Slitherine

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Originally posted by Scipio Africanus: An advantage in muzzle velocity (in a large caliber gun) or optics at this range is miniscule- 500 yards is extreme short range in a tank. ... The optics and gun in the Tiger give it an advantage at 3000 yards, not 500, just as the avionics and weapons on the F-4 give it an advantage at 3000 yards, not 500, thus a similar kill ratio. One should not expect 5-1 kill ratios at 500 yards, a range at which most tanks have a degree of parity.

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pg. 140 With over 1,300 Tigers and nearly 6,000 Panthers produced by the end of the war, their effect on Allied armor was considerable - especially when it usually took at least five Shermans to knock out one Tiger or Panther! In addition, one should perhaps consider such heavyweights as the Tiger II, the Konigstiger, 68 tons of super-heavy tank, mounting a long barrelled and even more deadly 88mm gun. The King Tiger could eliminate all of it's opponents with ease, so it is fortunate that the Germans were only able to produce 489 of these battle winners, which did not enter combat service until June 1944.

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Actually, it's the range 1000-1500m (1100-1650y) that matters, after that even the mighty 88mm gun wouldn't penetrate a T34.

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"In tank versus tank combat, the 8.8 cm KwK.43 gun is effective in destroying all of the types of enemy tanks, including the Stalin, at ranges up to 1500 meters. Under favorable conditions, the T-34 and T-43 tanks can also be knocked out at ranges up to 3000 meters. As previously experienced in the West with Allied tanks, it was often observed that the Russian tanks declined to fight Tigers or turned and fled after their first tank was knocked out. The same thing applies to the Russian assault guns as to the Stalin tanks. Kills at over 1500 meters have not yet occurred."

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The 88mm KwK 43 L/71 was a very accurate gun capable of first-round hits at ranges exceeding 1000 meters. The estimated accuracy is given as the probability (in percentage) of hitting a target 2m high and 2.5m wide, representing the target presented by the front of an opposing tank. These tables are based on the assumption that the actual range to the target has been determined. Firing on the practice range was more accurate than was normally obtained due to the stress of combat conditions. This difference is shown in the tables below by the figures in brackets. The effectiveness of firepower that can be delivered by the main gun is dependant upon the penetration ability of the armor piercing rounds, inherent accuracy of the gun, characteristics of the gun sights and ability to get quickly and accurately on target. Penetration statistics for armor plate were expressed in terms of the thickness in mm that could be penetrated when laid back at an angle from the vertical of 30°. The penetrating ability of armor piercing rounds fired from the 88mm KwK 43 L/71 was determined by tests conducted at firing ranges which proved that the results shown in the tables below could be achieved. MAIN GUN DATA PLEASE NOTE: 88mm KwK 36 L/56 : main gun installed on the Tiger I 88mm KwK 43 L/71 : main gun installed on the Tiger II. 1. ACCURACY: Gun 88mm KwK 36 L/56 88mm KwK 43 L/71 Ammunition Pzgr. 39 Pzgr. 40 Gr.39 HL Pzgr. 39/43 Pzgr. 40/43 Range 500m 100 (100) 100 (100) 100 (98) 100 (100) 100 (100) 1000m 100 (93) 99 (80) 94 (62) 100 (85) 100 (100) 1500m 98 (74) 89 (52) 72 (34) 95 (61) 97 (68) 2000m 87 (50) 71 (31) 52 (20) 85 (43) 89 (47) 2500m 71 (31) 55 (19) 74 (30) 78 (34) 3000m 53 (19) 61 (23) 66 (25) 3500m 51 (17) 4000m 42 (13) 2. ARMOR PENETRATION: Gun 88mm KwK 36 L/56 88mm KwK 43 L/71 Ammunition Type Pzgr.39 Pzgr.40 Gr.39HL Pzgr.39/43 Pzgr.40/43 Shell Weight 10.2 Kg 7.3 Kg 7.65 Kg 10.2 Kg 7.3 Kg Initial Velocity 773 m/s 930 m/s 600 m/s 1000 m/s 1130 m/s Range 100m 120mm 170mm 90mm 202mm 237mm 500m 110mm 155mm 90mm 185mm 217mm 1000m 100mm 138mm 90mm 165mm 197mm 1500m 91mm 122mm 90mm 148mm 170mm 2000m 84mm 110mm 90mm 132mm 152mm

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"Using the 8.8 cm Panzergranate , successes against enemy tanks were achieved at short as well long ranges. The most favorable range is 1,200 to 2,000 meters. At ranges up to 2,000 meters, a direct hit is reckoned on the first or at the latest by the second shot. Additionally, small errors in range estimates at these ranges are almost insignificant. However, with good visibility success is even possible at ranges over 3,000 meters. As an example, at ranges from 2,500 meters to 3,000 meters, one PzKpfw VI fired 18 rounds to destroy five T-34 tanks (of which three were moving across the front)."

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The most favorable range is 1,200 to 2,000 meters.

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To quickly traverse the turret on to a target, the Tiger II was outfitted with a hydraulic motor for the turret drive. The speed at which the turret was traversed under power was dependant on the engine speed and selection of a low or high range by the gunner. With the high range power traverse engaged and the engine turning over at 2000 rpm, the turret could be traversed through 360 degrees in 19 seconds. At maximum allowable engine speed of 3000 rpm, the turret could be traversed 360° in less than ten seconds. The hydraulic traverse enabled coarse laying in order for the gunner to quickly get the selected target within the sight picture.

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Originally posted by Charles22: So, to relate the story of the 5 T34s knocked out I come with the conclusion that it's possible that if the targets were the basically square PZIVH, that the shots might've failed to penetrate, whereas it would work on a T34. Why? Because the trajectory of an arced shot had to come in from perhaps anywhere from a 10 to 45 degree angle, unlike at shorter ranges. If the shell comes in at say 45 degrees and the armor hit is sloped that amount it's a flat hit, whereas a target with a 0 degree slope would be better off. Actually, if hit, a T34 at 3000m may had been worse off than a Sherman being hit at 2000m (considering armor and slope only and not other factors).

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Originally posted by AmmoSgt: The odds aren't with any tank in World war 2 to get first round hits maybe 1 outta three times maybe if firing at a staionary target from the halt a kilometer and a half away ... Under what conditions are you talking about ??? what experience levels are involved ?? Tigers and Panthers do have higher rating on rangefinder and fire control but thats not the only stuff that effects accuracy .PZ III's have a better stab rating so if movement is involved I would expect higher hits from PZIII's you just upgraded to them that means you lost experience points and that would affect their accuracy negatively.. I think both Tigers and Panthers suffer from an inflated reputation from Hollywood and the Mythology of War that tends to make the Other Guys Good stuff Great ... Rate of fire on tigers is a 4 on panthers a 5 and on PZIII's a 6 so PZIII's are going to comeout ahead on a quck draw sitruation where the target is not in veiw a full turn especially compounded by the suppeior Stab on the PZIII's but the tactical situation has been changing to more things to suppress you did the national ratings change in '43?? i can't remember you may have lower national levels that could be affecting things ..explain further

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Originally posted by AmmoSgt: on a rifle range the average troop hits the target 95% of the time usually in or around the bull's eye and generally gets a passing score sometimes even sharpshooter or expert but at least marksman in order to pass basic training .. at least while i was in ..on pop up targets on a range bigger man size targets hitting about 50% of the time will get you qualified ...In veitnam it took on the average 100,000 rounds of small arms to kill 1 soldier ..seems that loud noises distract even the best marksmen

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Originally posted by AmmoSgt: Stab Ratings are on Pg 86 of the Manual ver 4.1 and can be seen on the OOB editor ..Historically Tigers got killed by air power and bazookas and artilery and all sorts of stuff Shermans didn't square up against Tigers that often against just Shermans and Just Tigers or Just any tank against just other tanks..all sorts of stuff is usually involved Gasoline powered tanks tended to burn more often than diesel powered tanks but tigers burned just as bad as any other tank if the ammo was hit ..so try and check your sources I think you have expectations fueled by legend more than facts and they are getting in the way of your enjoying what the units can do by focusing on what you are finding they can't.. German tanks are just tanks with whatever advantages armor and gun can give them over other tanks and as any of the Axis Players that have played against me will tell you Tigers die at about twice as often as American Armor try me at PBEM sometime

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Originally posted by Don: Alright Delta32, enough! What is with the personal attacks and baiting here? I disagree with AmmoSgt myself sometimes but there's no reason for this.

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Originally posted by Don: You're right there, Sarge. There are many of us who knew next to nothing of these tanks when we started with SPWAW, and after hearing about them for so long you expect that when you use them every shot will result in a spectacular fiery kill! They miss like all tanks do, and they get blown up like all tanks do. Tactics had alot to do with it, or the Soviets would have had sucess long before they did with the T-34. Soviet troops did not launch a well coordinated combined arms attack against Germany until the Stalingrad encirclement. In SPWAW, if you want 80% shot probabilities with a Tiger, you must lay off the op-fire and let the elite crew and optics do their job. Also do NOT let AT troops near - I have a picture of a Tiger that looked like swiss cheese from AT rounds!

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Originally posted by Don: I don't care if you argue with her all day - this has gone back and forth for over 50 posts and you're sure not going to solve it making cracks about dealing with women and baking cookies. One of the great things about this forum has always been that this stuff is not done here - and now it's happened two nights in a row. Personally I don't care if someone thinks the Tiger is better than it actually was, or worse. I know what it can and cannot do in SPWAW, and that's all I care about. Going absolutely crazy with these posts over a game that we all love seems a little ridiculous to me.