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- 5/22/2001 6:34:00 AM

sven

Posts: 10293
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: brickyard
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Mark I LOVE the Sherman for the reasons you listed. I think that it was also the most radically adapted armored vehicle in the war. One can hardly call the late Shermans Shermans in the sense that they 'are' the original M4. Sherman Rules!

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Post #: 121

- 5/22/2001 6:49:00 AM

AmmoSgt

Posts: 1002
Joined: 10/21/2000
From: Redstone Arsenal Al
Status: offline

What this game really needs is a PZIV or PZV that is a DDPZIVFlamFlailRamAPCMultipulerocketlauncher-dozer tank w/50cal AA

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"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which

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Post #: 122

- 5/22/2001 7:03:00 AM

Nikademus

Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Ezra: The poor maligned Sherman. It lacked punch, it lacked armor, it lit up like a christmas tree...so why did the US build it? Answer...You can ship it! You can put it on a train, take it the the dock, crain it into a cargo hold and send it anywhere in the world. Because of it simplicity, relability, size and weight more could be made and sent to where the fighting was. Not Germany, nor Russia faced the logistical difficulities that the US faced and overcame. Although weak and under gunned the Sherman is the only tank that can be called "The tank that won the war"

hmm well actually i'd call the T-34 the tank that won the war. Becuase it played a big part in keeping Russia in the war. And if Russia had'nt stayed in the war the question of whether we'd have been able to land in Normandy much less beat Nazi Germany on land would have been seriously called into question.

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Post #: 123

- 5/22/2001 7:11:00 AM

sven

Posts: 10293
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: brickyard
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by AmmoSgt: What this game really needs is a PZIV or PZV that is a DDPZIVFlamFlailRamAPCMultipulerocketlauncher-dozer tank w/50cal AA

Don't forget that special chobham/germanium armor. Or the radar/sonar/uv/laser optic with the optional 0/0 gyroscopic with special perfect calibration package. Oh and the hovercraft add on if it is set in 1945. ;)

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Post #: 124

- 5/22/2001 7:44:00 AM

Nikademus

Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
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quote:

Originally posted by Greg McCarty: Arralen PS: .. and I'm so tired of these complaints, really .. [This message has been edited by Arralen (edited February 15, 2001).][/B]

Me too. Fact is, If we look at the ranges that we engage at most of the time during a typical game, one begins to realize that we are in that "rough parity" window all too often. The usual reason for this, aside from too much LOS obstruction, is that we are often suffering under some kind of time constraint. So what do we do? . [/QUOTE] Super good point. I've often wondered why the majority of scenerios, pre-made as well as generated tend to have such short turn totals? Granted there are often situations where one is not allowed the time to properly set up a classic attack but it seems to me that there should be a better balance between "mission-quick" scenerios and longer turn battles that give a player time to employ some real time strategy into the works vs being forced to rush forward in order to take those distant victory hexes. heh, whats more frustrating than a thread like this popping up over and over? Trying to employ tactics learned from primers, other players, and your own experiences only to have to "chuck the rulebook" out the turret hatch because you only have 12 turns to acomplish the mission. Peddles to the floor gentlemen!!!!! :rolleyes:

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Post #: 125

- 5/22/2001 7:51:00 AM

sven

Posts: 10293
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: brickyard
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by Nikademus: hmm well actually i'd call the T-34 the tank that won the war. Becuase it played a big part in keeping Russia in the war. And if Russia had'nt stayed in the war the question of whether we'd have been able to land in Normandy much less beat Nazi Germany on land would have been seriously called into question.

I thought the 'Tiger' won the war. Ask any of the 'cubs'.

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Post #: 126

- 5/22/2001 8:30:00 AM

AmmoSgt

Posts: 1002
Joined: 10/21/2000
From: Redstone Arsenal Al
Status: offline

whaddya mean to close , to much terrain features.. fix bayonets GURROCK Col. Chamberland Little Roundtop [ May 21, 2001: Message edited by: AmmoSgt ]

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Post #: 127

- 5/22/2001 9:02:00 AM

Nikademus

Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
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quote:

Originally posted by sven: I thought the 'Tiger' won the war. Ask any of the 'cubs'.

Naw, the Tiger just wins the popularity contest. :p

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Post #: 128

- 5/22/2001 9:12:00 AM

Mark Ezra

Posts: 340
Joined: 12/29/2000
From: Jasmin Ranch, Acton CA
Status: offline

Hi Nikademus: While I think the T 34 is the best tank design of WW2 it's just not in the same catagory as the Sherman. The East front is where the war was lost for the Germans and certainly the T-34 played a big part in that loss. The Sherman played a big roll in the German/Italian loss of North Africa, Sciliy, Italy and the German loss of NW Europe and over half of Germany and Japans Loss of SE Asia, and the entire Pacific Rim. No tank in history comes close to the Sherman in conquered land mass. Hence the title belongs to the Humble Sherman

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Post #: 129

- 5/22/2001 10:05:00 AM

Nikademus

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From: Alien spacecraft
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whole other catagory? Indeed though usually many would argue that it was a catagory that the Sherman came close to but did'nt quite achieve vs. the T-34. Reason being is that while the T-34 enjoyed better attributes in the more basic attributes by which 'most' tanks are judged (firepower...mobility...armor) the Sherman's key strengths lay in the lesser well known and popularized attributes which tend to be decisive on a strategic front, mainly mass producability and excellent reliability. True the Sherman was used by more nations and was deployed to more theatres than the T-34 but that does'nt make the Sherman itself better. It just means that the US produced more than it needed for itself. :) The Sherman ranks up there along with the T-34 for the qualities you stated but in the end the Sherman itself owes its origins to the T-34. Speer paid both tanks a supreme compliment when he called the Sherman "The T-34 of the West" The Sherman did a credible job, but the T-34 paved the way. And as far as the land fighting was concerned, the Eastern Front was the dominant and key theatre. As for the Pacific, well not to pick on the Japanese (they get it enough on other boards....trust me) but any decently armored medium tank could and did preform well because Japanese armor development and more importantly doctorine put them at a disadvantage with the notable exception of Malaya where Japanese inovation took the British by suprise. What the Sherman did to the Japanese the Lee was able to do as well, along with the Stuart. And in the end the T-34 was there too when they smashed through the Kwangtung Army like it was made of cardboard.

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Post #: 130

- 5/22/2001 10:50:00 AM

DCruiser

Posts: 8
Joined: 9/27/2000
From: Lower Sackville, NS, Canada
Status: offline

The Western Allies didn't need a tank that could kill Tigers, they just sent in the Airforce. Too bad the Typhoons in SPWAW don't reflect their devastating effect on German armour. Guess you could call this post a curve ball. Cheers, DCruiser

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Post #: 131

- 5/23/2001 1:11:00 AM

Paul Vebber

Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
Status: offline

Read up on actual performance - they were very hit and miss, but used in mass they were decisive. Try playing the Germans with 2 or 3 squadrons of them harrassing you.. The per sortiy kill rates are adjusted to reflect actual per/sortie kill rates, and hionestly are a little on the high side for sme weapons

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Post #: 132

- 5/23/2001 2:00:00 AM

sven

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From: brickyard
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While the Typhoon was deadly against German armor an even deadlier enemy was NO GAS OR SPARES reaching the front line! :D Super Duper Tank (read the Tiger) can't do a bunch w/out fuel..... hahahahahaha HAHAHAHA! whoops sorry, sven p.s. I forgot never question the supremacy of 'El Tigre'! ;)

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Post #: 133

- 5/23/2001 3:10:00 AM

AmmoSgt

Posts: 1002
Joined: 10/21/2000
From: Redstone Arsenal Al
Status: offline

Part of "Tactics" is controling the "shape" of the battlefield and the ability to strike in depth .. properly used combined arms can force the other guy to have to defend and watch every hex on the map ... air and arty are inportant in this regard ... but so is speed and maneuverablity recon infiltration ... I see folks spliting their forces into three neat packages one for each group of vhexes .. in a even fight, point for point, that can give me as much as a three to one advantage locally anywhere on the battlefield , at my chosing ... if they are buying arty and AA to cover their rear maybe even 4 to one locally ...and trust me if you ever play me ..you need to cover your rear .. the Sherman ( allied armor in general ) can win against the best the Germans have .. and if Shermans had 90mm and double frontal armor .. the Germans could win as well ... the key is using appropiate tactics .. Allied air can indeed be very lethal in this game ... but so can well placed flak traps .. a little study in the empolyment of different types of units can do wonders .. Just as good Armor tactics can make you a better tanker proper flak tactics can make you a better flak gunner .. The problem here, with this game, is so many different types of units are in play .. and excellence in using tanks won't save you from Air and excellence in just Flak won't take Vhexes .. you need to use everything and use it with a sound doctrine .. doctrine has always been a two edged sword .. doesn't matter how good the equipment is or isn't bad doctrine gets you killed good doctrine gets you a win.. If unit can't do what you want it to, either get it the support it needs to do the job or get a unit that can ... Believe me there is NO reason that Air should Dominate this game given the way the game is set up .. and there is NO reason it shouldn't dominate this game if the other guy lets it ... there have been some links posted that give actual hit and kill statistics for allied air going after axis armor and i don't think the game is that far off , everything in the game i think is a bit more effective than it was in real life ... but.. most battles lasted much more the 18 turns in real life .. it is porportional for the most part ...some folks think that an particularly good weapons system, should behave in the game, as they think it did in real life .. If you don't use the tactics that were used in real life it just won't happen ... I have said this before and i mean NO offense but Tiger Tanks in real life were Crewed by masters of Tank Tactics .. wargaming Hobbists seldom have that personal level of experience and expertise .. and will never have it if they keep demanding the game be set up so that Hobbists can get those results right out of the box .. i don't care how incompetent the opponent is ..AI or Human, bad tactics get bad results even against Bad tactics.. the other guys bad tactics can't help you if you don't know when to exploit them Ok i will get off my soap box .. flame away if you must

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Post #: 134

- 5/23/2001 4:45:00 AM

sven

Posts: 10293
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: brickyard
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by AmmoSgt: Part of "Tactics" is controling the "shape" of the battlefield and the ability to strike in depth .. properly used combined arms can force the other guy to have to defend and watch every hex on the map ... air and arty are inportant in this regard ... but so is speed and maneuverablity recon infiltration ... I see folks spliting their forces into three neat packages one for each group of vhexes .. in a even fight, point for point, that can give me as much as a three to one advantage locally anywhere on the battlefield , at my chosing ... if they are buying arty and AA to cover their rear maybe even 4 to one locally ...and trust me if you ever play me ..you need to cover your rear .. the Sherman ( allied armor in general ) can win against the best the Germans have .. and if Shermans had 90mm and double frontal armor .. the Germans could win as well ... the key is using appropiate tactics .. Allied air can indeed be very lethal in this game ... but so can well placed flak traps .. a little study in the empolyment of different types of units can do wonders .. Just as good Armor tactics can make you a better tanker proper flak tactics can make you a better flak gunner .. The problem here, with this game, is so many different types of units are in play .. and excellence in using tanks won't save you from Air and excellence in just Flak won't take Vhexes .. you need to use everything and use it with a sound doctrine .. doctrine has always been a two edged sword .. doesn't matter how good the equipment is or isn't bad doctrine gets you killed good doctrine gets you a win.. If unit can't do what you want it to, either get it the support it needs to do the job or get a unit that can ... Believe me there is NO reason that Air should Dominate this game given the way the game is set up .. and there is NO reason it shouldn't dominate this game if the other guy lets it ... there have been some links posted that give actual hit and kill statistics for allied air going after axis armor and i don't think the game is that far off , everything in the game i think is a bit more effective than it was in real life ... but.. most battles lasted much more the 18 turns in real life .. it is porportional for the most part ...some folks think that an particularly good weapons system, should behave in the game, as they think it did in real life .. If you don't use the tactics that were used in real life it just won't happen ... I have said this before and i mean NO offense but Tiger Tanks in real life were Crewed by masters of Tank Tactics .. wargaming Hobbists seldom have that personal level of experience and expertise .. and will never have it if they keep demanding the game be set up so that Hobbists can get those results right out of the box .. i don't care how incompetent the opponent is ..AI or Human, bad tactics get bad results even against Bad tactics.. the other guys bad tactics can't help you if you don't know when to exploit them Ok i will get off my soap box .. flame away if you must

Nothing makes me happier than using superior strategy to gain a local tactical advantage... :D Some people put the cart before the horse as concerns the 'Tigre' in another way. Part of the reason it was such a kick butt tank was BECAUSE it was crewed by men who were already TANK ACES. 'El Tigre Tamer', sven ;)

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Post #: 135

- 5/23/2001 5:05:00 AM

AmmoSgt

Posts: 1002
Joined: 10/21/2000
From: Redstone Arsenal Al
Status: offline

I have Said it before and i will say it again .. A marine on Guadacanal hunkers down behind a watercooled 30 cal browning and stops a banzai charge single handed .. and the Marine gets the credit .. A Tiger Crew using skill and guts , just like the marine on Guadcanal , Knocks out 20 T-34's and everybody with 40 bucks thinks they can Play a Tiger as well in a wargame .. I ask you ... who is being the most disrespectful to brave and skilled soldiers .. the folks who say the Tiger isn't a wonder weapon .. or the folks who think anybody should be able to duplicate a heroic feat of Skill and valor right out of the box ?

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Post #: 136

- 5/23/2001 5:48:00 AM

murx

Posts: 245
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From: Braunschweig/Germany
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AmmoSgt, I don't completely agree to your argumentation - if all .30 MG gunners were trained to make a stand if needed the .30 MG would be much more famous, if not most of the Tigers tanks crews were experts the Tiger wouldn't be as famous. So Tigers weren't only just famous for their tank but for their crew too - it wasn't the Tigers fault that it was equipped with good crew - but it was an Allied fault to use green troops in some crucial engagements. I say, what do you really expect from soldiers that have just an 8 week training ? I expect them to know how to change underwear, that's all ... murx

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Post #: 137

- 5/23/2001 10:05:00 AM

Paul Vebber

Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
Status: offline

Medal of Honor performance isn't quite changing underwear...IT can happen in the game, and probably more often than in real life, but its a game! Iv'e had a Marine 30 cal gunner stand up to a platoon plus of japs, but most of the time he gets swarmed...

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Post #: 138

- 5/23/2001 10:19:00 PM

GI Seve

Posts: 101
Joined: 6/27/2000
From: Oulu, Finland
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by RockinHarry: ..not quite topic but maybe of interest: Panther damages: Notes on the (lack of) effectiveness of Allied WW2 ground attack planes: http://www-online.shef.ac.uk:3001/mr-home/hobbies/rocket.txt

Funny thing to notice on this text was that Pzkf.IV was told to be Panther :rolleyes: Anyways I was't abe to read if all but I figure it's guite good text to be red. Doe's someone know wheter there even was any REAL Panthers on Contentin penninsula at the times of Alliend invasion? I got impression from somewhere that there were none available.... Oh and wasn't Panther signed Pzkf.VI ?

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Post #: 139

- 5/24/2001 12:39:00 AM

murx

Posts: 245
Joined: 3/6/2001
From: Braunschweig/Germany
Status: offline

Panther = PzKfw V And only the British encountered Panthers at Normandy - but only later after they solidated the bridgehead... (all without warranty - just my knowledge) murx

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Post #: 140