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VMF-214??? - 4/15/2013 5:54:06 AM   
jbdenney

 

Posts: 59
Joined: 3/13/2008
Status: offline 		Got into a discussion of pilots in the Pacific. This led to us discussing VMF-214 (Blacksheep) in which my wife is a specialist (she knew the history of Don Moore and corresponded with his family - he was from her home town - Amarillo). I got to looking a realized that the game shows VMF-214 flying the Buffalo and then upgrading to Wildcats. She pointed out to me that the VMF-214 flew the Corsair. I started back checking and she is right and the game is wrong.

Bummer.....
Post #: 1
RE: VMF-214??? - 4/15/2013 6:46:37 AM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Well the squadron was first formed in 1942, served a tour and was disbanded then reformed later in 1943. That was the famous Black Sheep Squadron which flew corsairs. But there were no corsairs to fly in 1942.

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Post #: 2
RE: VMF-214??? - 4/15/2013 7:34:15 AM   
CV 2

 

Posts: 376
Joined: 2/21/2011
Status: offline 		http://acepilots.com/usmc_vmf214.html

There is nothing in VMF 214s history that indicates they were equipped with Buffalos at any point. From the link:

VMF-214 was first commissioned in July, 1942, as part of the build-up of Marine Corps airpower that took place after Pearl Harbor. Based at Ewa, on Oahu, Major George Britt took command of the nascent squadron, which really got moving with the arrival of eleven F4F-3 'Dash 3' Wildcats and single SNJ-4 trainer in October.

Pilots joined up that summer and fall, including Technical Sergeant Alvin J. Jensen, a enlisted man who won his wings under the Naval Aviation Pilot (NAP) program. Also Henry Miller, a Harvard Law School graduate, who had been deemed to old for the U.S. services and had joined the RCAF in 1941. Miller turned out to be an excellent pilot, and after Pearl Harbor, the U.S. naval services wanted him badly enough to compensate the Canadians $25,000 for his training. Major Britt requested Captain Henry Ellis as Exec; they had served together in VMF-211. They all trained hard, practicing gunnery, wearing out and sometimes crashing their aircraft.

When eight of the newer F4F-4 'Dash 4' Wildcats were delivered in December, 1942, they brought the squadron's inventory back up to fourteen planes. Even though the Dash 4 was newer, some pilots preferred the Dash 3, which had fewer guns (4 vs. 6), but a longer-lasting ammunition supply. On account of its heavier armament and folding wings, the Dash 4 was heavier, and therefore slower to climb.

VMF-214 embarked for the Solomons in February, 1943 on the small carrier, Nassau for the long Pacific journey. On March 3, off Pentecost Island, New Hebrides, Nassau catapulted the Wildcats of VMF-214 towards the squadron's new home - the fighter strip at Turtle Bay, Espiritu Santo.

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Post #: 3
RE: VMF-214??? - 4/15/2013 8:03:16 AM   
jbdenney

 

Posts: 59
Joined: 3/13/2008
Status: offline 		Ok - found this - http://www.3rdmaw.marines.mil/Units/MAG13/VMA214/History

From what I read here "Marine Fighter Squadron (VMF) 214 was originally commissioned on 1 July 1942 at Ewa, on the island of Oahu, in the Hawaiian group. Initially called the "Swashbucklers," they successfully completed two combat tours before the designation was given to the Marine command on Espiritu Santo." I get the impression that the 1943 VMF-214 was not the same unit as the 1942 incarnation. I read this that the unit assigned to this name was changed instead of the unit being moved. I figure this would work as a "withdrawal" followed by being brought back. I do see that the pilots assigned to the original VMF-214 are pilots that served with the 1943 version. IIRC the pilots who manned the Blacksheep squadron were pulled from the replacement pilot pool so I figure the pilot list for VMF-214 as a way of having the "historical" pilots set when the unit comes back.

This brings up a question. I know if an air group is "withdrawn" it loses its planes but keeps its pilots together for when it comes back in 60 days. When the unit is brought back is it possible to change the planes assigned to the unit (i.the unit left as a Wildcat unit comes back as a Corsair unit)? Or is it possible to change the assigned aircraft type of an existing unit (outside the upgrade path)without allowing "user defined upgrades"? I assume if the "Player Upgrade" option is activated I can change any air group to any aircraft type of the same general type (F, FB, B et)as an upgrade? I guess the brunt of this is how to go about recreating the original VMF-214 flying Corsairs within the game mechanics.

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Post #: 4
RE: VMF-214??? - 4/15/2013 10:55:55 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		Just about anything can be done with the editor.

Tim Tom can speak for himself but he has a very good record of justifying his OOB decisions.

With regard to VMF-214 be very careful with what you wish for. The unit arrives mid 1942 and like USMC air units, is carrier capable. The Corsair which arrives in January 1943 is not carrier capable. The carrier capable Corsair airframe does not arrive until October 1943. Are you prepared to lose the option of operating that off CVs until very late in 1943? Not everyone else would appreciate that outcome.

I keep on saying this but soon I'm just not going to bother. AE is a commercial product game which by necessity has to rely upon a great deal of abstraction. Invariably the devs, fully cognisant of the game's limitations and capabilities, make good judgement calls on the inevitable abstraction choices. Individual players can always use the editor to alter particular elements to their own satisfaction. Just beware of unintended consequences such as short changing your range if replacing the Buffalo with another carrier capable airframe, or losing carrier operational capability, or impacting on airframe pools, or unexpected loss of PPs.

As to PDU. With it OFF, there is no choice, one is limited to the pre design upgrade path. With it ON, you will be shown all the upgrade options. The choices are limited to same nationality, with some recent fudging to allow national "cousins" to provide airframes albeit at the cost of PPs. Generally like to like types but again some recent fudging to broaden, at the cost of PPs, cross "species" upgrades. But still limited.

Alfred

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Post #: 5
RE: VMF-214??? - 4/15/2013 11:17:56 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline 		I'm looking at VMF-214 in the editor for Scenario 1. It is in slot 2594 and arrives with 2 Wildcats on July 1, 1942. It upgrades to the F4U-1. I don't know what version you're playing, but that is how it is in the latest official scenario.

Looking at DaBabes scenario VMF-214 does arrive with 2 Buffalo on July 1, 1942 and upgrades to the F4F. The second upgrade is set to the F4U-1. It looks like the DaBabes scenario creators got that detail wrong, but it will be corrected over time. You'd have to be desperate or a very poor player to throw a unit with 2 Buffalo and low experience directly into combat without training them up. By the time they are ready to deploy, they will almost certainly have F4F-4s and can upgrade to F4U-1 when the they are available.

Bill

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Post #: 6
RE: VMF-214??? - 4/15/2013 3:32:56 PM   
jbdenney

 

Posts: 59
Joined: 3/13/2008
Status: offline 		I am playing the Official Scenario from the latest patch.

I fully understand the issues faced by game designers in a game of the scope of WitP AE. It becomes a real problem having to make OOB judgement calls and trying to balance a clean gaming system yet trying to include the "Chrome" of special units and situations. VMF-214 happens to be a "special love" of this household because of my wife's interest. (Yes I have a wife who is also very interested in History.)I know there are others who would be completely bent out of shape if you cannot duplicate the Doolittle raid (I have yet to figure out if that raid is possible in in WitP AE) Chrome is nice for "Flavor" but too much of it can ruin a good playable game - I use the term "Playable" very loosely when talking about WithP AE.

If VMF-214 really bothers me when the time comes I will turn on "Player Defined Upgrades" just long enough to make the switch and then turn it off. On the other hand I am sure there are hundreds of such iffy situations that come up in a game this size and it is not worth the programing overhead to cover those situations.

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Post #: 7
RE: VMF-214??? - 4/15/2013 4:33:08 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Sorry Bill, but VMF-214 arrives with a pair of F2As on July 1st. It upgrades to F4F-4, and then the chain goes to the Corsair. The squadron later withdraws and comes back with the F4U-4.

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Post #: 8
RE: VMF-214??? - 4/15/2013 11:36:13 PM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline 		I don't know what version of the official scenarios I have at the moment, they are dated November 2011, but VMF-214 arrives with F4F, not Buffalo.

Bill

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Post #: 9
RE: VMF-214??? - 4/16/2013 12:21:00 AM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Mine are dated in the fall of 2010. Completely untouched, except for patching, beta and otherwise.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Terminus -- 4/16/2013 12:22:23 AM >

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Post #: 10
RE: VMF-214??? - 4/16/2013 1:49:57 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline 		I don't know where my version came from, but I didn't edit it.






Attachment (1)

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Post #: 11
RE: VMF-214??? - 4/16/2013 4:01:12 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline


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Post #: 12
RE: VMF-214??? - 4/16/2013 4:57:44 AM   
DivePac88


Posts: 3119
Joined: 10/9/2008
From: Somewhere in the South Pacific.
Status: offline 		Bill, I think that yours might be the old editor from the original WitP game maybe?

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Post #: 13
RE: VMF-214??? - 4/16/2013 5:28:30 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline 		Everything is from my installed copy of AE. I don't even have WitP installed anymore. I'm using the most recent version of the AE editor.

Bill

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Post #: 14
RE: VMF-214??? - 4/16/2013 5:29:09 AM   
Quixote


Posts: 773
Joined: 8/14/2008
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DivePac88

Bill, I think that yours might be the old editor from the original WitP game maybe?


The old WitP files aren't compatible with the new AE Editor - the format is different, and in old WitP Scenario 1 was the tutorial. I don't know where Bill's version is from, but my install (re-install) is pretty recent and appears to be the same one both Terminus and the OP have. (I looked at both Da Babes and Andy Mac's unofficial scenario updates before posting this, but neither of them - at least as of now - have a November 2011 date on them - sorry Bill, no idea where your current SC1 is from.)

(in reply to DivePac88)
Post #: 15
RE: VMF-214??? - 4/16/2013 7:18:09 AM   
Misconduct


Posts: 1864
Joined: 2/18/2009
From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
Status: offline 		I bought my WITP-AE on the day it was released, I have two Squadrons for VMF-214. One starts out with Buffalo's and upgrades to F4F Wildcats. Second starts with Corsairs.

I'm to lazy to include a photo, but it sounds like it was a small database error, considering the thousands of entries for the database, its not that big of a deal.

/We all know that's not a tiger tank, its really a T-34 with a body kit, sooooooo not historical. May we forget its a game?

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Post #: 16
RE: VMF-214??? - 4/16/2013 7:27:48 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline 		I think all versions have two VMF-214s. If you look at the posted screenshots above, you will see that one has an X by it and the other doesn't. The X indicates it is an active unit in the scenario. The other is there, but not used.

Bill

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Post #: 17
RE: VMF-214??? - 4/16/2013 11:00:38 AM   
Iron Duke


Posts: 529
Joined: 1/7/2002
From: UK
Status: offline 		Looks like an database issue


Scen 01
air groups -slot 2594 -delay 420701 - withdraw 440115 - return delay 440315 w/ F4F-4 Wildats upgrading to F4U-1 Corsair
air groups - slot 25 -delay 9999 - w/ F4U-1A Corsairs upgrading to F4u-4 Corsairs


Scen 02 -slot 2594 delay/withdraw/return delay as above w/ F2A-3 Buffalo upgrading to F4f-4 Wildcat upgrading to F4U-1 Corsair
-slot 2595 -- as scen 01

Scen 06 -- as Scen 02

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Post #: 18
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