine combat troops (with some AT weapons) should be the garrison.
G4M with A6M escort can take on convoys protected by one or two CVEs.

The Marianas can be defended with bigger forces, albeit not all of them. The opponent might grab some underdeveloped Marianas island and develop it into an air base (not necessarily a good B-29 base, though).

(in reply to Captain Cruft)
Post #: 9
RE: How to Fortify & Defend a Japanese Island properly? - 3/12/2013 3:37:59 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

As the IJ, I know of no way to stop the allies from taking a base from '44 on if they want it.  No matter your forts or troop numbers, they can bomb any single base island into oblivion.  The only effective defense, and several players have shown this masterfully, is to have a ready reaction force to immediately re-take the base back from the allies.  PzB's AAR documents this several times.



which only works if the Allied player never was able to take out the IJN though. Something very rarely happens IMO.

Correct. I never suggested it was easy.

Still, I stand by my initial statement: there is no way to deny the allies a target of their choosing from '44 on. They simply can bring too much force to bear on one spot. If you can react and retake it, this will delay the allied timetable considerably. And to reach the home islands by game end, they are on a tight timetable.

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 10
RE: How to Fortify & Defend a Japanese Island properly? - 3/12/2013 3:43:06 PM   
leehunt27@bloomberg.net


Posts: 533
Joined: 9/6/2004
Status: offline 		That's what i'm hoping for, to keep my opponent on a tight timetable. I know sometimes as the Allied player in WW2 games, you get excited with your overwhelming forces come 1944-1945, but unless you manage them aggressively and properly, it can sometimes be tough to do better than the historical results. If i can blunt his offensive just once or twice it could be the difference. I read that historically the invasion of Saipan was bumped up by 5 months because the other central Pacific islands rolled over so quickly. Then when the US hit Okinawa and Japan, the projections and fears over Operation Olympic and invading the home islands were greatly increased.

_____________________________

John 21:25

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 11
RE: How to Fortify & Defend a Japanese Island properly? - 3/12/2013 7:11:47 PM   
aphrochine


Posts: 189
Joined: 3/24/2008
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		Besides counter attack, there are some things that I think can vastly slow the allies if the IJ plans for them from the beginning. But I shall not share. Treason's not my bag.

_____________________________

VMF-422 fanboy
Grog Virgin fanboy

(in reply to leehunt27@bloomberg.net)
Post #: 12
RE: How to Fortify & Defend a Japanese Island properly? - 3/15/2013 8:04:43 PM   
leehunt27@bloomberg.net


Posts: 533
Joined: 9/6/2004
Status: offline 		hey now Aphrochine, that's not fair! no sharing?

_____________________________

John 21:25

(in reply to aphrochine)
Post #: 13
RE: How to Fortify & Defend a Japanese Island properly? - 3/16/2013 5:45:03 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: aphrochine

Besides counter attack, there are some things that I think can vastly slow the allies if the IJ plans for them from the beginning. But I shall not share. Treason's not my bag.

Well, if you ever do an AAR, we'll all be reading. So far, nothing much else has been shown to work ...

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to aphrochine)
Post #: 14
RE: How to Fortify & Defend a Japanese Island properly? - 3/16/2013 8:11:23 PM   
Crackaces


Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: aphrochine

Besides counter attack, there are some things that I think can vastly slow the allies if the IJ plans for them from the beginning. But I shall not share. Treason's not my bag.


Hmmmm .. why then post in this forum?

Although it is very difficult to defend a determined Allied offensive, the Allies have got to think .. "What now Olli!" after capturing an Atoll. Interlocking fighter CAP zones and patrol zones make building up and using the newly captured prize an adveneture. Then .. As a AFB the fear of counterattack has been the one constraint to my operation. I believe a force in being is critical to keeping this fear top of mind. That means using the KB judiciously to accompish strategic objctives and not willy-nilly on the counter-attack. The BB bombardment TF getting in and out at night is a real headache. This use of the IJN like this can delay the Allied advance one thrust at a time until the IJ lasts until '46.

I do propose that any unbalance in the IJ's MLR can be quickly ascertained and managed. The constant Intel about this unit located here and units moving on ships can provide valuable Intel to not only where the IJ are .. but where they cannot be .. So if the IJ decide to load one area more than another to make it impreganable .. soon the Allies will find that hole and exploit it .. That alone makes the IJ's task at hand difficult ..combined with the Allies ability to concentrate the tip of the spear and no particular base is absoletely impregnable .. but .. the Allies have to achieve auto-victory by 1945 and the IJ can make this a real chore ... that might be teh top of mind focus ...

_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

(in reply to aphrochine)
Post #: 15
RE: How to Fortify & Defend a Japanese Island properly? - 3/22/2013 1:37:49 PM   
leehunt27@bloomberg.net


Posts: 533
Joined: 9/6/2004
Status: offline 		I've wondered, due to Allied intel heroics, about preplanning divisions that are in reserve for islands to the front. Say-- 4th division plans for Tarawa while staying in reserve at Truk. That kind of thing. It can be fun as the Japanese player to preplan the entire Kwantung army for New Zealand at the beginning of the war and see what the Allied player does.

_____________________________

John 21:25

(in reply to Crackaces)
Post #: 16
RE: How to Fortify & Defend a Japanese Island properly? - 3/22/2013 4:20:20 PM   
Amoral

 

Posts: 378
Joined: 7/28/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leehunt27@bloomberg.net

I've wondered, due to Allied intel heroics, about preplanning divisions that are in reserve for islands to the front. Say-- 4th division plans for Tarawa while staying in reserve at Truk. That kind of thing. It can be fun as the Japanese player to preplan the entire Kwantung army for New Zealand at the beginning of the war and see what the Allied player does.


You can plan for three places at once with most LCUs. That will further baffle Allied intel, and give you more flexibility

  • Divide the unit
  • Have each element plan for a different location
  • When you buy out the unit for deployment, choose the element that has the correct planning, and rebuild around it. The reconstituted division will have the same planning.



< Message edited by Amoral -- 3/22/2013 4:21:13 PM >

(in reply to leehunt27@bloomberg.net)
Post #: 17
RE: How to Fortify & Defend a Japanese Island properly? - 3/22/2013 4:33:03 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Amoral

quote:

ORIGINAL: leehunt27@bloomberg.net

I've wondered, due to Allied intel heroics, about preplanning divisions that are in reserve for islands to the front. Say-- 4th division plans for Tarawa while staying in reserve at Truk. That kind of thing. It can be fun as the Japanese player to preplan the entire Kwantung army for New Zealand at the beginning of the war and see what the Allied player does.


You can plan for three places at once with most LCUs. That will further baffle Allied intel, and give you more flexibility

  • Divide the unit
  • Have each element plan for a different location
  • When you buy out the unit for deployment, choose the element that has the correct planning, and rebuild around it. The reconstituted division will have the same planning.





While this will certainly work, it will also almost certainly be considered "gamey" by a great many players. You might want to consider the ethical implications.

_____________________________


(in reply to Amoral)
Post #: 18
RE: How to Fortify & Defend a Japanese Island properly? - 3/22/2013 5:03:41 PM   
Quixote


Posts: 773
Joined: 8/14/2008
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Since you can only afford to buy out only one division per month or so (if you spend PPs on nothing else), "gamey" or not it's still not really necessary. There are enough divisions in Kwangtung at the start of the game that as Japan you can afford to give each one a different potential future objective. This allows the Japanese player to keep the Allies guessing despite intelligence reports while still giving the Japanese player some flexibility in planning. When Japan saves enough PPs and finally commits to its stage two objectives, they then just buy out the appropriately prepped divisions and leave the others in place. In a complete no rules free-for-all Amoral is right, but in most games it's probably not worth the return on investment.

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 19
RE: How to Fortify & Defend a Japanese Island properly? - 3/22/2013 5:09:48 PM   
Crackaces


Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: Amoral

quote:

ORIGINAL: leehunt27@bloomberg.net

I've wondered, due to Allied intel heroics, about preplanning divisions that are in reserve for islands to the front. Say-- 4th division plans for Tarawa while staying in reserve at Truk. That kind of thing. It can be fun as the Japanese player to preplan the entire Kwantung army for New Zealand at the beginning of the war and see what the Allied player does.


You can plan for three places at once with most LCUs. That will further baffle Allied intel, and give you more flexibility

  • Divide the unit
  • Have each element plan for a different location
  • When you buy out the unit for deployment, choose the element that has the correct planning, and rebuild around it. The reconstituted division will have the same planning.





While this will certainly work, it will also almost certainly be considered "gamey" by a great many players. You might want to consider the ethical implications.


Is it "Gamey" that it costs so many PP's to simply change HQ units even if those HQ's are unrestrcited? The game itself lends itself to "creative" solutions .... If in fact this is such an ethical issue and changes gameplay .. then I propsoe that the software should reset the preperation when the units are recombined ..


_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 20
RE: How to Fortify & Defend a Japanese Island properly? - 3/22/2013 6:49:13 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Amoral

quote:

ORIGINAL: leehunt27@bloomberg.net

I've wondered, due to Allied intel heroics, about preplanning divisions that are in reserve for islands to the front. Say-- 4th division plans for Tarawa while staying in reserve at Truk. That kind of thing. It can be fun as the Japanese player to preplan the entire Kwantung army for New Zealand at the beginning of the war and see what the Allied player does.


You can plan for three places at once with most LCUs. That will further baffle Allied intel, and give you more flexibility

  • Divide the unit
  • Have each element plan for a different location
  • When you buy out the unit for deployment, choose the element that has the correct planning, and rebuild around it. The reconstituted division will have the same planning.




I agree with Steve about some of the gameplay implications. I'd advise checking with your partner if you're considering this.

However, mechanically, would this even work? If I divide up a division into its A/B/C subcomponents and recombine them, how can I select the preparation of the "B" subunit for the greater recombined unit? Don't recombined units default to the "top" unit (i.e., the "A" subunit)?

_____________________________


(in reply to Amoral)
Post #: 21
RE: How to Fortify & Defend a Japanese Island properly? - 3/23/2013 2:26:37 PM   
leehunt27@bloomberg.net


Posts: 533
Joined: 9/6/2004
Status: offline 		I agree it would be something to discuss with your opponent, dividing and prepping, otherwise a bit gamey. But whole Kwantung units prepping for Auckland or Melbourne is no biggie. Also you can change them around as the game changes. The Russian troops may be wondering though why the Manchurian divisions are practicing amphibious landings on the Amur river with tropical uniforms :)

_____________________________

John 21:25

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 22
RE: How to Fortify & Defend a Japanese Island properly? - 3/23/2013 3:38:23 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		I don't see that as being gamey. For one thing, those are not fragments, they are wholly legitimate units, basically the game's way of splitting out the regiments in a division. Second of all, there are consequences. If the player divides and sets three different targets, 1 for real and 2 for deception, then recombines when all are at 100%, the full unit will only be at 33% prep for one of them. BTW, I don't know the rule on which target the game engine chooses to retain, but I do know that the combined prep is pro-rated.

_____________________________

Intel Monkey: https://sites.google.com/view/staffmonkeys/home

(in reply to leehunt27@bloomberg.net)
Post #: 23
RE: How to Fortify & Defend a Japanese Island properly? - 3/23/2013 3:53:57 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

I don't see that as being gamey. For one thing, those are not fragments, they are wholly legitimate units, basically the game's way of splitting out the regiments in a division. Second of all, there are consequences. If the player divides and sets three different targets, 1 for real and 2 for deception, then recombines when all are at 100%, the full unit will only be at 33% prep for one of them. BTW, I don't know the rule on which target the game engine chooses to retain, but I do know that the combined prep is pro-rated.


Dang interesting. Sounds pretty fair to me.

_____________________________


(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 24
RE: How to Fortify & Defend a Japanese Island properly? - 4/5/2013 10:01:33 PM   
worr

 

Posts: 901
Joined: 2/7/2001
Status: offline
quote:

You might want to consider the ethical implications.


That said to someone with "amoral" as his login. <g>

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 25
RE: How to Fortify & Defend a Japanese Island properly? - 4/5/2013 10:10:15 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: worr


quote:

You might want to consider the ethical implications.


That said to someone with "amoral" as his login. <g>




No sir, you misunderstand. "Amoral" is not , and has never been my login. The quote refers what an indivdual who goes by "Amoral" said about me. So when he insulted and demeaned me, I took his quote and put it up so people can see it. Then if they are curious , then can go back and see my postings and judge which of us is correct.

_____________________________


(in reply to worr)
Post #: 26
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> The War Room >> How to Fortify & Defend a Japanese Island properly? Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.781