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Ship building ??? - 4/16/2013 9:22:09 PM

geofflambert

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I'm trying to learn how to play as the Japanese and I have a question.

I'm rather fragile so please try to break this to me gently:

Is the Japanese player able to initiate the construction of new ships? Also, can he order conversions of ships to come? Are there any existing ships such as TK, AO or CA that can be converted to carriers? If I'm able to do any of the above I might also be interested in stopping production of some ships, is that possible? Can you speed up construction of specific ships and if so how? How do you know which shipyards are producing what ships?

Are you going to tell me that you have to be a masochist to play the Japanese?

Do I have to flog myself or can I hire someone to do it? Are there any house rules out there about that?

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RE: Ship building ??? - 4/16/2013 9:39:11 PM

Terminus

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You can only stop building of ships that are in the pipeline, restart stopped ones, or increase their construction speed. What you see is what you get.

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RE: Ship building ??? - 4/16/2013 9:39:13 PM

Numdydar

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Japan ship production is all fixed based on the historical timeline. You have a pool of 'points' that are different. One set is for Merch and the other for combat ships. SysYrd and MerchYrd I think they are called. Ships are built using these points, not at specific shipyards in the game. The shipyards just produce the points which goes into the two differnt point pools.

Any ship conversions, use supply points and typically need a certain size Repair shipyard. The upgrade screen for the particular ship will tell you the size that is needed. Some conversion can only take place at toyako and the shipyard has to be expanded in Scen 1 in order to do so. These conversions are the float plane ships (CS) into CVLs. There are two this applies to, but do not recal the names. If you try and covert these ships and it is not working, send them to Tokayo :)

As far a controlling the ship building process you have three choices, Normal, Accelerated and Halted. Halted means the ship will never get built (a good ship class to do this for is all the RO class subs). Halted means ship points will not be used to build these ships. Some people also like to halt the Mansu (BB) to be able to Accelerate CVs instead (I did this). Accelerated means just that you are using additiona ship points to build the ship quicker than historical. I think this increases the number of points needed to build the ship by 50%. Which means you cannot do this to a lot of big costly ships (like CVs)

. I was able to get a few CVs earlier than normal by halting production and expanded the shipyards a little bit (and I mean a little bit too, like 20 points or less).

If you leave everything on Normal, you will get the ships close to the historical schedule, plus or minus the number of days you chose when you started the scenerio.

I hope this helps and that I was gentle enough

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RE: Ship building ??? - 4/16/2013 9:58:57 PM

Chickenboy

Posts: 24520
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From: San Antonio, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I'm trying to learn how to play as the Japanese and I have a question.

I'm rather fragile so please try to break this to me gently:

Is the Japanese player able to initiate the construction of new ships?

No.

quote:

Also, can he order conversions of ships to come?

No.

quote:

Are there any existing ships such as TK, AO or CA that can be converted to carriers?

There are some CS ships that convert / upgrade to CVL. Many xAKs can upgrade to AVs.

quote:

If I'm able to do any of the above I might also be interested in stopping production of some ships, is that possible?

Yes. But not until the 'keel is laid'. So, you can't stop production until it's started, in other words.

quote:

Can you speed up construction of specific ships and if so how?

Yes. Military ships (SS, DD, CV, CVL, etc.) can be accelerated by using naval shipyard points, which can be produced like factory points. Merchant points can be used for accelerating (mostly) non-military ships such as TK, xAK, xAP and the like.

quote:

How do you know which shipyards are producing what ships?

Doesn't really work that way. You know where the ships will be arriving, but they are produced by drawing on a national points system, not solely the harbor to which they'll be arriving.

quote:

Are you going to tell me that you have to be a masochist to play the Japanese?

No, but it helps.

quote:

Do I have to flog myself or can I hire someone to do it? Are there any house rules out there about that?

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

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RE: Ship building ??? - 4/17/2013 4:46:47 AM

geofflambert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Are there any existing ships such as TK, AO or CA that can be converted to carriers?
There are some CS ships that convert / upgrade to CVL. Many xAKs can upgrade to AVs.

I'm thinking Chitose and Chiyoda.

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RE: Ship building ??? - 4/17/2013 4:56:56 AM

geofflambert

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Ok, this should be my final question in this thread. Let's say I want to stop the building of Shinano. I don't want it to become a carrier or a battleship, perhaps I want that steel to make tanks, (or tankers). How exactly do I do that?

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RE: Ship building ??? - 4/17/2013 5:04:52 AM

wyrmmy

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Best you can do is halt it. Where's the turn?

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RE: Ship building ??? - 4/17/2013 5:10:30 AM

PaxMondo

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When you halt the Shinano, you now save all of those naval points, which means you are saving the HI required to make those. You can then use that HI to create VEH points which you would use for tanks.

NSY pts require 3 HI
VEH require 6 HI

I am always short of VEH pts. The more you use your armored units, the bigger the issue with VEH pts.

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RE: Ship building ??? - 4/17/2013 7:56:09 AM

Chris21wen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Are there any existing ships such as TK, AO or CA that can be converted to carriers?
There are some CS ships that convert / upgrade to CVL. Many xAKs can upgrade to AVs.

I'm thinking Chitose and Chiyoda.

Tokyo only, so you have to build Tokyo ship repair up to min 50.

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RE: Ship building ??? - 4/17/2013 8:17:59 AM

n01487477

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

When you halt the Shinano, you now save all of those naval points, which means you are saving the HI required to make those. You can then use that HI to create VEH points which you would use for tanks.

NSY pts require 3 HI
VEH require 6 HI

I am always short of VEH pts. The more you use your armored units, the bigger the issue with VEH pts.

I know Pax forgot to mention a step here. To really divert that HI you need to Halt the Shinano and then Turn off the corresponding no. of Naval Shipyards. The halting of the Shinano on its own will just mean that those points are accumulated rather than going to other things.

Most players halt the Shinano and accelerate some of the late war CV's to get them in '43. If you halt the shinano, delay the Yamato class BB's, only build SS's with air capability & increase your Naval shipyards a little; you can basically accelerate most of the late war CV's. Takes a little fiddling though.

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RE: Ship building ??? - 4/17/2013 10:43:48 AM

castor troy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: n01487477

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

When you halt the Shinano, you now save all of those naval points, which means you are saving the HI required to make those. You can then use that HI to create VEH points which you would use for tanks.

NSY pts require 3 HI
VEH require 6 HI

I am always short of VEH pts. The more you use your armored units, the bigger the issue with VEH pts.

I know Pax forgot to mention a step here. To really divert that HI you need to Halt the Shinano and then Turn off the corresponding no. of Naval Shipyards. The halting of the Shinano on its own will just mean that those points are accumulated rather than going to other things.

Most players halt the Shinano and accelerate some of the late war CV's to get them in '43. If you halt the shinano, delay the Yamato class BB's, only build SS's with air capability & increase your Naval shipyards a little; you can basically accelerate most of the late war CV's. Takes a little fiddling though.

having those IJN CV in 43 is a major threat for the Allied if original KB is still intact by that time but Yamato and Musashi is a lot cooler

Shinano not so much for all the points being spent for her.

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RE: Ship building ??? - 4/17/2013 4:12:04 PM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: n01487477

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

When you halt the Shinano, you now save all of those naval points, which means you are saving the HI required to make those. You can then use that HI to create VEH points which you would use for tanks.

NSY pts require 3 HI
VEH require 6 HI

I am always short of VEH pts. The more you use your armored units, the bigger the issue with VEH pts.

I know Pax forgot to mention a step here. To really divert that HI you need to Halt the Shinano and then Turn off the corresponding no. of Naval Shipyards. The halting of the Shinano on its own will just mean that those points are accumulated rather than going to other things.

Most players halt the Shinano and accelerate some of the late war CV's to get them in '43. If you halt the shinano, delay the Yamato class BB's, only build SS's with air capability & increase your Naval shipyards a little; you can basically accelerate most of the late war CV's. Takes a little fiddling though.

having those IJN CV in 43 is a major threat for the Allied if original KB is still intact by that time but Yamato and Musashi is a lot cooler Shinano not so much for all the points being spent for her.

I will actually build the Shinano in Scen 2 when she's a Taiho, but I never accelerate them. Too many points invested to do that.

In my latest start, I've halted the Yamatos (I may turn them back on), but by doing so and adjusting some of the DDs I've been able to accelerate every other CV and CVL that's still in the "queued" stage. I can't wait to get them

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RE: Ship building ??? - 4/17/2013 6:12:57 PM

Jorge_Stanbury

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You can also convert your old Battleships into those wonderful, war winning, carrier-BB hybrids that every JFB is so fond of

< Message edited by Jorge_Stanbury -- 4/17/2013 6:40:03 PM >

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RE: Ship building ??? - 4/17/2013 8:42:23 PM

geofflambert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

You can also convert your old Battleships into those wonderful, war winning, carrier-BB hybrids that every JFB is so fond of

Methinks I hear a note of sarcasm here.

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RE: Ship building ??? - 4/17/2013 8:51:13 PM

geofflambert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wyrmm

Best you can do is halt it. Where's the turn?

I didn't get this on first reading. I've not actually begun any playtesting, though I threatened to, so I'm not at a turn. I've changed my mind and decided to just try and understand the system, then give my next opponent the advantage of my inexperience. You, Raiden, if you choose to accept that mission (that's a Mission Impossible reference). I think it will make for more a more suspenseful and fun game for both players. For those of you not in the know, I call him "Raiden" after his avatar, because I refuse to address him as "wyrmm". I once thought of changing my screen name, but Matrix won't allow that. Tis a pity.

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RE: Ship building ??? - 4/18/2013 12:57:26 AM

SuluSea

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I run a tight ship as far as my industry and try not to overbuild. I do build my naval shipyards from the starting 1384 to 1480 that way I don't have to turn off neither the Musashi or Yamato and I can still accelerate some wanted vessels. I halt the standard RO boats and Shinano as well . Every game is different but my thinking is at some point you'll be building stuff to get sunk the tipping point could come early for some and late for others. No need to save NSY points spend them while they can make a difference the same thing with MSY points.

More than one way to skin a cat but here's a snapshot on the naval side of what I'm accelerating at this time.

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RE: Ship building ??? - 4/18/2013 7:53:16 AM

castor troy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: n01487477

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

When you halt the Shinano, you now save all of those naval points, which means you are saving the HI required to make those. You can then use that HI to create VEH points which you would use for tanks.

NSY pts require 3 HI
VEH require 6 HI

I am always short of VEH pts. The more you use your armored units, the bigger the issue with VEH pts.

I know Pax forgot to mention a step here. To really divert that HI you need to Halt the Shinano and then Turn off the corresponding no. of Naval Shipyards. The halting of the Shinano on its own will just mean that those points are accumulated rather than going to other things.

Most players halt the Shinano and accelerate some of the late war CV's to get them in '43. If you halt the shinano, delay the Yamato class BB's, only build SS's with air capability & increase your Naval shipyards a little; you can basically accelerate most of the late war CV's. Takes a little fiddling though.

having those IJN CV in 43 is a major threat for the Allied if original KB is still intact by that time but Yamato and Musashi is a lot cooler Shinano not so much for all the points being spent for her.

I will actually build the Shinano in Scen 2 when she's a Taiho, but I never accelerate them. Too many points invested to do that.

In my latest start, I've halted the Yamatos (I may turn them back on), but by doing so and adjusting some of the DDs I've been able to accelerate every other CV and CVL that's still in the "queued" stage. I can't wait to get them .

Shinano as a Taiho class CV makes sense building her IMO, Shinano as a Shinano class CV, I would preferre her being a Yamato... or not being built at all at this high cost

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RE: Ship building ??? - 4/18/2013 9:37:47 AM

pacificbetta

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Shinano squadrons do come with one of IJN best squadron commanders. I presume he is lost when we do not build out his carrier?

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RE: Ship building ??? - 4/18/2013 12:03:11 PM

SuluSea

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Mea Culpa here...Looking more closely at my image I can't understand why I accelerated those particular DDs when in my mind the closest DDs with radar were being accelerated. I must have made a change when I was playing under the influence.

To be fixed.

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RE: Ship building ??? - 4/18/2013 5:03:47 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Let's say I want to stop the building of Shinano.

OK. That's a little wierd, but I'll go along with it...

"I want to stop the building of Shinano."

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RE: Ship building ??? - 4/18/2013 8:30:44 PM

geofflambert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Let's say I want to stop the building of Shinano.

OK. That's a little wierd, but I'll go along with it...

"I want to stop the building of Shinano."

It took me a minute to get that.

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RE: Ship building ??? - 4/18/2013 8:35:15 PM

geofflambert

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Thanks for the graphic, SuluSea

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RE: Ship building ??? - 4/18/2013 9:46:50 PM

jmalter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea
I must have made a change when I was playing under the influence.

oh, like that never happens in my game. i've come to view it as the AI's 'equalizer' weapon.

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RE: Ship building ??? - 4/19/2013 12:09:05 AM

Justus2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea
I must have made a change when I was playing under the influence.

oh, like that never happens in my game. i've come to view it as the AI's 'equalizer' weapon.

Hmm, maybe the AI is secretly refilling drinks...

I do wonder if my computer is getting it's computer-friends to make automated telemarketing calls when I am in the middle of deep concentration or watching a battle video sometimes, to throw me off!

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RE: Ship building ??? - 4/19/2013 4:00:32 AM

geofflambert

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Better test your computers for GHB. I think some viruses download instructions on manufacturing that. As for delivering it, there's an app for that.

Seeing as how the words "halt" and "stop" are exact synonyms, what do you make of the following screen? Does one mean suspend and the other cancel?

On that subject, it's funny how Deutschlanders used to say "Halt", but now have imported an english word and frequently say "Stoppen Sie!".

Attachment (1)

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RE: Ship building ??? - 4/19/2013 2:16:05 PM

Jorge_Stanbury

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Halt means you have already started it before and you decide to stop; some points have already been used on it. But there is no penalty for halting and re-starting later

Stopped means you won't even begin building it when the time to start it comes.

Notice that anything in grey is not yet started, so it is not yet consuming naval points... these will be either "normal" or "stopped"

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RE: Ship building ??? - 4/19/2013 9:28:19 PM

SuluSea

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Just to clarify for newcomers to the dark side there are situations where the build rate is in yellow but no NSY points are being used.

if (delay <= (durability * 10))

-- the ship is able to be accelerated at the cost of (durability * 3)
-- the ship will normally build at cost of durability.

if(delay <= (durability * 30))

-- the ship is able to be accelerated at the cost of (durability)
-- the ship will build normally but there is no cost associated (just delay reduced by 1)

if(delay > (durability * 30))

-- the ship can't be accelerated
-- the ship will build normally but there is no cost associated (just delay reduced by 1)

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RE: Ship building ??? - 4/19/2013 9:41:42 PM

geofflambert

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Is delay the number under build rate?

Also, I've seen lots of discussion about the Japanese "economy". Does the following list cover what everyone means by that, or am I missing something?

Ensuring sufficient oil arrives at a port connected by rail to a refinery

Ensuring sufficient fuel and resources are available by rail to production centers, both in the Home Islands and elsewhere in the Empire

Balancing appropriately the types of production (ships, engines, aircraft, armaments and supplies) to your actual needs

...

Beyond those things, are there issues to be monitored which, if insufficient, might degrade Manpower, for example?

edit: forgot having sufficient supply at various bases

< Message edited by geofflambert -- 4/19/2013 9:43:18 PM >

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RE: Ship building ??? - 4/19/2013 11:38:42 PM

SuluSea

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I'm not sure if you're using it but tracker will make your life much easier running the Japanese side.
I know people do well without it but to me it's a necessity.

Here are the durability and delay columns.

If you use Damian's Japanese Econ 101 document it will tell you everything you need to know about running it.

Regarding Supply.... Part of the beauty of playing as Japan is trying to do more with less especially in scenario one that said there's more than enough supply to conquer more territory than historical..

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RE: Ship building ??? - 4/20/2013 12:48:10 AM

geofflambert

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From: St. Louis
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea
If you use Damian's Japanese Econ 101 document it will tell you everything you need to know about running it.

Thanks again. Is that in a thread I can search for or is it somewhere else?

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Ship building ???