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European Version of WiTP - 4/3/2013 12:12:33 AM

Gwaltney

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What game is the complexity or similar as WiTP for the European campaign?
Thanks,

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RE: European Version of WiTP - 4/3/2013 12:15:30 AM

Terminus

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None.

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RE: European Version of WiTP - 4/3/2013 12:44:48 AM

wdolson

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There isn't much. I've heard War in the East is pretty large scale, but it's also probably somewhat different. I don't have it, so I don't know for sure.

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RE: European Version of WiTP - 4/3/2013 12:56:24 AM

Gwaltney

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That is what I thought reading the descriptions, etc.

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RE: European Version of WiTP - 4/3/2013 1:33:15 AM

Terminus

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WitE is a fine game, but it has no naval component, and therefore is not as complex.

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RE: European Version of WiTP - 4/3/2013 2:35:14 AM

kevin_hx

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There are 2 mods about European campiagn of WITP.
War in The Mediterranean
War in Russia

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RE: European Version of WiTP - 4/3/2013 8:03:35 AM

Jorge_Stanbury

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War in the East should be the closest, and to be fair, the naval component is not really needed for an Eastern front wargame.

I bought the game recently but I have never played it (yet) too busy with work, extended weeks of business travel and obviously WitP-AE to put any effort into it

For what I have skimmed from the manual, it seems to be a very high scale game, with obvious focus on land warfare and probably better land logistics (like railroads, etc).

It is the same author (Gary Grigsby) and therefore you can probably expect the same obsession with micro-management and details

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RE: European Version of WiTP - 4/3/2013 9:47:08 AM

Terminus

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Grigsby had nothing to do with AE.

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RE: European Version of WiTP - 4/3/2013 9:59:03 AM

Jorge_Stanbury

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he is credited for "uncommon valor" and the first WitP

that said, I have never played either game (only WitP-AE) so I cannot assess how much of it is originally coming from him

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RE: European Version of WiTP - 4/3/2013 11:13:08 AM

Terminus

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I repeat, Grigsby had no involvement in AE.

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RE: European Version of WiTP - 4/3/2013 11:14:35 AM

Terminus

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And a naval component is most certainly not "irrelevant" for the Eastern Front... *cough*Black Sea*cough*Baltic Sea*cough*

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RE: European Version of WiTP - 4/3/2013 11:23:29 AM

Speedysteve

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From playing both AE and WITE extensively I can say there isn't an equivalent European AE game. The combat details under the hood are complex in both but WITE lacks the logistical and air war detail

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RE: European Version of WiTP - 4/3/2013 11:23:38 AM

tigercub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Grigsby had nothing to do with AE.

why its better

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RE: European Version of WiTP - 4/3/2013 11:37:40 AM

Jorge_Stanbury

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

I repeat, Grigsby had no involvement in AE.

I was not implying he was part of AE; just that AE is an expansion, improvement of "his" game WitP/ uncommon valor.

Regarding naval war in the east front; maybe irrelevant was not the right word, but in game term perspectives, it is not the "meat" of the game, as long as it is abstracted somehow, I am fine with it.

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RE: European Version of WiTP - 4/3/2013 12:41:05 PM

m10bob

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I would also like to see the European theatre portrayed at this scale, but especially when including the African campaign it would be on a vastly smaller, less involved scale of activity until after D Day. I would still play it, but WITP-AE is full, rich, and involved from Pearl Harbor on...........

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RE: European Version of WiTP - 4/3/2013 12:47:31 PM

HansBolter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

WitE is a fine game, but it has no naval component, and therefore is not as complex.

It isn't because it isn't as complex that causes it to fail to be a European Campaign equivalent of WITPAE.

It is the fact that it represents only a portion of the overall European theater that causes it to fail to be an equivalent.

Having cut my teeth on 20+ years of boardgaming before moving to computer games I played many grand strategic board games of both theaters.

I have yet to find a grand strategic computer game of the European theater with any real degree of complexity and detail. Almost all of them are oversimplified games with little appeal. I do truly long for a European theater game as complex and richly detailed as this game.

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RE: European Version of WiTP - 4/3/2013 1:42:03 PM

wdolson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

I would also like to see the European theatre portrayed at this scale, but especially when including the African campaign it would be on a vastly smaller, less involved scale of activity until after D Day. I would still play it, but WITP-AE is full, rich, and involved from Pearl Harbor on...........

An AE scale game that focuses primarily on Western Europe would have to have very robust modeling of the strategic bombing campaign. Without it, the game has frenetic activity in 1940 followed by four years of very little as the Americans build up starting in 1942.

A complete game that covers from central Russia to Iceland and North Africa to the Arctic Circle would have something going on for most of the war, though the period of agony for the Allies would last longer. The North Africa campaign dragged on for around 2 years before El Alamein changed the balance in the Allies favor. The war in Russia turned pretty much permanently after Stalingrad, but they won a major fight during the first winter with the Battle of Moscow.

You could do an interesting triphibious game with the u-boat campaign modeled as well as the strategic air campaign and land war modeled. I think I'd want to start over with a new game engine though. I think the only way that's going to happen is paying a handful of programmers to do it. I have too many irons in the fire to do anything more than dream about it.

Bill

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RE: European Version of WiTP - 4/3/2013 2:00:50 PM

gradenko2k

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WITE isn't that comparable to WITP, but the lack of a naval component is hardly a leading cause as to why.

On a different note, just because Gary Grigsby never actually worked on AE doesn't mean he had absolutely nothing to do with it. The name itself says that it's just another EDITION of Grigsby's War in the Pacific. I'm not trying to lessen the contributions of the good people at Henderson Field any, but let's not get tangled up in pedantics.

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RE: European Version of WiTP - 4/3/2013 2:23:46 PM

tigercub

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I not going to claim its the bees knees Hans but Hearts of Iron 3 with The finest Hour mod is a very good MP grand strategic much better than when it first came out!

Tigercub

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RE: European Version of WiTP - 4/3/2013 3:35:51 PM

dazoline II

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I'm guessing not many of you have read this: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3051557

It's 2 by 3s successor to WITE called strangely enough WITW, with plans to expand it to cover the entire theatre eventually. For those that know about WITE the air war and weather are getting major work for WITW but I'm not sure about the naval aspects. I'm wondering if naval will be the major focus once they concentrate on the entire theatre.

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RE: European Version of WiTP - 4/3/2013 3:39:58 PM

Terminus

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Oh, I should think EVERYBODY has seen that...

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RE: European Version of WiTP - 4/3/2013 4:54:27 PM

HansBolter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tigercub

I not going to claim its the bees knees Hans but Hearts of Iron 3 with The finest Hour mod is a very good MP grand strategic much better than when it first came out!

Tigercub

Played HOI 1 and 2 extensively, but never tried 3.

The biggest problem I had with HOI was instantaneous loading of troops on ships.

In a real time (continuous play) game you could load an entire invasion convoy in 1 minute (or whatever the shortest time increment was as it was too long ago that I played it to be able to remember) and it shipped out one minute (time increment) later.

Otherwise it was an enjoyable game, especially the research aspect.

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 4/3/2013 4:55:16 PM >

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RE: European Version of WiTP - 4/3/2013 5:50:22 PM

bigred

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Dali has been working on a Euro mod found in the mod section. Seems the German boys are hard at work on the issue...which will be too bad for allied armor.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2989233

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RE: European Version of WiTP - 4/3/2013 7:13:42 PM

tigercub

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its vastly better now in many ways!

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RE: European Version of WiTP - 4/3/2013 9:54:44 PM

Canoerebel

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As far as I know, Global War 2000 (a poorly named combination of two great Avalon Hill war games, Advanced Third Reich and Empire of the Rising sun) is far and away the greatest grand strategic WWII game covering all theaters. Advanced Third Reich was a beloved and matchless game of the European Theater. ERS wasn't quite as well received, but I played it and enjoyed it very much. If somebody created a computer version of Global War 2000 (but change the name for goodness sakes!), I'd play it in a heartbeat. That's the only thing I can imagine that might give AE a run for the money. (World in Flames - or whatever it's called - not a chance.)

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RE: European Version of WiTP - 4/4/2013 1:49:17 AM

Jorge_Stanbury

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The scale of a game covering the entire European theatre (including N Africa) should be daunting... unless it is done with a lot of abstraction (like HOI series)

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RE: European Version of WiTP - 4/4/2013 2:05:46 AM

wdolson

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I think most people find AE daunting. I think we're talking about another game for the masochist gamers.

Bill

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RE: European Version of WiTP - 4/4/2013 9:08:57 AM

Chris21wen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

I would also like to see the European theatre portrayed at this scale, but especially when including the African campaign it would be on a vastly smaller, less involved scale of activity until after D Day. I would still play it, but WITP-AE is full, rich, and involved from Pearl Harbor on...........

An AE scale game that focuses primarily on Western Europe would have to have very robust modeling of the strategic bombing campaign. Without it, the game has frenetic activity in 1940 followed by four years of very little as the Americans build up starting in 1942.

A complete game that covers from central Russia to Iceland and North Africa to the Arctic Circle would have something going on for most of the war, though the period of agony for the Allies would last longer. The North Africa campaign dragged on for around 2 years before El Alamein changed the balance in the Allies favor. The war in Russia turned pretty much permanently after Stalingrad, but they won a major fight during the first winter with the Battle of Moscow.

You could do an interesting triphibious game with the u-boat campaign modeled as well as the strategic air campaign and land war modeled. I think I'd want to start over with a new game engine though. I think the only way that's going to happen is paying a handful of programmers to do it. I have too many irons in the fire to do anything more than dream about it.

Bill

Agreed, you couldn't use WitPAE engine it's model of land combat is not very good and there is no proper command structure throughout the game. These two thing are the only drawback about AE and considering the European war was, and don't shoot me, predominently a land war critically important.

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RE: European Version of WiTP - 4/4/2013 12:39:30 PM

HansBolter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

As far as I know, Global War 2000 (a poorly named combination of two great Avalon Hill war games, Advanced Third Reich and Empire of the Rising sun) is far and away the greatest grand strategic WWII game covering all theaters. Advanced Third Reich was a beloved and matchless game of the European Theater. ERS wasn't quite as well received, but I played it and enjoyed it very much. If somebody created a computer version of Global War 2000 (but change the name for goodness sakes!), I'd play it in a heartbeat. That's the only thing I can imagine that might give AE a run for the money. (World in Flames - or whatever it's called - not a chance.)

Third Reich was the "go to ' game for me and my local group of wargame buddies for well over 15 years. We played all editions and eventually participated in the design of ATR. Mine is the last name in the design credits under playtesters.

ETO (European Theater of Operations and PTO (Pacific Theater of Operations) were also fine games that received a large amount of playing time with my group.

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RE: European Version of WiTP - 4/4/2013 12:44:29 PM

HansBolter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

I think most people find AE daunting. I think we're talking about another game for the masochist gamers.

Bill

AKA UltraGrognards

Posession of all but one of the Europa series games qualifies me if nothing else.

The combination of the Fire in the East and Scortched Earth maps took up most of a one car garage on a custom built plywood table.

It's sometimes hard to fathom just how many tens of thousands of cardboard counters I corner clipped. I shudder to think how many I clipped with an xacto knife before some one clued me in to the preferred technique of using nail clippers.

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