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Why use Mission speed for Task Forces - 3/14/2013 5:23:39 AM

olorin42

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Mission speed is the default. We all know there are times to use Full Speed. Cruise Speed helps reduce incidental damage and is especially wise to use when getting that crippled ship back to port for repairs. So why use Mission Speed at all? By my observation, it's not faster than Cruise but causes more wear and tear - so why use Mission Speed at all?

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RE: Why use Mission speed for Task Forces - 3/14/2013 6:24:13 AM

jmalter

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I always use Cruise for TFs, w/ these exceptions:
- ASW/SubTFs on Patrol (Mission),
- Bomb/AmphTFs on/adj to their targets (Full),
- Surf/CVTFs expecting contact (Mission),
- TFs transiting between off-map ports (Full - there's no damage or fuel penalty when off-map),
- TFs that are running away (Full, such as early-war evacuees).

I understand Mission gives an advantage that switches the TF to Full when it's activated by Reaction Range. But I've come to value the reduced wear'n'tear of Cruise, especially for CS Convoys and long-distance voyages. I used to think that Cruise meant a lesser chance of Collisions, but since I've suffered several in the past 2 weeks, that might've been my imagination.

One thing I've noticed, if I create an ASWTF & set it to Cruise & Merge w/ a TF, it'll run to the merge at Full, incurring damage & fuel-use.

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RE: Why use Mission speed for Task Forces - 3/14/2013 8:44:54 AM

castor troy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: olorin42

Mission speed is the default. We all know there are times to use Full Speed. Cruise Speed helps reduce incidental damage and is especially wise to use when getting that crippled ship back to port for repairs. So why use Mission Speed at all? By my observation, it's not faster than Cruise but causes more wear and tear - so why use Mission Speed at all?

you got prove that mission speed cauces more wear and tear than cruise speed? I have been using mission speed for roughly 15000 turns so far (WITP included) and never have had a problem with it. I've got convoys going back and forth for a year without pause on mission speed and they don't even accumulate 15 points of sys damage. Now tell me what cruise speed would cause. To me, this is just rumor that I could never work out in any of my games.

< Message edited by castor troy -- 3/14/2013 8:46:39 AM >

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RE: Why use Mission speed for Task Forces - 3/14/2013 11:38:34 AM

LoBaron

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Just to clearify what 'Mission Speed' represents (I think this speed setting is often the source of confusion):

'Cruise speed': forces the TF to the cruise speed of the slowest ship in the TF, independent of the tactical situation.
'Full speed': forces the TF to the maximum speed of the slowest ship in the TF, independent of the tactical situation.

The obvious result is that a TF at 'Full Speed' setting:

- travels a further distance per movement phase
- consumes more fuel per distance travelled
- accumulates more damage per distance travelled

'Mission Speed' is NOT a separate forced speed setting (as compared to 'Full Speed' or 'Cruise Speed').

It just enables the TF to move at either full or cruise speed depending on the tactical situation.

As a rule of thumb, a TF with 'Mission Speed' setting always travels at cruise speed - this is what Castor Troy refers to, and why he does not
notice any average difference in wear&tear on the TFs with 'Mission Speed' setting as compared to 'Cruise Speed' setting - except if certain
conditions are met which trigger the TF to switch to full speed.

These conditions are dependend on a mix of TF type, retirement allowed/remain on station settings, threat settings, and reaction.

The conditions for a TF with 'Mission Speed' setting to switch over to 'Full Speed' can be found in a table in the WitP AE manual.
In addition, TF reaction always triggers full speed (except if manual TF 'Cruise Speed' setting overrides).

An example:
An Amphibious TF moves to an enemy base over a large distance, setting retirement allowed, 'Mission Speed', threat tolerance 'normal':

The whole journey the TF will move at cruise speed if there are no external reaciton triggers (like an enemy CV group moving into range
for example). Only for the final leg, which is the distance to destination that can be covered in a single full speed dash, the TF goes
to full speed and attempts to arrive at destination at the night movement phase. After unloading is moves away from the destination at
full speed again, and then resets to cruise speed for the rest of the journey home.

The advantage of the 'Mission Speed' setting (which I personally use very often) is that, as long as you know the triggers for full speed
depending on settigns, you can leave the TF alone and let it do its job without any further manual interaction.

This is getting much more important on 2 day turns, as you have no direct control over the TFs on every other turn.

Hope that helps.

< Message edited by LoBaron -- 3/14/2013 11:41:22 AM >

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RE: Why use Mission speed for Task Forces - 3/14/2013 12:35:46 PM

HansBolter

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There are also times when TFs will inexplicably take significant damage on a simple transit.

It may not be correct, but I have always attributed these to weather.

The OP may have expereinced inexplicable damage in a simple transit at mission speed , which may or may not be attributable to weather, and attributed it to the mission speed setting in search of an answer.

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RE: Why use Mission speed for Task Forces - 3/14/2013 12:47:33 PM

geofflambert

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I never change the speed setting from the default Mission Speed. If you go full speed for a whole day you're liable to not have any fuel left. Pick the right commander for the TF and let him do his thing.

I once had a large convoy arrive in port with terrible damage to all the ships, with substantial flotation damage to some. They didn't go through a minefield so I figured they encountered a Cyclone. Didn't the US lose some destroyers that way during the war?

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RE: Why use Mission speed for Task Forces - 3/14/2013 1:26:47 PM

Q-Ball

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

There are also times when TFs will inexplicably take significant damage on a simple transit.

It may not be correct, but I have always attributed these to weather.

The OP may have expereinced inexplicable damage in a simple transit at mission speed , which may or may not be attributable to weather, and attributed it to the mission speed setting in search of an answer.

That damage is often the result of collision. You can tell by looking at "Last hit by"

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RE: Why use Mission speed for Task Forces - 3/14/2013 1:34:26 PM

PaxMondo

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Playing as IJ, I almost always set Task forces to cruise ... my general rule is I can afford the ship lost better than I can the fuel use of full speed, particularly for xAK's, and whatever triggered the Full speed (SS or ac spotting) Full speed won't make much difference on the outcome anyway. I wish there was a way to make cruise the default when you form a TF ...

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RE: Why use Mission speed for Task Forces - 3/14/2013 1:42:27 PM

olorin42

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Great commentary - gotta love people that are willing to take the time to help.

I bet when I see increased damage from Mission speed it's really from them going to full speed because of a sub or air detection. Setting to Cruise avoids that ... at the risk of a sub or air attack because going to full speed might have avoided it.

Thanks all

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RE: Why use Mission speed for Task Forces - 3/14/2013 2:42:35 PM

CV 2

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I use mission speed almost exclusively. Cruise on a crippled ship, full speed when I have to get somewhere quick (1 day affair).

If you have your CS convoys going from or to a major port it will repair some while its there loading and fueling and other than collision damage will keep the incidental damage down.

I play Japs almost exclusively. I dont use a lot of fuel however. How do I do this? Simple, I keep most of my ships in port somewhere where they can get to where they need to be. They arent exposed to subs, they arent burning fuel, and most important the enemy doesnt know where they are.

I have lots of times had my entire fleet sitting in Japan repairing/upgrading and the allies not make a move within air search range of me because they didnt know where my stuff was BEFORE I sent them back.

I also make use of rails to move most of my fuel and supplies, and for that matter my troops as well. Yes, it takes longer to march a unit from Korea to Saigon and then move them by ship (shallow sea area) than it would be coming straight from Korea, but its safer from sub attacks and uses less fuel.

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RE: Why use Mission speed for Task Forces - 3/14/2013 2:52:52 PM

dr.hal

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The beauty of the game is that it TRIES to emulate reality (despite all the criticism to the contrary) and part of that is engine and other damage that simply happens due to no fault of the ship or the player, in other words "sh#T happens". This is all a reflection of a real transit. While crossing the Pacific on a DDG, we had a major engine failure and had to pull into Guam for two weeks (it was HELL I say!) and that just is how things go... so some damage you get on ships is a reflection of those random events.

To put my 2 cents in on the argument, I use mission most of the time. Like Castor, I too have seen no applicable difference in running at mission over cruise. And if something does "happen" such as a raiding AMC comes along, I want the ability of the TF to react THAT turn, not the turn after, as it might simply be too late!

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RE: Why use Mission speed for Task Forces - 3/14/2013 4:02:09 PM

castor troy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Playing as IJ, I almost always set Task forces to cruise ... my general rule is I can afford the ship lost better than I can the fuel use of full speed, particularly for xAK's, and whatever triggered the Full speed (SS or ac spotting) Full speed won't make much difference on the outcome anyway. I wish there was a way to make cruise the default when you form a TF ...

It kind of is default already because with mission speed 99.99% of the total distance travelled by your Navy will be at cruise speed. I wouldn't do all the additional clicks for 0.01%.

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RE: Why use Mission speed for Task Forces - 3/14/2013 6:08:06 PM

PaxMondo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Playing as IJ, I almost always set Task forces to cruise ... my general rule is I can afford the ship lost better than I can the fuel use of full speed, particularly for xAK's, and whatever triggered the Full speed (SS or ac spotting) Full speed won't make much difference on the outcome anyway. I wish there was a way to make cruise the default when you form a TF ...

It kind of is default already because with mission speed 99.99% of the total distance travelled by your Navy will be at cruise speed. I wouldn't do all the additional clicks for 0.01%.

Sorry, my testing contradicts this. Anytime a patrol flies overhead or a sub shows itself a TF will move to Full ... for allies, not an issue. For IJ where you are looking at every ton of fuel, it is different. I save ~20% on every convoy run in early '42. From mid '42 on, it rapidly approaches 50% simply due to increased patrol activity.

My opponent, Andy AI, is both very diligent with his patrols and uses most of his assets. Any point within Catalina range, which is impressive, is patroled and of course those Buka's are everywhere and countless.

YMMV.

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RE: Why use Mission speed for Task Forces - 3/14/2013 6:26:42 PM

HansBolter

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Do you get more hits from attacks by nav searching planes?

Seems you should if you are ordering your captains to stand firm as suitable targets by not engaging in avoidance.

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RE: Why use Mission speed for Task Forces - 3/14/2013 6:51:23 PM

geofflambert

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Not having played the Japanese, I don't know but can they do R&D and then build cargo and troop ships that can submerge during the day and then continue their journey at night?

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RE: Why use Mission speed for Task Forces - 3/14/2013 6:51:47 PM

PaxMondo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Do you get more hits from attacks by nav searching planes?

Seems you should if you are ordering your captains to stand firm as suitable targets by not engaging in avoidance.

Yes/no. As stated above, lower priority. For most IJ xAK classes they are either xAK cruise = 10, full=12 or cruise =12, full = 14. My experience is that is doesn't change the outcomes much. However, 12 ships going from cruise to full use 12 extra days of fuel .... for me, and this is just me, fuel is my primary consideration. I start with more xAK's than I need ... I am always short of fuel.

Again, YMMV.

< Message edited by PaxMondo -- 3/14/2013 6:53:22 PM >

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RE: Why use Mission speed for Task Forces - 3/14/2013 8:11:53 PM

HansBolter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Do you get more hits from attacks by nav searching planes?

Seems you should if you are ordering your captains to stand firm as suitable targets by not engaging in avoidance.

Yes/no. As stated above, lower priority. For most IJ xAK classes they are either xAK cruise = 10, full=12 or cruise =12, full = 14. My experience is that is doesn't change the outcomes much. However, 12 ships going from cruise to full use 12 extra days of fuel .... for me, and this is just me, fuel is my primary consideration. I start with more xAK's than I need ... I am always short of fuel.

Again, YMMV.

I can see where there wouldn't be much avoidance difference betwen 10 and 12 knots.

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RE: Why use Mission speed for Task Forces - 3/14/2013 9:02:34 PM

bradfordkay

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Do you get more hits from attacks by nav searching planes?

Seems you should if you are ordering your captains to stand firm as suitable targets by not engaging in avoidance.

The more ships he has sunk, the less fuel his navy needs...

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RE: Why use Mission speed for Task Forces - 3/14/2013 10:00:21 PM

LoBaron

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FWIIW, in general I find use for cruise speed and mission speed setting. I close to never use full speed as it is usually suicidal to fuel consumption on 2 day turns.

Cruise speed mostly for CS and other large convoys, combat ships in transit in low threat areas, damaged ships/cripples, ASW patrolling ingress routes
that do not require reaction settings, lead TFs of invasion groups until it is time for the final pre invasion prep 1-2 days out.

Mission speed for combat TFs with reaction settings, CV groups, SAGs on combat mission, subs, Fast Transport TFs.

Still varies from situation to situation, but thats pretty much it.

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RE: Why use Mission speed for Task Forces - 3/15/2013 3:09:45 AM

jmalter

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LoBaron runs his stuff close to the way I do, I use 2-day turns as well. LoBaron, I was looking for that 'threat table' in the manual last night, couldn't find it, can you give me a Ch# or page#?

I suspect that castor troy has a better tolerance for ships' minor damage than I do, his approach might well be more pragmatic in game terms. I almost never let an AK leave port w/ more than 1 sys damage! For ships in combat-type TFs, 5 damage-points is about as high as I can tolerate before getting antsy, usually this corresponds to the TF completing its mission, or a CVTF running down to >30% 'missions remaining'.

what level of minor damage seems tolerable to you guys? do you prefer to create a new TF using only clean-skins, or do you feel that a given level of minor (or even major) damage is tolerable? do IJ players accept more damage than Allied players?

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RE: Why use Mission speed for Task Forces - 3/15/2013 3:36:43 AM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: olorin42

Mission speed is the default. We all know there are times to use Full Speed. Cruise Speed helps reduce incidental damage and is especially wise to use when getting that crippled ship back to port for repairs. So why use Mission Speed at all? By my observation, it's not faster than Cruise but causes more wear and tear - so why use Mission Speed at all?

you got prove that mission speed cauces more wear and tear than cruise speed? I have been using mission speed for roughly 15000 turns so far (WITP included) and never have had a problem with it. I've got convoys going back and forth for a year without pause on mission speed and they don't even accumulate 15 points of sys damage. Now tell me what cruise speed would cause. To me, this is just rumor that I could never work out in any of my games.

I am with CT, three years of playing tells me that mission speed is fine and I use it 95% of the time. I should say that this is playing as the Allies. If you can save a little fuel as the Japanese then I suspect it is worth it.

< Message edited by crsutton -- 3/15/2013 3:40:47 AM >

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RE: Why use Mission speed for Task Forces - 3/15/2013 8:33:38 AM

castor troy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Playing as IJ, I almost always set Task forces to cruise ... my general rule is I can afford the ship lost better than I can the fuel use of full speed, particularly for xAK's, and whatever triggered the Full speed (SS or ac spotting) Full speed won't make much difference on the outcome anyway. I wish there was a way to make cruise the default when you form a TF ...

It kind of is default already because with mission speed 99.99% of the total distance travelled by your Navy will be at cruise speed. I wouldn't do all the additional clicks for 0.01%.

Sorry, my testing contradicts this. Anytime a patrol flies overhead or a sub shows itself a TF will move to Full ... for allies, not an issue. For IJ where you are looking at every ton of fuel, it is different. I save ~20% on every convoy run in early '42. From mid '42 on, it rapidly approaches 50% simply due to increased patrol activity.

My opponent, Andy AI, is both very diligent with his patrols and uses most of his assets. Any point within Catalina range, which is impressive, is patroled and of course those Buka's are everywhere and countless.

YMMV.

A TF sure doesn't go on full speed when spotted by a patrol because that would mean all my surface combat or carrier TF would warp around the map. Same for my subs, they would warp because that would mean moving at 6 hexes instead of 3 per phase and that would be more than notable. My fast SC TFs don't show up 18 hexes away because they were spotted and sprint out at full speed, they just move on at the usual 4 hexes per phase. It just doesn't matter. The only time your TFs default from mission to full speed is when they actually should do that, when they are in position to start the bombardment run, an attempt to attack enemy shipping or reacting to other carriers for example.

And where do you get the 50% fuel increase from? Because of patrols spotting your convoys? Wow

< Message edited by castor troy -- 3/15/2013 8:38:49 AM >

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RE: Why use Mission speed for Task Forces - 3/15/2013 9:19:26 AM

LoBaron

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TF reaction is not triggered by enemy subs or patrol planes AFAIK.
�
The only influence a patrol plane has on fuel consumptions is when a plane spots/attacks a sub.
The game simulates the subs evasive mvr and crash dive by upping the subs fuel consumption
(probably by calculating full speed consumption, but it might even be a separate calculation).
�
Besides TF/mission specific triggers, only the presence of spotted enemy surface combatants, or the
change of air superiority value in the face of enemy CVs triggers a full speed reaction away from the
threat (with 'Mission Speed' setting). You will be notified of this by a message when watching the turn,
and it is logged in the op report.
�
As for minor dmg tolerance, it very much depends on general ship availability, strategic/tactical
situation and resulting mission urgency. I do not disband TFs, but usually exchange ships with certain
amounts of damage.
For long range transports, since I play Allies, I got an overabundance. There, as a rule of thumb,
I never exceed 5sys/2eng dmg (to avoid potential convoy slowdown), and always repair ships with flotation
dmg.
For combat ships it varies very much. When preparing large ops though I will always attempt to reduce
damage to 0 on all ships to ensure maximum mission endurance.
When things look grave and there are important missions to accomplish and timing is critical, I have no
issue to deploy combat ships with sys damage > 10 and eng dmg > 5 though.
�
As with all things in WitP there is no standard rule. The situation dictates what risks you need to take.
�
�
@jmalter: I do not have the manual with me right now, but I will come back to you on this.
It is not really a threat table, but a table describing TF behaviour depending on mission type and
retirement allowed/remain on station settings.

< Message edited by LoBaron -- 3/15/2013 9:21:56 AM >

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RE: Why use Mission speed for Task Forces - 3/15/2013 9:30:55 AM

Chris21wen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: olorin42

Mission speed is the default. We all know there are times to use Full Speed. Cruise Speed helps reduce incidental damage and is especially wise to use when getting that crippled ship back to port for repairs. So why use Mission Speed at all? By my observation, it's not faster than Cruise but causes more wear and tear - so why use Mission Speed at all?

Actually it isn't for all TF, it's cruise for CS missions.

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RE: Why use Mission speed for Task Forces - 3/15/2013 1:26:43 PM

PaxMondo

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He-He. Guys, y'all play allies too much with way too much intel. The only time I know I've been spotted by a patrol or a sub is when they shoot at me. Ergo, every time I am spotted, my TF's react. And those d____ Dorniers of Andy's are not only deadly, they shoot all the time.

Castor, I do simple math. Miri oil run to the coast is a 3 day run. If my TF reacts in a phase it will use 3x the fuel. 6 phases of fuel versus 9 phases of fuel for the same run = 50% increase for me. You can do your math however you like. I keep mine simple.

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RE: Why use Mission speed for Task Forces - 3/15/2013 1:29:57 PM

PaxMondo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Do you get more hits from attacks by nav searching planes?

Seems you should if you are ordering your captains to stand firm as suitable targets by not engaging in avoidance.

The more ships he has sunk, the less fuel his navy needs...

Well ... maybe.

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RE: Why use Mission speed for Task Forces - 3/15/2013 1:53:59 PM

HansBolter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

He-He. Guys, y'all play allies too much with way too much intel. The only time I know I've been spotted by a patrol or a sub is when they shoot at me. Ergo, every time I am spotted, my TF's react. And those d____ Dorniers of Andy's are not only deadly, they shoot all the time.

Castor, I do simple math. Miri oil run to the coast is a 3 day run. If my TF reacts in a phase it will use 3x the fuel. 6 phases of fuel versus 9 phases of fuel for the same run = 50% increase for me. You can do your math however you like. I keep mine simple.

Are the opposing sides really structured so differently?

For the Allies The entire first half of both air phases is full of nothing but reports of spotting and being spotted.

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RE: Why use Mission speed for Task Forces - 3/15/2013 2:12:26 PM

castor troy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

He-He. Guys, y'all play allies too much with way too much intel. The only time I know I've been spotted by a patrol or a sub is when they shoot at me. Ergo, every time I am spotted, my TF's react. And those d____ Dorniers of Andy's are not only deadly, they shoot all the time.

Castor, I do simple math. Miri oil run to the coast is a 3 day run. If my TF reacts in a phase it will use 3x the fuel. 6 phases of fuel versus 9 phases of fuel for the same run = 50% increase for me. You can do your math however you like. I keep mine simple.

yes, too simple as that just doesn't show the picture of your whole Navy when using setting "cruise" or "mission" speed. As said above, your TFs do nothing when being spotted by enemy patrols, they just move on as if nothing else happened. And you get the same messages as the Allied when your TFs are spotted. Saying cruise safes 50% of your Navy's fuel consumption compared to mission speed is simply not true, sorry.

It would only be true if all your Navy would move at full speed all the time and that just doesn't happen at all when being put on mission speed. I dare to say you would not even notice the difference at all, no matter how easy or difficult you do your math.

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RE: Why use Mission speed for Task Forces - 3/16/2013 5:32:01 PM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

He-He. Guys, y'all play allies too much with way too much intel. The only time I know I've been spotted by a patrol or a sub is when they shoot at me. Ergo, every time I am spotted, my TF's react. And those d____ Dorniers of Andy's are not only deadly, they shoot all the time.

Castor, I do simple math. Miri oil run to the coast is a 3 day run. If my TF reacts in a phase it will use 3x the fuel. 6 phases of fuel versus 9 phases of fuel for the same run = 50% increase for me. You can do your math however you like. I keep mine simple.

We Allied players never worry about gas. In fact we our surplus to power our ice cream makers and golf carts...

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(in reply to PaxMondo)

Post #: 29

RE: Why use Mission speed for Task Forces - 3/16/2013 5:35:14 PM

PaxMondo

Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
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DELETED.

Not worth the reply ....

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Pax

(in reply to castor troy)

Post #: 30